Diablo 4's endgame be like...

[bbr]

No. That is what the genre has become.

Diablo 3 is when the endless max grinding became a thing. Diablo 2 (when that game first came out) that was basically niche.

Baal runs, diablo runs, mephisto grind,. cowlevel grind,.

at least diablo 3 mixed that up a bit with the power scale in terms of paragons and grinding the portals,
diablo 4 gives a few more options.

But yeah, diablo 2 has been heavy grind,
diablo 3 has been heavy grind,
diablo 4 will certainly be heavy grind as well, but with perhaps a little more variety within each tier.

[Ghost of Cow]

No. That is what the genre has become.

Diablo 3 is when the endless max grinding became a thing. Diablo 2 (when that game first came out) that was basically niche.

This is the sort of thing that demonstrates how - as often as not - it's people's perception of a game/genre/etc that changes, not the reality of it.

This person probably played D2 as casually as possible, never thought about min/maxing, didn't look at internet sites about it since they were less ubiquitous at the time, and treated it like a linear, single-player RPG.

Time rolls on, they become more aware of things, information exposure is easier, and they see D3 in that light. Now it's all about grinding and min/maxing and getting the right items and sets and whatever and advancing rifts. To them, this is "different" somehow because they never saw it that way before, even though it was right in front of them.

[Tojara]

My first real foray into MMOs was WoW so I didn't really know what to expect between content patches, let alone expansion drops. Basically by the end of TBC I sort of realized the game more or less pushes you towards the next thing, and diminishes everything before it. Wasn't as obvious in Vanilla because I don't think Blizzard themselves knew what they were doing. Looking back it seemed so silly to believe otherwise, but being naïve I didn't really know any different. Essentially the genre for the most part always operated like this, and does to this day.

I only dabbled in D1 because I didn't own it, but when I got D2 I basically did the same thing. I would go through the campaign, try to get decent looking gear, then reroll a different class for the first few years of playing it. It wasn't until later that I realized that the gear I got was low range to mid range good, and the amount of times I stumbled upon truly good gear in the game was pretty limited. Opening up my eyes that the true end game to an ARPG is grinding to get better loot so you can kill stuff faster.

It's like when you find out that some of the best gear in D2 was a mixture of rune words, uniques and rare items, instead of just all uniques, rune words and sets. Also depending on the class, sometimes socketed items with blue jewels were the best for that particular slot. Information was out for sure, but it was pretty primitive compared to today. Wasn't until I returned a few years after D2 launch that I realized that some of the classes (mostly the physical related ones), I was gearing pretty badly. That, and not understanding how frames worked for hit recovery and cast speed (etc).

Genres are genres for a reason. Sometimes they innovate to the point that something is added to the mix but they largely keep core elements in tact. Staple of an ARPG is literally grinding to get better gear to kill stuff faster, but you can certainly play it for story and mass rerolling to try different things. I know some friends who play D2/PoE/D3 etc to just try a build with minimal investment only to try something else before it actually gets online. Much like some people play an FPS for a story (if it even includes one) and has no interest in doing multiplayer (which is what the vast majority of people do).

But yeah. Diablo and all ARPGs operate under this premise. It's always been like that.

[BiggestNoob]

I don't mind there being a grinding process for getting optimized gear so long as it's earned and the game respects your time and is fair about it. By that I mean, a "perfect" weapon drop, for instance, should realistically happen fairly often for someone grinding the game a lot. Any kind of progressively earned reward should not be purely RNG gated because the reality is nobody cares too much about play outside of seasons, and if it's unrealistic to do something within a season, it's not worth doing and needs a nerf.

I just hope they start making season-defining mechanics and systems like what they've started doing in D3 and how PoE works and working towards building out the endgame with much more depth in what options are available. So long as the focus of the game is on actually playing it and having fun systems as the basis for that, it'll be good.

[RobertoCarlos]

I don't mind there being a grinding process for getting optimized gear so long as it's earned and the game respects your time and is fair about it. By that I mean, a "perfect" weapon drop, for instance, should realistically happen fairly often for someone grinding the game a lot. Any kind of progressively earned reward should not be purely RNG gated because the reality is nobody cares too much about play outside of seasons, and if it's unrealistic to do something within a season, it's not worth doing and needs a nerf.

I just hope they start making season-defining mechanics and systems like what they've started doing in D3 and how PoE works and working towards building out the endgame with much more depth in what options are available. So long as the focus of the game is on actually playing it and having fun systems as the basis for that, it'll be good.

The focus will be on cosmetic rewards for battlepasses so FOMO pushes people into buying battlepasses each season

[pcgmer]

I wish they would create a Diablo focused on more skilled combat than just button mashing your biggest AOE.
Or at least a mode (like HC mode), built around this.

I never saw Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 as an AOE button mashing extravaganza, unless you were playing Sorceress in D2 or had staff of Apoc (through hacks) in D1.
Otherwise the combat felt a lot more geared towards attacking, retreating, dodging attacks, a reactive affair.

