The longevity of WoW going forward.

[crusadernero]

I think wow has looked great since day one. Even better, one can always play wow - it can literally run on a potato. Maaybe retail is starting to become somewhat heavy on potato PCs, but dammit its nice having a good looking MMORPG that doesnt melt your PC away.

I've played my fair share of "pretty" mmos over the years and they have all sucked donkeykongass for the most part. They looked great, played like shite. So "good" graphics = good game.

Bllzz took an artistic choice on how wow should look, feel and play. Its perfect. If they were to recreate wow from the ground up and make graphics realistic and "good", it would probably cost ALOT of legwork and other parts of the game would suffer.

They are also upgrading wow as we go along. Thats great.

- - - Updated - - -

Something I wonder a lot is how many NEW players WoW actually gets nowadays.
Like not returning players, but NEW.

I dont think thats because of "bad" graphics, if wow doesnt recruit new players. MMORPGs aint the fad anymore + the leveling experience is probably what turn new players off if they do get the game.

[Shadowferal]

They are also upgrading wow as we go along. Thats great.

"Upgrading" seems subject to interpretation.

[crusadernero]

"Upgrading" seems subject to interpretation.

eh, they are? Look at how the old world looks like and compare it to newer xpacs. Compare how races looked like 15 years ago to now. Its a difference. You cant deny that.

Now - Is it something that has quite literally changed how wow looks like? Ofc not.

[Shadowferal]

eh, they are? Look at how the old world looks like and compare it to newer xpacs. Compare how races looked like 15 years ago to now. Its a difference. You cant deny that. Now - Is it something that has quite literally changed how wow looks like? Ofc not.

Oh...you mean "appearances." Nice and shiny...but looking under the hood...it looks a lot like a hamster wheel. Not much depth at all.

[czarek]

Graphic is good. Quite close to perfecto espesially in new zones. Would be nice to just update old content. Actually we have WoW 2.0 or 3.0 or so. Look at this game back in 2004 and now. LOL its totally another game and has been changed couple of times along those years. I know i know. 2.0 means NEW stand alone game on new engine kinda unreal engine or smth. Im not sure we want this. We think we do but we dont ? I do like cartoon way. Dont need realistic. If we talk about 2.0 with engine update. Why not BUT dont change the style. I saw some realistic demo on unreal engine. Ok it looks cool or awesome but... ...but if you think about this deeply. You dont want this to be a shape of WoW :P

[crusadernero]

Oh...you mean "appearances." Nice and shiny...but looking under the hood...it looks a lot like a hamster wheel. Not much depth at all.

Then whats missing here? What do you want?

[Shadowferal]

Then whats missing here? What do you want?

I posted earlier that There seems to be a parallel between DF and MoP. Both we're hidden Isles; Both had a new race and new class...hmf..

I see MoP as well-written on its own even without the later patches. There was a depth to the game that kept me, and I dare say most, logged on constantly. The whole "cancel subscription after a month or so" which is common today, was fairly alien to me back then.

I had a multi course dinner that I took my time with.
Today? Its become a "happy meal" that I'm supposed to be satisfied with. The subscription price hasn't changed, so...something had to give.

And I'm fairly certain that's what Blizz wants anymore in a playerbase.

[Aucald]

I had a multi course dinner that I took my time with.
Today? Its become a "happy meal" that I'm supposed to be satisfied with. The subscription price hasn't changed, so...something had to give.

I hear this kind of argument posted quite a lot, but I always wonder to myself what it was that MoP (or whatever the previous expansion du jour is) had that DF (or the current expansion) doesn't. When I compare MoP and DF feature-wise, they seem pretty similar all-in-all. So what exactly do you think DF lacks that MoP had, what makes DF feel more like a Happy Meal as opposed to the multi-course dinner you had previously?

[schwank05]

As far as Retail goes, I could care less, I play the new xpac and level one character to max to say I did it. I played the first Raid Tier of SL (The best one IMO) and then decided it was just not for me after that. I leveled one character to max in DF and hated how the loot worked for M+ after killing 12 Dungeon bosses with the same group and only getting 3 pieces of loot total across 5 people and 12 bosses feels like a waste of time to me. One of the Dungeons didn't even drop loot for our group.
After that I was done as we were told up to release bosses would drop loot again.

