Diablo 4 is bad.

[Delekii]

I know all about last epoch and 1 point doesnt change a build, its the accummulation of all the points that matter not an individual point, unless you have a full build sorted 1 point in archmage infact makes you weaker than having 5 normal mages.

Legenderies are the only thing that changes builds with one single item. Not that 1 talent point.

Talent trees are pretty much the same in every single ARPG why complain about D4 when its worse in last epoch to change your skill around.

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You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, even from just the beta D4 is clearly superior in every way to D3, it seems you are here to talk BS about things you dont understand because you dont like something about D4, there no need to lie about the game just because you dont like it.

D4 has more choice for endgame content that most ARPGs just at release, it will get even more further down the line through seasons, we all know where the delusions are and they are from yourself.

You're saying words that are literal garbage. They immediately and irrevocably prove that you haven't played the game. Why would you do that? Do you think people won't respond to you or something?

There are _many_ points that completely change the way a given skill works immediately in Last Epoch. The majority of skills can be transformed in some way, many in multiple ways depending on the loadout.

D4's talent tree is unbelievably shallow; each point functionally has one choice, for a huge portion of the skills that choice is either a foregone conclusion or completely irrelevant, and the rest of the points put in the skill might as well just level up with character level.

Comparing D4's talent tree to any other ARPG I have played makes it look like you're playing in the kiddy pool. I can't think of a single other ARPG where it compares favorably.

I don't know if you think D4'S devs post here and you think you're going to get brownie points, or you think talking ill of the game here will damage its reputation or something? Maybe you truly do believe what you are saying, despite the gross willful ignorance that would require?

It's fine to enjoy D4 and even fine to enjoy its talent tree and "endgame variety". It's not fine to pretend the game is something it absolutely is not. The game is utterly simple to an absurd degree. Whether or not that is a net positive depends on your opinion.

[Ringthane]

You have seen barely 0.5% of the gameplay though, how many builds did you try? Exactly, because you are extremely limited on the beta.

I don't have to order every item on the menu at a restaurant to know if the food is good. And I'm not going to pay $70 for a game I didn't enjoy the demo/beta for.

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You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, even from just the beta D4 is clearly superior in every way to D3, it seems you are here to talk BS about things you dont understand because you dont like something about D4, there no need to lie about the game just because you dont like it.

D4 has more choice for endgame content that most ARPGs just at release, it will get even more further down the line through seasons, we all know where the delusions are and they are from yourself.

Oh, no! Someone has a different opinion on the internet! I must show them exactly how wrong and pitiful they are!

Except that that's not how the world actually works.

[Arikara]

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, even from just the beta D4 is clearly superior in every way to D3, it seems you are here to talk BS about things you dont understand because you dont like something about D4, there no need to lie about the game just because you dont like it.

You seem to be describing yourself. And you've a long post-history to prove it! Have you nothing to say that actually describes what is supposedly good about D4 save to stubbornly insist that it totally is you guys? I have plenty to say about its failures.

D4 has more choice for endgame content that most ARPGs just at release, it will get even more further down the line through seasons, we all know where the delusions are and they are from yourself.

See? Pure delusion on display. Their bid for endgame content is a pathetic display of nothing. Their overworld is shallow and meaningless. Character skill trees and "paragon boards" offer scarce interesting choice or variety; if they'd been ten times the volume, we might call it decent. Their seasons so far are only pretty words and catchphrases meant to hook fools on empty promises.

[rhorle]

Except that that's not how the world actually works.

You've been on this site for 15 years and you should know that is exactly how it works around here. You are even doing it yourself by trying to show how wrong and pitiful they are with silly insults.

If you compare the launch states of D3 and D4 it is clear that D4 is objectively better and has more content available. Reaper of Souls really changed a lot about Diablo 3. Diablo 4 is building upon that but is not worse in every way and it is silly to defend that view simply because you don't like a certain poster or the way they are trying to counter it.

[Cynical Asshole]

Played it to lel 15 on a rogue archer. Got bored.

Not gonna ask for a refund. I'll probably it play for a bit when I really don't have anything else to play.

It's not a great game by any account. Looks like a really expensive dud to me, that most players will just go through the story with a couple of characters and be done.

[rhorle]

See? Pure delusion on display. Their bid for endgame content is a pathetic display of nothing. Their overworld is shallow and meaningless. Character skill trees and "paragon boards" offer scarce interesting choice or variety; if they'd been ten times the volume, we might call it decent. Their seasons so far are only pretty words and catchphrases meant to hook fools on empty promises.

So the quality of end-game content relies on the amount of useless skills to pick on a paragon board? Volume is greater then depth. Let me guess you are a PoE fan? As I've heard they are the spreadsheet and PhD fans that seem to get awfully upset over Diablo 4 not emulating that style of game.

