[Official] Aberrus, the Shadowed Crucible Race to World First

[bledgor]

MMO-C Mods and Bias

Name a more iconic duo

MMO mods with bad takes, or/and an unhealthy obsession with a topic.

[bloodwulf]

Holy shit, i leave for 24 hours and people are acting like toddlers on this thread. I see why the liquid guys like to sometimes pull up threads like this on stream and get a laugh. So many people invested more than the raiders themselves. Yeah a global release would be cool, and it would show everything on relatively even ground. But its not likely to happen, and the guilds that matter have already accepted this. Yeah Echo has some sour grapes right now, but they will compete in the next race just the same. Yeah the splits are causing fatigue for the players and that is why we are seeing people like Ben\Naowh and now potentially Meeres retiring from it. Guilds will adapt.

This whole NA versus EU bias is embarrassing. We have a mod arguing with others in a thread, providing nothing constructive from either party and that is all that has happened it appears for a while now.

[Northern Goblin]

We have a mod arguing with others in a thread

I'll clear this up as it's come up a few times, see signature.

I quit months ago, even let them know, and they've just left it ticking for reasons I don't know.

[bloodwulf]

I'll clear this up as it's come up a few times, see signature.

I quit months ago, even let them know, and they've just left it ticking for reasons I don't know.

I get that, after the forum left Boubilles control and changed hands however many times, i bet there are basically zero site admins even working on this derelict anymore.

[Northern Goblin]

I get that, after the forum left Boubilles control and changed hands however many times, i bet there are basically zero site admins even working on this derelict anymore.

Not to take this off topic, but I put my post in on the 19th of December.

So if people are getting salty over a slightly different shade of green on my name, don't.

[Tech614]

Liquid are at the same level as Echo this tier and no one would say so otherwise that they're comparable to Method (unless they're die-hard Echo fans). Yes, Method got world third right behind Echo, but they obviously benefitted massively from Liquid having comms + stream on and killing the boss first. I doubt Method would've killed it had there been no streaming. I do see improvement, but Method isn't there just yet.

Your rules wouldn't work either, most players in the US would already have set foot in normal/heroic on day 1, locking them out which makes the start time not work at all for US. EU moving to NA (or vice versa) won't work either as the majority of people would support their local region. Your only option is Blizzard, but they're not going to cater some 50-60 players for the sake of hundreds of thousands of raiders.

Lets not downplay method at all, to be as close of a 3rd they where while having an entire raid 2 ilvl average lower than Liquid/Echo was amazing and a massive improvement over last tier and they could very easily be a serious competitor next tier if they build off that.

[Northern Goblin]

Lets not downplay method at all, to be as close of a 3rd they where while having an entire raid 2 ilvl average lower than Liquid/Echo was amazing and a massive improvement over last tier and they could very easily be a serious competitor next tier if they build off that.

I'm really hoping we get a three horse race, it's been a long time since we had a non-binary choice.

I know Method isn't everyone's cup of tea due to the Josh incident (among other things) but for race quality, having multiple guilds involved makes for better viewing. BDGG sadly never made that final leap people were hoping for, Method look set to do it.

[Clozer]

Liquid fans don't want a discussion that could cost them their headstart. They need it after all.

[gobarj]

Lets not downplay method at all, to be as close of a 3rd they where while having an entire raid 2 ilvl average lower than Liquid/Echo was amazing and a massive improvement over last tier and they could very easily be a serious competitor next tier if they build off that.

I'm not downplaying them, but there's a disparity between the top two guilds and Method right now. I don't think they're "there" yet, but will be soon. I also think they're gaining faster progression as they can see what the other guilds did for strats. I know they killed it in fewer pulls than Echo, which from what I saw on Method's post-kill VOD, they were super happy about, but that's still largely due to siphoning tactics and knowing what sort of auras to build, etc.

[Xath]

Lets not downplay method at all, to be as close of a 3rd they where while having an entire raid 2 ilvl average lower than Liquid/Echo was amazing and a massive improvement over last tier and they could very easily be a serious competitor next tier if they build off that.

They have Liquid's full coms and vods to draft off of and are the only other team day raiding they are substantially behind Echo and Limit. Also anyone who is good enough for those two guilds will get poached see Andybrew.

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The irony of you claiming someone else is raging as you constantly jump down people's throats for daring to mention the headstart.

Look, we get it. Liquid fans in here really don't like the fact that it sits in your mind as a doubt, if it didn't you wouldn't be constantly replying trying to shut down debate about the head start, not to mention the amount of goal post shifting from previous discussions about this in earlier RTWF threads.

Ultimately you can try and just claim "lol u mad" but that's just a lame attempt to dismiss counter opinion by discarding the other person, which suggests you really don't have an argument. The head start gives Liquid an advantage, especially on a raid that lasted half a week, and that the two guilds killed it within the time frame of that headstart puts into question how fair this contest is.

That doesn't diminish what Liquid did, they made some really smart moves in this tier, especially on the last boss. But the luxury of being ahead really showed this time, and it's absurd to claim otherwise.