I personally main Classic I played through TBCC and loved it all and have been playing WOTLKC and have again loved it entirely so I see at least another 2-3 years of Classic as a possibility as I hated the game after MOP, so that is when Ill be done.

- - - Updated - - -

I hear this kind of argument posted quite a lot, but I always wonder to myself what it was that MoP (or whatever the previous expansion du jour is) had that DF (or the current expansion) doesn't. When I compare MoP and DF feature-wise, they seem pretty similar all-in-all. So what exactly do you think DF lacks that MoP had, what makes DF feel more like a Happy Meal as opposed to the multi-course dinner you had previously?

The best version of Disc Priest, Brewmaster Monk, Prot Pally, Resto Shammy that game has ever had. Disc in particular was perfect and once you had to Apply atonement; I was out I despised it after MOP. Also Bosses dropping Loot not some chest that will drop 1 piece if that for killing 4-5 bosses in a dungeon.

[Lolites]

I had a multi course dinner that I took my time with.
Today? Its become a "happy meal" that I'm supposed to be satisfied with.

nope, game was hapy meal back then too, its just back then that was enough for you...

[Aesahaettr]

The graphics aren't the problem. I actually like how WoW looks, and don't really care if something is realistic or not.

After trying a few newer games with technically better graphics I still prefer WoWs style.

The issues are that is basically utterly boring these days. No lick of paint will fix that.

[Shadowferal]

I hear this kind of argument posted quite a lot, but I always wonder to myself what it was that MoP (or whatever the previous expansion du jour is) had that DF (or the current expansion) doesn't. When I compare MoP and DF feature-wise, they seem pretty similar all-in-all. So what exactly do you think DF lacks that MoP had, what makes DF feel more like a Happy Meal as opposed to the multi-course dinner you had previously?

It was in my post; I see MoP as well-written on its own even without the later patches.

As you've seen in many a post, I've long criticized the writing even for classic...

What does DF have that MoP doesn't?

[crusadernero]

I posted earlier that There seems to be a parallel between DF and MoP. Both we're hidden Isles; Both had a new race and new class...hmf..

I see MoP as well-written on its own even without the later patches. There was a depth to the game that kept me, and I dare say most, logged on constantly. The whole "cancel subscription after a month or so" which is common today, was fairly alien to me back then.

I had a multi course dinner that I took my time with.
Today? Its become a "happy meal" that I'm supposed to be satisfied with. The subscription price hasn't changed, so...something had to give.

And I'm fairly certain that's what Blizz wants anymore in a playerbase.

Ah well, sure but thats something else than what I talked about. You are talking about gameplay and the overall story etc. I can somewhat agree that MoP delivered better than DF, but often we cant really judge this fully until all of DFs content is out.

I find myself having something to do most days/weeks in DF. Havent unsubbed yet. Lots to do. Sure, theres no "farm this rep to get gear"(mop rep hah) or "farm this for more power" - but theres stuff to do.

[NineSpine]

I hear this kind of argument posted quite a lot, but I always wonder to myself what it was that MoP (or whatever the previous expansion du jour is) had that DF (or the current expansion) doesn't. When I compare MoP and DF feature-wise, they seem pretty similar all-in-all. So what exactly do you think DF lacks that MoP had, what makes DF feel more like a Happy Meal as opposed to the multi-course dinner you had previously?

The game has become more and more focused on repetition and gimmicks over time. Both of those things are always going to be present, but now it feels like the game is entirely constructed out of them.

Let's look at daily quests in the MoP era versus world quests now, as an example:

Daily quests
Travel to a hub and grab a bunch of related quests that take place in the same small area
Go out and do the quests, all of which overlap
The process can take a bit, as you are knocking out numerous quests at the same time
Eventually unlock more world quests as you progress

World quests
Go to an individual world quest
Finish it in 45 seconds
Zoom to the next one

While in both cases there is repetition and what is being done moment to moment appears very similar, daily quest hubs feel like a meal and world quests feel like a piece of candy. The daily quest areas felt like substantive places with a lot going on. World quests just feel like tiny individual theme park rides, often with a cute gimmick.

[Thirtyrock]

It was in my post; I see MoP as well-written on its own even without the later patches.

As you've seen in many a post, I've long criticized the writing even for classic...

What does DF have that MoP doesn't?