End game isn't a display of nothing. You have open-world invasions with hell-tides. You have dungeon runs with affixes. You have seasons that will add new mechanics and balance changes. Paragon farming, Item farming, Whispers of the Dead "bounties". Eventually leaderboards. You have offered little to actually say that describes what is supposedly bad about these systems other than "They are bad" or "They don't exist".

If you hate the game as much as you imply you do then why not just move on? Find a ARPG that fits your ideal game better and play that.

[kenn9530]

You're saying words that are literal garbage. They immediately and irrevocably prove that you haven't played the game. Why would you do that? Do you think people won't respond to you or something?

There are _many_ points that completely change the way a given skill works immediately in Last Epoch. The majority of skills can be transformed in some way, many in multiple ways depending on the loadout.

D4's talent tree is unbelievably shallow; each point functionally has one choice, for a huge portion of the skills that choice is either a foregone conclusion or completely irrelevant, and the rest of the points put in the skill might as well just level up with character level.

Comparing D4's talent tree to any other ARPG I have played makes it look like you're playing in the kiddy pool. I can't think of a single other ARPG where it compares favorably.

I don't know if you think D4'S devs post here and you think you're going to get brownie points, or you think talking ill of the game here will damage its reputation or something? Maybe you truly do believe what you are saying, despite the gross willful ignorance that would require?

It's fine to enjoy D4 and even fine to enjoy its talent tree and "endgame variety". It's not fine to pretend the game is something it absolutely is not. The game is utterly simple to an absurd degree. Whether or not that is a net positive depends on your opinion.

I play pretty much all ARPGs, 1 talent point does not change a build or you even notice it in the slightest in last epoch or any other ARPG, seems you like to talk BS just because most players will stop playing last epoch for a long time when D4 comes out, last epochs talent trees give you one clear choice for what build you do its no different, if you are fire wraith you will spec only one way, in all ARPGs theres always a clear build for every class thats just better.

You have not seen D4s full talent tree including the paragon system and combining it with its gear system yet, the last epoch tree has many pointless nodes in every single class skill, there is an illusion of choice in last epoch where you dont have any if you want that skill to be actually good or not.

Do you want PoE talent tree that is just over complicated just like its many systems, too many options for the sake of it is pointless and terrible design. Why you so mad about D4, if you dont like it dont play it.

D4s talent tree does its job more straightforward than many ARPGs that give you an illusion of choice.

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You seem to be describing yourself. And you've a long post-history to prove it! Have you nothing to say that actually describes what is supposedly good about D4 save to stubbornly insist that it totally is you guys? I have plenty to say about its failures.



See? Pure delusion on display. Their bid for endgame content is a pathetic display of nothing. Their overworld is shallow and meaningless. Character skill trees and "paragon boards" offer scarce interesting choice or variety; if they'd been ten times the volume, we might call it decent. Their seasons so far are only pretty words and catchphrases meant to hook fools on empty promises.

You are the one moaning about with only seeing a fraction of the actual game, your opinion is wrong because you dont have access to all the information, why dont you save the moaning until you have actually seen and tested the full game.

So yes the delusions are all yourself because you are making unfounded statements about a game you know nothing about, i played D3 beta and all through vanilla, D4 has already proven it to be superior to its previous game by giving the playerbase a ton of content at release, the content in D3 was very limited, D4 has no failures currently, you not liking something doesnt prove anything.

You have not seen the endgame you know nothing about the game, just pathetic insults on the game because of what, you dont like it being an MMO, you dont like them selling cosmetics, you obviously have unresolved feelings towards D4 or the company, the game has way more content than D3 ever did, also more content than most ARPGs, its a win already.

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I don't have to order every item on the menu at a restaurant to know if the food is good. And I'm not going to pay $70 for a game I didn't enjoy the demo/beta for.

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Oh, no! Someone has a different opinion on the internet! I must show them exactly how wrong and pitiful they are!

Except that that's not how the world actually works.

Its just stupid to start making claims about a small fraction of the game, so yes anyone is wrong to complain without seeing the full game, the game only has to be better than D3 since not many similar ARPGs have even been remotely close to as good as D3 was, we have had access to essentially what a prologue is and thats it.

[Arikara]

You are the one moaning about with only seeing a fraction of the actual game, your opinion is wrong because you dont have access to all the information, why dont you save the moaning until you have actually seen and tested the full game.

Come back to me when you've played the full game and have lost interest. Originally, I'd been going to give it a month before that inevitably happened, but I reckon we'll be looking at only a week.

