[Official] Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible Race to World First

[vizzle]

gotta love this guy, change HALF the worlds schedule so 20 of us can play how we want. LMFAO

dude needs to get a grip on reality.

How does it change half the world's schedule? Does your guild raid the minute after the raid resets? When I used to play on Oceanic servers (Asian here, don't worry, not a "salty EU fan"), raids reset in the middle of the night, and we would raid at 6pm-10pm. But I guess you're suggesting that you raid the minute the raid resets, and you would continue to do that no matter what time it resets?

[The Oblivion]

Hardcore Liquid fan desperately tries to keep the headstart.

salty EU fan sad that NA crushed EU

[Takeada]

there is no way to race fairly when 30% of the race is puzzle solving that can be copied. The only fair race, is same start time, NOT streamed, no patches, no maintenance, and no changes what so ever until cleared. There is no other way for it to be fair, and this is just not possible. Even a small change would impact the race if 1 team is alseep and the other is awake.

Ok... let's get this straight. There are varying levels of fairness that can impact the race, and one group starting 16 hours ahead of another group is a pretty significant advantage over pretty much any other unfair concept you could present with a Tournament realm. The primary issue with a Tournament realm would be the logistics of start time, but considering they manage this pretty well with MDI that's shouldn't be that much of a concern to figure out. But you're basically saying "it won't be completely fair anyways so just keep it how it is", which is fine, but completely ignorant not just to the situation but to life in general.

What you just described... "The only fair race, is same start time, NOT streamed, no patches, no maintenance, and no changes what so ever until cleared", is entirely possible. I'm not sure why you think it's not.

[Gorsameth]

O i dont disagree about viewership, but the couple hundred thousand viewers on twitch could easily watch the players participate on a tournament realm, while the content is released at normal times for the wider populace. Blizzard is sleeping on free money for not officially supporting the race in some means, but again, it does not have to be done at the detriment of the general playerbase. They could literally release the patch, with normal and heroic raids. Say the Mythic Race Realm Goes live on X date, and character copies have to be submitted by X - 24hrs. Then start the races. And if people complain about latency, host a realm in NA and a realm in EU. All that matters is the race starts at the same time.

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Or do it like this with the race being prior to the actual raid. I think that would be big hype for new content as well, and players wouldn't be waiting on gates for story content.

Yes a few 100k watch it, but that doesn't mean its free advertisement that Blizzard should care about.

Do you think there is a significant group of players who only subscribe to WoW because of what they see in the RWF?
Would these people not play if they didn't see the raid in the RWF?

Because if that group does not exist then this is advertisement for Blizzard.

[Xath]

World fastest clear means world fastest clear, no matter how hard extreme Liquid fans are trying to twist that.

World First Clear* also amazing how you never seem to be stumping for CN only EU weird that.

[Relapses]

Ok... let's get this straight. There are varying levels of fairness that can impact the race, and one group starting 16 hours ahead of another group is a pretty significant advantage over pretty much any other unfair concept you could present with a Tournament realm. The primary issue with a Tournament realm would be the logistics of start time, but considering they manage this pretty well with MDI that's shouldn't be that much of a concern to figure out. But you're basically saying "it won't be completely fair anyways so just keep it how it is", which is fine, but completely ignorant not just to the situation but to life in general.

What you just described... "The only fair race, is same start time, NOT streamed, no patches, no maintenance, and no changes what so ever until cleared", is entirely possible. I'm not sure why you think it's not.

Can't do splits on the Tourny realm so unless Blizzard gives the participants template toons or (worse, imo) full BiS on the spot then we're not really seeing a RWF that resembles anything close to what actual players can achieve. There'd also then essentially be "two" RWFs: The one on the tournament realm then the "live" RWF that happens on normal realms. And finally, if it is on the Tourny realm that means that it's a Blizzard sanctioned event which means that anything that happens in it needs to be officiated in some capacity. Currently Blizzard gets to have all the benefits of the RWF with absolutely zero oversight since it's a community event. They likely are in no hurry to change that.