To me Dragonflight compares very closely to MoP in terms of story and content. The main difference being that instead of faction quest hubs we have renown. The zones all feel meaningful, the story feels meaningful, the sense of exploration is there. This expansion has brought back the feeling I had when MoP launched, personally.

I'm not saying this is some objective fact, just my experience. MoP was the last time I REALLY enjoyed the game. I loved Wrath, Cata was great for group content, and then MoP was amazing. I haven't truly loved an expansion since then. Right now, I'm putting DF at about equal for my personal experience. It could tank from here, for sure, but if it keeps going the way it is, this might end up being my favorite expansion.

[Aucald]

It was in my post; I see MoP as well-written on its own even without the later patches.

As you've seen in many a post, I've long criticized the writing even for classic...

What does DF have that MoP doesn't?

So just the writing, then? The question would remain the same, essentially - what narrative points does MoP possess that DW lacks? This is a question about details: so elements like setting, plot, dialogue, interpersonal relationships, rising action, etc. What specifically would you say is the main issue or issues?

- - - Updated - - -

The game has become more and more focused on repetition and gimmicks over time. Both of those things are always going to be present, but now it feels like the game is entirely constructed out of them.

Let's look at daily quests in the MoP era versus world quests now, as an example:

Daily quests
Travel to a hub and grab a bunch of related quests that take place in the same small area
Go out and do the quests, all of which overlap
The process can take a bit, as you are knocking out numerous quests at the same time
Eventually unlock more world quests as you progress

World quests
Go to an individual world quest
Finish it in 45 seconds
Zoom to the next one

While in both cases there is repetition and what is being done moment to moment appears very similar, daily quest hubs feel like a meal and world quests feel like a piece of candy. The daily quest areas felt like substantive places with a lot going on. World quests just feel like tiny individual theme park rides, often with a cute gimmick.

To me, that sounds more like you prefer daily/world quests to be granted from a central hub of NPCs as opposed to being distributed across a given zone or various zones? Even though the quests, mechanically and in terms of density, are pretty much the same (e.g. collect X widgets, kill specific mobs, perform Y tasks, etc.) the fact that they're distributed somehow lessens their respective "impact" making them feel less like a monolithic meal and more akin to bite-sized single tasks? In terms of the total number of things to do, I'd say daily quest hubs in MoP and available WQs in DF are roughly even, although I'd give MoP the edge on sheer number, especially in the beginning.

[GabrielKnight]

I hear this kind of argument posted quite a lot, but I always wonder to myself what it was that MoP (or whatever the previous expansion du jour is) had that DF (or the current expansion) doesn't. When I compare MoP and DF feature-wise, they seem pretty similar all-in-all. So what exactly do you think DF lacks that MoP had, what makes DF feel more like a Happy Meal as opposed to the multi-course dinner you had previously?

You know, it's interesting, I ask myself the same question sometimes. I loved Battle for Azeroth and consider it my favorite expansion, so I try to compare Dragonflight to it. I will try to be as precise as possible:

* After Tuesday reset, right know I can complete a few tasks, mainly for reputation that brings nothing to my character, and after a couple of hours, there's not much else I can do to progress except M+ or raiding. In BfA I felt there were more activities to gain gear, and even when it wasn't better than mine, it allowed me to try different builds with Azerite Armor, a system that I loved. I also enjoyed both Island Expeditions and Warfronts immensely.

* Most of the world quests are quite boring, like climbing and racing, which I hate because I can't stand dragonriding. And you could say that it was the same in previous expansions, but at least there the content was fun and lively. During BfA I absolutely loved assaults, and the PvP was thriving, especially in Nazjatar. The amount of World Quests was much larger, and allowed me to pick whatever I wanted to do with more freedom. I never felt that there was any grinding involved, as people claim. AP came naturally by just doing content.

* Some side activities feel absolutely abandoned, as if they did it just to say "there, it's done". Pet Battles, for example: in BfA, we had dungeons, and the trainers all had special dialogs and themes. A lot of them were also quite challenging, especially the achievements. Right now, the trainers are a joke, and I can complete the achievements with any team I pick at random. They barely tried. Also, the events are bugged as hell since launch, mainly the new one with the crucibles, which shows how little they care about quality.