I was playing a pre-bc WoW server recently and remembered how much planning would go into each engagement you would start with even the simplest enemy, and how your tactics had to be changed if you'd engage more than 1, based on your class. It's a dance of skill and it feels very rewarding when you overcome unexpected things like an extra pull or a world PVP encounter at the same time.

I feel like skill (as in personal skill) based combat will always add more longevity to a game than just having to add new content because players have reached the power level of the current content.
Games like Counter Strike, Starcraft, Battlefield have proven this, with games like BF1 even making a large resurgence lately, because it's a game about skill and fun, not about grinding the latest weapons then logging off.

It seems that with Diablo 3, there was this shift in mentality that Diablo is a game about everything exploding on screen really fast then after getting your orange/green dopamine fix at the end of your 3 minute dungeon/rift whatever, quickly start the next one.

I'm not against having this mode for people who enjoy it, but I really really wish Blizzard would try something new with D4, though it's quite late at this point, and they already seem to be heavily invested in the cosmetics fomo type of mentality to keep players playing.

[Fencers]

I wish they would create a Diablo focused on more skilled combat than just button mashing your biggest AOE.
Or at least a mode (like HC mode), built around this.

I never saw Diablo 1 or Diablo 2 as an AOE button mashing extravaganza, unless you were playing Sorceress in D2 or had staff of Apoc (through hacks) in D1.
Otherwise the combat felt a lot more geared towards attacking, retreating, dodging attacks, a reactive affair.

Diablo 2 is very spammy. It's only at low levels or in certain PVP matchups that any "attack/retreating/dodging" takes place. I put those terms in quotes because there isn't really any of that- you only have 2 movement speeds.

When D2 is played optimally, one is speed-running through areas to bosses or named mobs and icing them in seconds. D2 just isn't as flashy as modern games. It might not look that way in Diablo 2, but I really am only speed-pressing F1-F3/W/W/W on most builds. Which is like 2-3 skills. More actually drops your efficacy.

You run past 99% of the monsters in D1 and D2. There is not "dodging" unless walking, teleporting leap slamming count as a dodge in your mind.

I don't know anyone experienced in D2 stopping to fight fallen or goatmen as they race to Baal or Mephsito as fast as humanly possible. It was very popular to auto-run this stuff in D2 and just set up dozens of bots to farm for you- I did it for decades.

There is no comparable player skill in D2 relative to things like Counter-Strike and similar games. Different game design goals.

[Soimu]

Still happens, until those studios become too big to remain passion projects. Just look at CDPR for example as a modern equivalent to the Blizzard story.

I still like CDPR, they make good games even if they fcked up with Cyberpunk at the beginning. They do not have games filled with micro transaction crap and are DRM free and their prices are more than fair for what they offer.
They are still long way to become as miserable and shameless as Blizzard i think.

[Mojo03]

I don't see most people playing more than a week or so of endgame. Average gamers don't enjoy endless grinds for higher numbers in my anecdotal experience. They'll see the story and maybe try out different classes, mess around a bit, do the a raid or 2, and then maybe play it when new stuff comes out.

I think the degen scene will stay active for 4-6 weeks and then people will get burnt out because it'll be too repetitive and not rewarding enough for the time investment. Blizzard will promise to fix it in future seasons and then drip feed small improvements each season.

It'll likely keep the degens around for the first couple seasons and then it'll taper off until the first expac.

Just my guess.

[Segus1992]

I still like CDPR, they make good games even if they fcked up with Cyberpunk at the beginning. They do not have games filled with micro transaction crap and are DRM free and their prices are more than fair for what they offer.
They are still long way to become as miserable and shameless as Blizzard i think.

They're not there yet, and the reception of the greed fest that was Cyberpunk might have delayed it further, but they tried.

[Edge-]

I don't see most people playing more than a week or so of endgame. Average gamers don't enjoy endless grinds for higher numbers in my anecdotal experience. They'll see the story and maybe try out different classes, mess around a bit, do the a raid or 2, and then maybe play it when new stuff comes out.

I think the degen scene will stay active for 4-6 weeks and then people will get burnt out because it'll be too repetitive and not rewarding enough for the time investment. Blizzard will promise to fix it in future seasons and then drip feed small improvements each season.

It'll likely keep the degens around for the first couple seasons and then it'll taper off until the first expac.

Just my guess.

This is one of the takes of all time and I'm sure Michael Pachter would agree.

Again, literally the whole-ass genre and the whole reason that Diablo games have thrived for so many years after launch is because yes, people really do enjoy a lot of endless grinds for higher numbers.

[Mamut]

Just my guess.

That is completely out of touch with the genre and target audience for such games.