[bloodwulf]

Yes a few 100k watch it, but that doesn't mean its free advertisement that Blizzard should care about.

Do you think there is a significant group of players who only subscribe to WoW because of what they see in the RWF?
Would these people not play if they didn't see the raid in the RWF?

Because if that group does not exist then this is advertisement for Blizzard.

That is a fair point, but id argue there is less viewership for MDI and AWC than there is for RWF, and yet Blizzard still hosts and sanctions MDI. I remember back in the day they even did Raid events at Blizzcon (Hogger raid anyone?) so why support one when you dont support the other. Hell PVP is an almost entirely dead system in wow and they still host AWC.

[Jamukan]

The difference between reset times is 13 hours btw, not 16, so don't throw around inaccurate numbers

[Gorsameth]

A Tournament realm race is the obvious answer to fairness. You would need some selection on who gets to come on to prevent Joe Average from signing up with his guild to quickly clear it on premades and fuck off again with minimal sub investment (which is what Blizzard cares about) but that to shouldnt be to hard. Offer the top 10 from Hall of fame a spot if they want it or something.

And then you can pick a time to start, you can argue X time wouldn't be fair considering the time zone difference but these people are structuring months of their life around the race so you can't tell me they would not adjust their sleeping schedule to compensate.

Would Liquid/Echo care about being 1-2 weeks later on getting the first kill on live servers?

PS.
Gingi crying about wasting months of prep on a 3 day race isn't Blizzards problem. These guilds chose to be this insane, and every raid they get more and more insane by their own choice and desire to compete.

[Relapses]

That is a fair point, but id argue there is less viewership for MDI and AWC than there is for RWF, and yet Blizzard still hosts and sanctions MDI. I remember back in the day they even did Raid events at Blizzcon (Hogger raid anyone?) so why support one when you dont support the other. Hell PVP is an almost entirely dead system in wow and they still host AWC.

I'd argue that there's less viewership for the MDI/TGP because it's Blizzard sanctioned. They kinda suck at eSports and there's something inherently cool about the RWF since it's entirely outside the scope of Blizzard's direct control.

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Would Liquid/Echo care about being 1-2 weeks later on getting the first kill on live servers?

Kinda losing the forest through the trees with this question. It isn't about whether Liquid/Echo care. It's about what the community cares about. If the community still determines that the only RWF that's worth watching is the one on live realms we're right back at square one with the arguments.

[Takeada]

Can't do splits on the Tourny realm so unless Blizzard gives the participants template toons or (worse, imo) full BiS on the spot then we're not really seeing a RWF that resembles anything close to what actual players can achieve. There'd also then essentially be "two" RWFs: The one on the tournament realm then the "live" RWF that happens on normal realms. And finally, if it is on the Tourny realm that means that it's a Blizzard sanction event which means that anything that happens in it needs to be officiated in some capacity. Currently Blizzard gets to have all the benefits of the RWF with absolutely zero oversight since it's a community event. They likely are in no hurry to change that.

I guess you're not familiar with MDI realms so I'll clarify. The realm provides players with items to purchase from vendors at varying ilvls, allowing players to completely customize their gear how they see fit. Once they enter the instance the gear ilvls are manipulated via an instance buff that essentially puts everyone at the same ilvl. Think of it like this, you could go in with character starting level gear and it'd increase the ilvl of the gear - including the stats - to whatever ilvl the devs set for the buff. So yes, it would be different than the "live" RWF, but also provide a fair platform for guilds to participate if they choose.

The fact that Blizzard would have to monitor it is a valid point, especially when it could take days for them to clear the raid, but Blizzard essentially already do this when these guilds raid to alleviate bugs/exploits. They'd require more people to do this, but I don't think there'd be any overarching concern that would require guilds to be monitored 24/7 while raiding on a tournament realm, especially when they're streaming it.