* I loved the story of BfA. Yeah, it wasn't peak writing, but the whole theme appealed to me, as a long time fan of the franchise; just looking at the cover of the Grunt and Footman facing each other pumped me like crazy. Right now, I don't even know why I'm on the isles. The villains are insanely bland, and most of the time I don't even spend it facing them, it's just taking photos and doing other stupid stuff. I don't care at all what happens in Dragonflight, I have zero expectations about the story and its characters. The overall artistic direction feels extremely cheap, childish, and politics driven, but I guess we discussed that enough in its proper thread.

* I hate the fact that they changed PvP gear to only work in battlegrounds. This forces me to constantly change my gear for no reason, but that's just a pet peeve of mine. Didn't had this problem before.

* I can't stand how they're managing inventory now. Not only we have a million of crap on our bags for no reason, but, if you want the rewards for your reputations, then you have to bring random pieces to buy each. Meanwhile, I have a million expedition resources that serve no purpose, yay. I haven't even bothered in making a shop list to buy each transmogrify for a hat, it's an absolute pain. In BfA, we had AP, but it was done right, unlike Legion and SL: you grab it, it goes right into the neck, that's it. It felt satisfying seeing that glitter, knowing that I was immediately rewarded for my actions and becoming stronger, even just a little.

* I despise dragonriding, and the fact that I have a million mounts that I can't use. I don't get why regular flying it's not an option. Maybe because they're afraid that most people will use it and it'll show what a failure the new system is, I don't know. All that time spent in BfA getting my bee, guess what, it's a waste.

* Professions are a disaster. I don't even waste my time trying to decipher it, I think it would be easier to become a smith in real life. For the first time in years, I'm just letting the Darkmoon Faire to raise them. I miss professions World Quests too; just ask me to fish 10 somethings and reward me, why is that so hard? What's this fishing net garbage? It doesn't matter anyway because prices are so low that it's not even worth the trouble.

* On the positive side, I like the new talent system, and the classes still feel fun to play. They all felt much better during BfA to me, especially Holy Paladin, but I guess that won't return. Dungeons are all right I guess, although M+ is getting more and more annoying, to the point I stopped doing it because it became stressful instead of fun. Never cared for raiding, but I did like it during BfA because I was interested in the settings and story. Now the raids are so bland that I don't even waste my time going. The new weekly quest of 5 heroic dungeons is a huge step in the right direction for casuals, and I welcome it with open arms.

I'm still enjoying the game, but that's because I changed my mentality. WoW is gone to me, I still relive it by playing Classic Era, which luckily is thriving right now. Dragonflight is a completely different game, I just get in, do a few tasks that I like, and that's it. I don't care anymore about progressing my character or waiting for the next chapter of the story, all that is in the past. I actually removed my subscription this week and just playing on borrowed time, tokens will do the rest.

[Thirtyrock]

Snip

I respect where you're coming from. A lot of the things you loved about BFA were the exact things I hated, that caused me to quit.

I agree with you on these points
1) PVP gear not being usable outside of pvp. (I don't pvp, so I don't know HOW unusable it is, like is it completely broken and like being naked, or is it more like having a lower ilvl). It should work, at a minimum, against world mobs.
2) Slow flying not being available - I LOVE dragonriding, but I get that some people don't. They should have allowed it by now. I do think we'll see a combination of dragonriding and slow flying being available together going forward into future expansions, which is best case imo.
3) Professions - I used to farm the AH and make lots of gold. I HATE the new profession system.
4) Class design is amazing. Talent system was a HUGE upgrade.

I either don't have an opinion or disagree with you on most other things.

I think I see Blizzard actively trying to bring both players like you, who wanted meaningful character progression from outside of raids, and players like me, who want world content to be optional if I'm actively raiding/M+ing, content that is satisfying. This patch is better than the launch patch for that and I'm hoping they can continue to work on threading that needle, but I acknowledge that it's skewed towards my end right now.

[Al Gorefiend]

I think we can all rest assured WoW isn't going anywhere soon, eventually we will reach a point the game stagnates and the only players are the long term invested and veterans.

I don't have any data to back up if WoW is actually getting new players nowadays vs. returning players. I don't think WoW carries the same clout in the PC gaming world it used to have, I don't think Blizzard is reaching new players through WoW advertising. I don't think it will ever die, but I do think the future of WoW is axing 90% of the servers and allowing cross-faction play. To us we won't really feel a difference, just like even now in EQ2 it feels populated and full, because last I checked there was only a few servers.