Did Echo overprep? Sure, in hindsight, but after the last few races, expecting to be needing to start a second week after reset wasn't illogical, no one expected a good portion of the raid to be poorly tuned (and sorry to those going "it was perfectly tuned" but killing a boss with scuffed attempts and dead people isn't perfectly tuned, it didn't need nerfing and bug fixing sure, but it could and should have been harder) They could have taken the bold decision to do a day less of splits, but again, hindsight is always 20-20.

In the end, I doubt we'll see a raid this easy again, if we do then the contest needs rethinking, because who would take part in a 3 day sprint when they start half a day behind?

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That really didn't apply this tier though did it? 4/9 bosses were dead before they entered, 3 were push overs and on the last boss Liquid let Echo do an awful lot of the early legwork in terms of feeding data (something that we've seen happen in a few races prior when Echo have reached the last boss first)

Bosses weren't constantly being hotfixed for retunes, and we had two notorious bugs at best in the whole raid?

Zero doubt whatsoever liquid was better this tier and echo adjusted their strats on the only two significant fights based on liquid's kills which pretty much puts to rest any discussion about it. Again though we are basically talking about JDG vs SKT both guilds are absolutely stacked and either can win based on their read on the meta and their ability to adapt strats. Something that Echo did that was quite questionable for example was bringing a second monk for throughput cds instead of bringing a resto druid for motw and roars. Liquid imo had a better comp due to that since the 4th healer could be anything so it was much better to cover a missing raid buff with it.

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Why call it an excuse? Do you think it's bad to have a 13 hours advantage? Do you think it doesn't help, one way or another?

Those arguments about beta testing and what not are hillarious. If it's such an advantage for EU guilds to copy NA strats, because NA starts first, why aren't NA guilds simply sitting on their asses for 13 hours so everyone can start the same time? Surely THEN NA would take every race easy. Right? Right? LOL.

Liquid literally did that though? They did splits the entire first half of the week and once they killed nelth pulled to get timers off stream then went to sleep let Echo do the first phase of Sarth overnight iterated on their strat. Then they turned off stream for phase 3 just like Echo did in CN to not allow for Echo to draft behind them and shoot past at the end.

[Mamut]

Liquid fans don't want a discussion that could cost them their headstart. They need it after all.

How many times you will repeat this line? Do you even have anything of value to say or you just gonna copypaste same comment?

[infinitemeridian]

How many times you will repeat this line? Do you even have anything of value to say or you just gonna copypaste same comment?

I mean, Echo beat the boss in less attempts than Liquid, so it's fair to say that that extra day made a huge impact.

[Xath]

I mean, Echo beat the boss in less attempts than Liquid, so it's fair to say that that extra day made a huge impact.

Uh no they didn't? They had like 30 more attempts and that was with video and coms of phase 3.

[LolFrank]

I mean, Echo beat the boss in less attempts than Liquid, so it's fair to say that that extra day made a huge impact.

You'd have to be extremely naive if you believe Echo went in blind though. They have Liquid's POV to quickly reference and correct any of their errors.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I guess it really circles around to..

Does Echo, and other EU guilds, understand before the race this is how its going to be? If so, it's really hard to be upset. You knew. You went down to participate anyway. Then you get upset you lost? If the game is rigged so hard against you and you know it then odds are really high winning isn't the highest motivating factor or you wouldn't participate in something so unjust. Clearly they are there for the views, the pay check, and most importantly the ego because my god it's proven fragile the last couple days.

[Northern Goblin]

You'd have to be extremely naive if you believe Echo went in blind though. They have Liquid's POV to quickly reference and correct any of their errors.

Phase 1 and 2 was Echo going blind. Liquid adapted off that data.

[crusadernero]

Look at it this way:

Two guys is running a 5k run. The first one gets a head start by 30 minutes. The other finish the race second, but does the run in shorter time. As such, second guy won on time.

Now - this can happen if its done on ideal time, meaning whoever clears the run quickest, wins. Not who crosses the finish line first.

In RWF its not done on ideal time. The winner is whoever kills all bosses, no matter the time spent. Far as I can tell, time spendt has never been part of the RWF scheme at all. Just who gets the kill first.

As such, Liquid won.

[Jtbrig7390]

The arguing back and forth about this is dumb.

Worlds First means just that Worlds First. Holy shit there is people in this thread who care more about it than the raiders themselves do.

[Northern Goblin]

I mean, Echo beat the boss in less attempts than Liquid, so it's fair to say that that extra day made a huge impact.

No they didn't. They finished the raid in less days, but they had more attempts.

[Tech614]

They have Liquid's full coms and vods to draft off of and are the only other team day raiding they are substantially behind Echo and Limit.

They aren't substantially behind Echo at all, in fact Echo was very close to having to call it for sleep and if they did it would of been super fucking interesting. You're describing what Echo and Liquid already do to each other, of course method is going to use data from other guilds. It still takes a hell of job to do it while your average ilvl is 2 below Echo and Liquid.

Also Method is not as easy to poach as you think they are, in fact with a push Sco is better at securing funding for RWF than scripe ever was. This was the big upward momentum they needed to get more of that. Also pretty sure Sco never forgot his entire leadership throwing him under the bus as if they also weren't happy to raid with Josh until it became very very public knowledge I'm pretty sure hes going to get his org back competing and getting world 1sts eventually simply out of that resentment.