The issue of two RWF is a valid point, but it's also something alleviated by what I mentioned, that doing the Tournament realm before the raid is released would allow guilds to participate in both if they desire. Especially if there were a cash prize, like MDI, I have no doubt guilds would prioritize the Tournament realm version anyways.

I completely get why Blizzard won't do this, I'm just pointing out they clearly have the methods to do it, even if doing it on a larger scale would require considerably more work from them.

[Gorsameth]

Can't do splits on the Tourny realm so unless Blizzard gives the participants template toons or (worse, imo) full BiS on the spot then we're not really seeing a RWF that resembles anything close to what actual players can achieve. There'd also then essentially be "two" RWFs: The one on the tournament realm then the "live" RWF that happens on normal realms. And finally, if it is on the Tourny realm that means that it's a Blizzard sanctioned event which means that anything that happens in it needs to be officiated in some capacity. Currently Blizzard gets to have all the benefits of the RWF with absolutely zero oversight since it's a community event. They likely are in no hurry to change that.

Obv Tournament realm would come with a predefined gear selection same as the Tournament and MDI realm does.

Just a bunch of vendors with all possible gear/trinkets ect at say HC ilvl and nothing accessible except Mythic difficulty raids so no grinding Mythic Ilvl M+ pieces after the race starts.
Or go low Mythic ilvl and disable loot entire so you get rid of that RNG factor while your at it.

[vizzle]

To solve the issue of splits not being available in a tournament realm, players should just be able to play as normal on their normal realm, do whatever splits and other gear-acquiring strategies they want, and then when they're ready, they can copy their character to the tournament realm, one time. So they can do all their splits and whatever else on the first few days, and then copy their characters over when they're ready to seriously push. This would mean no more splits on the second/third week, assuming it lasts that long.

If it were up to me, I'd not allow the ridiculous splits at all by any guild, but it seems to be a part of the game these days. If you stopped them from doing it, you would potentially face the issue of another guild coming up and claiming world firsts because they did splits while the tournament realm guilds weren't allowed to.

Then as for who participates in the tournament realm, that could easily be done by a points system based on performance of the last X number of tiers.

Edit: In response to people saying that there should just be vendors giving out the gear, I feel like that would just cheapen it. It should still feel like that the environment in which they got their world firsts is the same environment that the normal player can experience. Things like that would change the environment.

[Takeada]

I'd argue that there's less viewership for the MDI/TGP because it's Blizzard sanctioned. They kinda suck at eSports and there's something inherently cool about the RWF since it's entirely outside the scope of Blizzard's direct control.

No offense but that's just absurd to think that Blizzard running MDI/TGP is why it's not watched. The reason RWF gets more viewers is because the raiders stream during it, something they can't do during MDI.

[Relapses]

I guess you're not familiar with MDI realms so I'll clarify. The realm provides players with items to purchase from vendors at varying ilvls, allowing players to completely customize their gear how they see fit. Once they enter the instance the gear ilvls are manipulated via an instance buff that essentially puts everyone at the same ilvl. Think of it like this, you could go in with character starting level gear and it'd increase the ilvl of the gear - including the stats - to whatever ilvl the devs set for the buff. So yes, it would be different than the "live" RWF, but also provide a fair platform for guilds to participate if they choose.

The fact that Blizzard would have to monitor it is a valid point, especially when it could take days for them to clear the raid, but Blizzard essentially already do this when these guilds raid to alleviate bugs/exploits. They'd require more people to do this, but I don't think there'd be any overarching concern that would require guilds to be monitored 24/7 while raiding on a tournament realm, especially when they're streaming it.

The issue of two RWF is a valid point, but it's also something alleviated by what I mentioned, that doing the Tournament realm before the raid is released would allow guilds to participate in both if they desire. Especially if there were a cash prize, like MDI, I have no doubt guilds would prioritize the Tournament realm version anyways.

I completely get why Blizzard won't do this, I'm just pointing out they clearly have the methods to do it, even if doing it on a larger scale would require considerably more work from them.