Even if Blizzard created the best damn expansion pack to ever grace the game, we will still slowly lose players as the current trend is MMOs and RPGs are showing player numbers dip across the board. I think only the Final fantasy game and runescape are gaining players.

[Zodiark]

This conversation is never going to go anywhere. Every time someone provides a reasonable point about how what you are asking for has compatibility issues with MMOs, you basically respond with "Nuh uh" and just repeat yourself.

Honestly so far your the only one who has commented that I noticed about how updating a game engine would cause compatibility issues. But good job trying to frame the narrative that I'm some dumb fud sitting tapping keys in my mom's basement by stating that I'm basically saying "Nuh uh". I don't remember seeing how I ever responded to anyone with a "reasonable point about how what I'm asking for has compatibility issues". I have mainly been responding to those who have taken my comments or words out of context.

This is a fan site. All I've ever posted about on here was brainstorming ideas, "what-it's". To get people thinking and chat with others who are also passionate about the game I myself have spent almost 19 years now enjoying one way or another.

Of course there are issues with anything you do to change the backbone of a game. It wouldn't be something to be considered lightly but there are definitely Pros and cons to the idea. I am sure there would be pitfalls and pratfalls to contend with and all that would have to be balanced and considered on a risk vs reward basis. What would be better for the overall game going forward. It's my hopes that WoW CAN continue to grow and stay fun and fresh for other future expansions and generations of gamers. MY children are almost to the age where they would start playing themselves. I've been buying WoW merch for my son since he was a toddler as he used to enjoy watching me romp around in older zones like Duskwood, etc.

To recap. I never had the illusion of coming on here OR on the main WoW forums to ASK for anything. Just pose the question and idea to put thoughts to words.

- - - Updated - - -

I respect where you're coming from. A lot of the things you loved about BFA were the exact things I hated, that caused me to quit.

I agree with you on these points
1) PVP gear not being usable outside of pvp. (I don't pvp, so I don't know HOW unusable it is, like is it completely broken and like being naked, or is it more like having a lower ilvl). It should work, at a minimum, against world mobs.
2) Slow flying not being available - I LOVE dragonriding, but I get that some people don't. They should have allowed it by now. I do think we'll see a combination of dragonriding and slow flying being available together going forward into future expansions, which is best case imo.
3) Professions - I used to farm the AH and make lots of gold. I HATE the new profession system.
4) Class design is amazing. Talent system was a HUGE upgrade.

I either don't have an opinion or disagree with you on most other things.

I think I see Blizzard actively trying to bring both players like you, who wanted meaningful character progression from outside of raids, and players like me, who want world content to be optional if I'm actively raiding/M+ing, content that is satisfying. This patch is better than the launch patch for that and I'm hoping they can continue to work on threading that needle, but I acknowledge that it's skewed towards my end right now.

To comment on your last point. I agree with your last paragraph. The world content in this patch is amazing. Very fun. I had overlooked the whole above-ground Fyrakk invasion stuff for the first week. I was on an alt in Azure Span when I noticed him flying overhead. I was like ,what the hell?! Then I followed him to a camp with several different rares and quests to do. I Read about it and realized there are a few different spots these attacks can happen. This kind of dynamic stuff I love. To me that's what made me want to start playing MMoRPG's in the first place. Never knowing fully what might pop up next.

- - - Updated - - -

You know, it's interesting, I ask myself the same question sometimes. I loved Battle for Azeroth and consider it my favorite expansion, so I try to compare Dragonflight to it. I will try to be as precise as possible:

* After Tuesday reset, right know I can complete a few tasks, mainly for reputation that brings nothing to my character, and after a couple of hours, there's not much else I can do to progress except M+ or raiding. In BfA I felt there were more activities to gain gear, and even when it wasn't better than mine, it allowed me to try different builds with Azerite Armor, a system that I loved. I also enjoyed both Island Expeditions and Warfronts immensely.

* Most of the world quests are quite boring, like climbing and racing, which I hate because I can't stand dragonriding. And you could say that it was the same in previous expansions, but at least there the content was fun and lively. During BfA I absolutely loved assaults, and the PvP was thriving, especially in Nazjatar. The amount of World Quests was much larger, and allowed me to pick whatever I wanted to do with more freedom. I never felt that there was any grinding involved, as people claim. AP came naturally by just doing content.