[rhorle]

I don't see most people playing more than a week or so of endgame. Average gamers don't enjoy endless grinds for higher numbers in my anecdotal experience. They'll see the story and maybe try out different classes, mess around a bit, do the a raid or 2, and then maybe play it when new stuff comes out.

At the end of 2012 vanilla Diablo 3 still had 1 million daily players and 3 million unique monthly players and it was a grind with nothing really to do at end-game. Even if the "fans" of the genre remain Diablo 4 will be healthy for a long time.

It is silly to label people that enjoy the game and its genre degenerates. Why must you insult people because you won't enjoy something the same as them?

[Mojo03]

At the end of 2012 vanilla Diablo 3 still had 1 million daily players and 3 million unique monthly players and it was a grind with nothing really to do at end-game. Even if the "fans" of the genre remain Diablo 4 will be healthy for a long time.

It is silly to label people that enjoy the game and its genre degenerates. Why must you insult people because you won't enjoy something the same as them?

And it sold 6.3 million in its first week alone. So if it had 3 mill monthly then more than 50% quit, hence "most people". Where am I wrong?

It's quite common for degen gamers to wear the degen tag with pride or have enough self awareness to know they are one.

[rhorle]

It's quite common for degen gamers to wear the degen tag with pride or have enough self awareness to know they are one.

The only one wearing that tag here is yourself. Why do you even care about Diablo 4 when you clearly dislike the genre and design of the game?

[Kumorii]

"No one plays Diablo to grind items" is about the same ignorant take as Cate Blanchett's "Does anyone actually like heavy metal?".

[potis]

This is the sort of thing that demonstrates how - as often as not - it's people's perception of a game/genre/etc that changes, not the reality of it.

This person probably played D2 as casually as possible, never thought about min/maxing, didn't look at internet sites about it since they were less ubiquitous at the time, and treated it like a linear, single-player RPG.

Time rolls on, they become more aware of things, information exposure is easier, and they see D3 in that light. Now it's all about grinding and min/maxing and getting the right items and sets and whatever and advancing rifts. To them, this is "different" somehow because they never saw it that way before, even though it was right in front of them.

Oh my god, someone that has common sense on mmo-champion, insane.

You cant believe how many times you have to explain this to people.

Your irrelevant wrong experience of playing the game at any point, does not contribute to the discussion/delusion that the game has changed.

I still clearly remember the Friday after school when i was 16 years old that i got 2 Tal chests, 2 Immortal Chests, 3 Stormshields, Ber rune, perfect Titans and a bunch of other shit dropping in a span of 2 hours, when the last 2 weeks all i got was Ist at best, or lower tier Titans, and a Shako, barely grinding every day for 1-2 hours with 56K connection, teleport teleport teleport, meteor meteor, oh fire immune pindle, kapoof! got 1 shotted.

Then using all that or Breath of the Dying and Enigma on a PK Warrior and helper for ancients for friends, bla bla, or people begging me to sell them Ali Babas and other items like SoJ, offering me 20 euros in the net cafe daily for items (Why do you think Blizzard introduced Auction House in D3 you weirdos?).

And you gonna have someone that will tell you "Oh yeah, played D2 back in the day, went to level 20!".

Yeah man, you really know how Diablo 2 was played back in 2000-2003, we really have the same gaming experience!

Your opinion on Diablo 3 and 4 is really relevant you are correct!

[kenn9530]

And it sold 6.3 million in its first week alone. So if it had 3 mill monthly then more than 50% quit, hence "most people". Where am I wrong?

It's quite common for degen gamers to wear the degen tag with pride or have enough self awareness to know they are one.

Diablo is the biggest ARPG game in the genre, D3 sold to 65 million ppl and was still relevant until its last season, D4 will do the same, it also doesnt matter if a player stops playing for a while or not they bought the game, there is no game that will keep most of its playerbase active and always wanting to play ever, D3 was a great game and D4 is going to be a great game, thats what players are buying it for.

[rhorle]

D3 sold to 65 million

To be clear Blizzard said D3 has 65 million players which doesn't automatically mean sales. Diablo 3 launched in China as a free to play game with the ability to buy Reaper of Souls. Player count seems more believable since D3 would have had to more than double its sales figures in only 7 years. Tough for a game with no new content (besides the little bit in seasons). The last sales figures I believe they announced was 30 million copies in 2015.

[kenn9530]

To be clear Blizzard said D3 has 65 million players which doesn't automatically mean sales. Diablo 3 launched in China as a free to play game with the ability to buy Reaper of Souls. Player count seems more believable since D3 would have had to more than double its sales figures in only 7 years. Tough for a game with no new content (besides the little bit in seasons). The last sales figures I believe they announced was 30 million copies in 2015.

It had 65 million players by its 10th anniversary, you are not going to play D3 for long without buying RoS, that expansion changed the game, giving the base version for free to a certain group just lead to more sales of the game, and shows how popular the diablo brand is, 65 million bought into D3 regardless of what it cost them in the end.