I'm familiar with it but I guess part of the allure of the RWF currently is seeing how quickly guilds can get their characters to absolutely insane power levels. The method by which they do this (splits) isn't entertaining but the pay off definitely is. Remove that part of the race from the equation and it becomes less interesting. I can only speak for myself but if there were two RWFs: One on the Tourny realm officiated by Blizzard and one on live realms, I'd still only watch the latter since that's the closest to something resembling a reality I can achieve.

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No offense but that's just absurd to think that Blizzard running MDI/TGP is why it's not watched. The reason RWF gets more viewers is because the raiders stream during it, something they can't do during MDI.

Blizzard lets players stream TGP and there still is a fraction of the viewership.

[shanthi]

Boss pulls don't really mean anything, as not every pull is created equal. Nor is more total time in combat. At the level of the RWF where skill level is relatively equal, it's more about the brains and information. More time in the raid = more information. More information = more informed brain decisions.

Yeah, except Liquid didn't have meaningfully more real world time on Sarkareth. That's the whole point. Echo of Neltharion largely erased the time edge, as Echo got the benefit of seeing how Liquid defeated, meaning they had to spend far less time figuring out how to defeat him. That's precisely why this is more like a racing yacht drafting behind the leader, not a race car getting an extra lap--the trailing contender gets an advantage that helps them make up the difference. Liquid reached Sarkareth a little before Echo, and Echo spent a little extra time after Liquid killed the boss. Similar total time in raid on that final boss, in combat or not. And both benefited from the other's work on Sarkareth.

[vizzle]

Yeah, except Liquid didn't have meaningfully more real world time on Sarkareth. That's the whole point. Echo of Neltharion largely erased the time edge, as Echo got the benefit of seeing how Liquid defeated, meaning they had to spend far less time figuring out how to defeat him. That's precisely why this is more like a racing yacht drafting behind the leader, not a race car getting an extra lap--the trailing contender gets an advantage that helps them make up the difference. Liquid reached Sarkareth a little before Echo, and Echo spent a little extra time after Liquid killed the boss. Similar total time in raid on that final boss, in combat or not. And both benefited from the other's work on Sarkareth.

This would all be a good argument if the race was just one boss and not the entire raid. You don't get to erase pre-end boss time as if they aren't putting any energy / mental strain on downing those other bosses. It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's the race to finish the raid, not the race to get to Sakareth, and then kill him. The event doesn't start on the last boss; part of what makes it interesting is watching them raid for 16 hour days for several days and them having the focus to keep it up.

meaning they had to spend far less time figuring out how to defeat him.

And that's assuming they needed to see how Liquid killed it to reduce their own killtime, which is a big assumption.

Which again is another reason why they should be starting at the same time, to avoid this nonsense.

[Gorsameth]

Seriously? there are people here who enjoy 3 days of endless splits and M+ farming before the race actually starts?

Surely getting rid of all that shit is half the reason to want to move to a tournament realm. (the other half being the global release)

[The Oblivion]

I'm familiar with it but I guess part of the allure of the RWF currently is seeing how quickly guilds can get their characters to absolutely insane power levels. The method by which they do this (splits) isn't entertaining but the pay off definitely is. Remove that part of the race from the equation and it becomes less interesting. I can only speak for myself but if there were two RWFs: One on the Tourny realm officiated by Blizzard and one on live realms, I'd still only watch the latter since that's the closest to something resembling a reality I can achieve.

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Blizzard lets players stream TGP and there still is a fraction of the viewership.

i think a tournament realm would be better used after the race, something like 2 months into the tier, you do a fastest clear race with the top 10 hall of fame guilds.

In my opinion trying to do the actual race to world first on the tournament realm is a horrible idea and would kill viewership and discourage guilds outside the top 15 from even trying anymore.

[Takeada]

Blizzard lets players stream TGP and there still is a fraction of the viewership.

Yes... but the majority of top contenders don't stream at all to hide their strats that make a significant difference in times. I've tried watching TGP and the people actually streaming it don't perform well enough to be worth watching.