* Some side activities feel absolutely abandoned, as if they did it just to say "there, it's done". Pet Battles, for example: in BfA, we had dungeons, and the trainers all had special dialogs and themes. A lot of them were also quite challenging, especially the achievements. Right now, the trainers are a joke, and I can complete the achievements with any team I pick at random. They barely tried. Also, the events are bugged as hell since launch, mainly the new one with the crucibles, which shows how little they care about quality.

* I loved the story of BfA. Yeah, it wasn't peak writing, but the whole theme appealed to me, as a long time fan of the franchise; just looking at the cover of the Grunt and Footman facing each other pumped me like crazy. Right now, I don't even know why I'm on the isles. The villains are insanely bland, and most of the time I don't even spend it facing them, it's just taking photos and doing other stupid stuff. I don't care at all what happens in Dragonflight, I have zero expectations about the story and its characters. The overall artistic direction feels extremely cheap, childish, and politics driven, but I guess we discussed that enough in its proper thread.

* I hate the fact that they changed PvP gear to only work in battlegrounds. This forces me to constantly change my gear for no reason, but that's just a pet peeve of mine. Didn't had this problem before.

* I can't stand how they're managing inventory now. Not only we have a million of crap on our bags for no reason, but, if you want the rewards for your reputations, then you have to bring random pieces to buy each. Meanwhile, I have a million expedition resources that serve no purpose, yay. I haven't even bothered in making a shop list to buy each transmogrify for a hat, it's an absolute pain. In BfA, we had AP, but it was done right, unlike Legion and SL: you grab it, it goes right into the neck, that's it. It felt satisfying seeing that glitter, knowing that I was immediately rewarded for my actions and becoming stronger, even just a little.

* I despise dragonriding, and the fact that I have a million mounts that I can't use. I don't get why regular flying it's not an option. Maybe because they're afraid that most people will use it and it'll show what a failure the new system is, I don't know. All that time spent in BfA getting my bee, guess what, it's a waste.

* Professions are a disaster. I don't even waste my time trying to decipher it, I think it would be easier to become a smith in real life. For the first time in years, I'm just letting the Darkmoon Faire to raise them. I miss professions World Quests too; just ask me to fish 10 somethings and reward me, why is that so hard? What's this fishing net garbage? It doesn't matter anyway because prices are so low that it's not even worth the trouble.

* On the positive side, I like the new talent system, and the classes still feel fun to play. They all felt much better during BfA to me, especially Holy Paladin, but I guess that won't return. Dungeons are all right I guess, although M+ is getting more and more annoying, to the point I stopped doing it because it became stressful instead of fun. Never cared for raiding, but I did like it during BfA because I was interested in the settings and story. Now the raids are so bland that I don't even waste my time going. The new weekly quest of 5 heroic dungeons is a huge step in the right direction for casuals, and I welcome it with open arms.

I'm still enjoying the game, but that's because I changed my mentality. WoW is gone to me, I still relive it by playing Classic Era, which luckily is thriving right now. Dragonflight is a completely different game, I just get in, do a few tasks that I like, and that's it. I don't care anymore about progressing my character or waiting for the next chapter of the story, all that is in the past. I actually removed my subscription this week and just playing on borrowed time, tokens will do the rest.

Here's what I have gleaned from your comments. I too have felt some of these pains. We all through gaming and playing the games we love want to just play the game as it is sometimes. Albeit with new rewards, etc. However with Dragonflight there are many revamps to older systems like crafting, etc that to really get into you have to do homework and invest a decent amount of time into to fully understand and get the benefit of.

So I get it, sometimes it frustrates me too that I can't just PLAY the game as it was without re-learning a new way to do what I already did hundreds of times over in previous years and expansions. Nowadays gearing up alts and testing them against each other is one of my main ways to enjoy a bit of time in the game. I'll jump into an occasional raid or M+ group on occassion but honestly sometimes I feel like I must just be getting older because I feel like I need to actually PAY someone to jump on discord and talk me through some of this stuff. Still I feel like there is enough to do to still keep me having fun.

If I feel like I'm getting burnt out then I take a break and go play a single player game like Zelda or even another replay of Skyrim. Even so, after a few weeks/months I start to feel the old call of Azeroth again and bring myself back. This is how I've done things for the past 19 years now.