When the foundation is rotten, it doesn't matter how you dress up the facade.

So the quality of end-game content relies on the amount of useless skills to pick on a paragon board? Volume is greater then depth.

Too bad D4 has neither depth nor volume. Whats your point?

[rhorle]

Too bad D4 has neither depth nor volume.

A pretty bold claim since someone had a solo kill on the world boss while others struggled to kill it with a large group. Is it possible you are to lost in your hate to see or acknowledge what Diablo 4 has to offer?

[prwraith]

A pretty bold claim since someone had a solo kill on the world boss while others struggled to kill it with a large group. Is it possible you are to lost in your hate to see or acknowledge what Diablo 4 has to offer?

While I dono if he can comment on depth or volume, thus far the game is F boring. So slow, so montone, it's the most formulaic aRPG thus far. Though I hold final judgement after seeing the end game

[Mamut]

Because in D3 you either got a skill variant that completely changes the way your ability plays or you get one of those passive abilities that had noticeable effect on your numbers. So every level up was something cool to look forward for, not just some very miniscule stat increase that you don't really notice. Sure, you spend points in D4 for new abilities, too but the majority of your points will go into skill-ups and passives.

Ah yeah, look my Elemental Arrow just changed into frost arrow and now its blue! Oh look, now its Immolation Arrow and its red! So gamechanging!
But changing skill in D4 so it shoots now 3 projectiles that can shotgun and add status if enemy hit by atleast two is very miniscule that you don't even notice?
Unlocking Shadow Imbuement on rogue just enabled whole new playstyle but for you its still miniscule right?

[Katchii]

Played it to lel 15 on a rogue archer. Got bored.

Not gonna ask for a refund. I'll probably it play for a bit when I really don't have anything else to play.

It's not a great game by any account. Looks like a really expensive dud to me, that most players will just go through the story with a couple of characters and be done.

I enjoyed my time in the beta, and I think it's a good game. But I'm not someone who will grind end game stuff just to do the same thing with better gear for 100's if not 1000's of hours. Playing through the game a few times on a few characters for a few dozen hours is worth the box price to me.

[Arikara]

A pretty bold claim since someone had a solo kill on the world boss while others struggled to kill it with a large group.

So? I fail to see why this is anything to care about. The design of these "world bosses" is a mistake in the first place. They are only another themepark attraction, and not a good one. Whether you can outplay them is uninteresting and fails to address the actual issue the game suffers from.

It's a loot pinata. Am I supposed to be impressed?

Is it possible you are to lost in your hate to see or acknowledge what Diablo 4 has to offer?

The problem is that it doesn't have anything to offer beyond pretty graphics. It is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, to be a themepark. I don't want a themepark.

[yasiru]

They use that they are 100% optional cosmetics because it is a perfect counter to anger over it existing. You get the game for the box price and get free updates. Others pay to support those updates. How is that a bad thing? The best part is that the type of argument you are using usually evaporates if the game was free to play or cheaper so it has nothing to do with the presence of micro transactions but about the price.

I was kind of with you until you stated this bold part. So are you saying those said others would not have something to complain about in regards to the monetization of the game? Seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Don't get me wrong, I have really liked the game so I am not bothered by the MTX.

A pretty bold claim since someone had a solo kill on the world boss while others struggled to kill it with a large group. Is it possible you are to lost in your hate to see or acknowledge what Diablo 4 has to offer?

Curious, no offense, but how does someone soloing a world boss prove that the game has great depth/volume?

[kenn9530]

Come back to me when you've played the full game and have lost interest. Originally, I'd been going to give it a month before that inevitably happened, but I reckon we'll be looking at only a week.

When the foundation is rotten, it doesn't matter how you dress up the facade.



Too bad D4 has neither depth nor volume. Whats your point?

I played D3 from beta and several of its seasons, including the last, i will play D4 until the next version comes out like many others and it will be even more successfull than D3 ever was, the real D4 wont even start until seasons roll out.

Your hate suggests you dont like the MMO model, of which just makes the game better, play with friends and clear the content, the game has clans for a reason so you can do harder content together, D4 is not much different to other ARPGs apart from you can see a few other players without being in a group.

[RobertoCarlos]

Ah yeah, look my Elemental Arrow just changed into frost arrow and now its blue! Oh look, now its Immolation Arrow and its red! So gamechanging!
But changing skill in D4 so it shoots now 3 projectiles that can shotgun and add status if enemy hit by atleast two is very miniscule that you don't even notice?
Unlocking Shadow Imbuement on rogue just enabled whole new playstyle but for you its still miniscule right?

Diablo 3 has a crusader flail legendary that also makes a projectile into 3 that is a cone shape so you can shotgun enemies up close

[rhorle]

So? I fail to see why this is anything to care about. The design of these "world bosses" is a mistake in the first place. They are only another themepark attraction, and not a good one. Whether you can outplay them is uninteresting and fails to address the actual issue the game suffers from.

So there is depth and variability to things but because it doesn't fit your narrative it is dismissed. Lol. The actual issue the game suffers from can't be solved because it is something you've created entirely within yourself.

The problem is that it doesn't have anything to offer beyond pretty graphics. It is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, to be a themepark. I don't want a themepark.

Great. You know the game isn't for you. Move on to one that is, right? Diablo as a franchise has always been a theme park and something that didn't require much more than the "lowest common denominator".

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I was kind of with you until you stated this bold part. So are you saying those said others would not have something to complain about in regards to the monetization of the game? Seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Don't get me wrong, I have really liked the game so I am not bothered by the MTX.

Why would people that are fine paying also complain? What is there to complain about 100% optional cosmetics that the only reason you buy them is because you want to. The only one trying to have their cake and eat it to is yourself who is trying to force everyone to hate the monetization model. The game play can be enjoyed to its fullest with just the box price. You don't need every single cosmetic in the game to enjoy the game itself. Seasons are free updates that don't require purchase of the premium (or accelerated) portion of the battle pass.

Curious, no offense, but how does someone soloing a world boss prove that the game has great depth/volume?

How did they do what others could not even in a group? Skill is part of it but is not using skill with the game mechanics part of depth in any game? Mixing and matching what at first glance others would ignore. If you don't like that there is the stagger builds that can make anything with that mechanic way easier. There is depth to Diablo 4 if you aren't blind by other motives. It might not be as grand as some games but it is still there.

[yasiru]

Why would people that are fine paying also complain? What is there to complain about 100% optional cosmetics that the only reason you buy them is because you want to. The only one trying to have their cake and eat it to is yourself who is trying to force everyone to hate the monetization model. The game play can be enjoyed to its fullest with just the box price. You don't need every single cosmetic in the game to enjoy the game itself. Seasons are free updates that don't require purchase of the premium (or accelerated) portion of the battle pass.


How did they do what others could not even in a group? Skill is part of it but is not using skill with the game mechanics part of depth in any game? Mixing and matching what at first glance others would ignore. If you don't like that there is the stagger builds that can make anything with that mechanic way easier. There is depth to Diablo 4 if you aren't blind by other motives. It might not be as grand as some games but it is still there.

Woah there chucklehead. Don't go jumping on my case that I hate monetization. I never said that. In fact I said the MTX didn't bother me. What you wrote sort of came off like you telling others, "Hey, don't worry about MTX. They don't affect you and some suckers will pay to provide for your free stuff." Maybe that isn't exactly what you meant, but I sort of read it that way. My apologies if that is not what you meant.

As for the depth, again I never complained about the game, depth or otherwise. In fact I liked it a lot and am looking forward to release. But to insinuate that a game is full of depth because a pro gamer can solo a world boss that many others can't is a little ridiculous. It is basically ALL skill. Many others could run in there with the exact same build/gear and not pull it off. There is nothing behind a world boss solo that leads me to think the game HAS depth or DOESN'T have depth. As you have often stated ad naseum throughout this thread, we have only seen a small slice of the game, how can anyone judge how good it'll be.......welll, the same thing could be stated regarding its measure of depth. Back in the day I probably could have cleared way more Pacman boards than you but it doesn't mean the game had depth.

[Arikara]

So there is depth and variability to things but because it doesn't fit your narrative it is dismissed. Lol.

Depth? From, what, dodging a couple of hitboxes? Please. What will you claim next, that a puddle can be an ocean?

You need look no further at the joke they call a skill tree to dismiss your claims.

Great. You know the game isn't for you. Move on to one that is, right? Diablo as a franchise has always been a theme park and something that didn't require much more than the "lowest common denominator".

D1 and D2 were not themeparks. D3 was, and it was poorer for it, but instead of backing away from that design, they have doubled down upon it—and thus damned their game to irrelevancy.

[Aliven]

Ah yeah, look my Elemental Arrow just changed into frost arrow and now its blue! Oh look, now its Immolation Arrow and its red! So gamechanging!
But changing skill in D4 so it shoots now 3 projectiles that can shotgun and add status if enemy hit by atleast two is very miniscule that you don't even notice?
Unlocking Shadow Imbuement on rogue just enabled whole new playstyle but for you its still miniscule right?

It is a new skill. Unlocking new skills SHOULD feel impactful. Problem is with passives, which are fucking hilarious and scaling per point into skill.

And yes, skill trees are boring in D4.