Diablo 4 is bad.

[Witchblade77]

I would bet you'd be able to do almost everything solo. The Diablo games are pretty easy. The default difficulty in the Eternal Realm is likely to be the easiest way to play. So should not be too hard to solo I imagine.

I wasn't able to solo some of the popup events on Beta, so easy is a term relative to individual player ability (case in point Ashava kicking butts of grouped players vs a single player soloing it) and my personal ability is mediocre at best. so if content is not specifically intended to be soloed, I'm not going in with an expectation that I'll be able to solo it.

but I guess we shall see. prior entries, even immortal had story bits intended to be solo, so....

[kenn9530]

Without commenting on the rest of this, I will say that this part is completely and utterly wrong.

POE does give incredible flexibility and choice in build selections - there's dozens of ways to play the end game (which is basically to farm currency to buy gear from other players) and depending on what mechanic you want to engage in, your build options are completely different and have little to no overlap.

In other words someone who has an optimal build to farm Content A will be built entirely different from someone who built to farm Content B, and even within those sub-specializations there's dozens of viable builds.

Each build has its own way to talent that makes the build as best as it can be, just like you are limited on what class you have to be for what spec you want if you want that build to be at its best, so it is just an illusion of choice, you can play whatever way you want yes and still clear most content but if you want a build to operate to its max potential there is only one way to build each build.

[Delekii]

Each build has its own way to talent that makes the build as best as it can be, just like you are limited on what class you have to be for what spec you want if you want that build to be at its best, so it is just an illusion of choice, you can play whatever way you want yes and still clear most content but if you want a build to operate to its max potential there is only one way to build each build.

You're simply incorrect.

First and foremost, operating at "max potential" is meaningless - are you building to clear maps faster? To die less? To kill bosses? To do specific league content? Delving?

There are plenty of variables with plenty of solutions, and even within a given paradigm there is plenty of room to move given personal preference.

Should we keep going? Or do you want to stop proving how little you know about poe?

[Fencers]

Each build has its own way to talent that makes the build as best as it can be, just like you are limited on what class you have to be for what spec you want if you want that build to be at its best, so it is just an illusion of choice, you can play whatever way you want yes and still clear most content but if you want a build to operate to its max potential there is only one way to build each build.

This is wholly incorrect. There is no such thing at all. This post and the previous one are also misusing terminology and misinformed about gameplay expression and operation.

There can not be an illusion of choice in a gameplay system which not limited linear. This is a contradiction.

[rhorle]

There can not be an illusion of choice in a gameplay system which not limited linear. This is a contradiction.

There can always be an illusion of choice. Linearity is not a requisite. It matters what the choice you are picking is and its impact on the design. Any system can have filler options that exist only to give the appearance of having a lot of choices.

[kenn9530]

This is wholly incorrect. There is no such thing at all. This post and the previous one are also misusing terminology and misinformed about gameplay expression and operation.

There can not be an illusion of choice in a gameplay system which not limited linear. This is a contradiction.

Its true in the whole ARPG dungeon crawler genre, you can only build a certain way for each build for the build to actually work properly so its not incorrect, anyone thinking there is an actual choice especially in PoE is incorrect, you are even limited by the class to play in PoE for the best way to make certain builds there is only one way to do it, any other way you build is wrong.

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You're simply incorrect.

First and foremost, operating at "max potential" is meaningless - are you building to clear maps faster? To die less? To kill bosses? To do specific league content? Delving?

There are plenty of variables with plenty of solutions, and even within a given paradigm there is plenty of room to move given personal preference.

Should we keep going? Or do you want to stop proving how little you know about poe?

You are unable to prove anyone wrong, i have several hundred hours of gameplay in PoE, and many other ARPGs, each build has a set path and thats it, any other deviation and you are doing it wrong, its just an illusion if you think you actually have a choice, you dont even get to pick the character you want to play in PoE each char has its ideal builds that are superior with that char.

[Delekii]

Its true in the whole ARPG dungeon crawler genre, you can only build a certain way for each build for the build to actually work properly so its not incorrect, anyone thinking there is an actual choice especially in PoE is incorrect, you are even limited by the class to play in PoE for the best way to make certain builds there is only one way to do it, any other way you build is wrong.

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You are unable to prove anyone wrong, i have several hundred hours of gameplay in PoE, and many other ARPGs, each build has a set path and thats it, any other deviation and you are doing it wrong, its just an illusion if you think you actually have a choice, you dont even get to pick the character you want to play in PoE each char has its ideal builds that are superior with that char.

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. You're wrong.

https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds

This parses only the top ~100,000 builds in terms of their speed to 100 and relative distance to 100 for those that aren't there yet. There are ZERO skills in the game that have 100% representation on a single class. Some come close, but none are 100%. This means that every single skill has at least two options for the class it picks even when picking the simplest, bare minimum, one-dimensional comparison of "reach 100 first", before considering ANY other factor in the game, of which there are hundreds or thousands. Every single skill has players picking multiple classes and being competitive purely from a speed to 100 aspect, before building around survival, or mechanical diversity within a given build archetype, or specializing for the many, many different content types within the game.

Even at the very, very most basic level, what you say is demonstrably and overtly wrong. Every single person in this thread can click the link above, and pick one skill, or one starting class, or one unique, or one talent point, and see the vast and varied builds that use that particular one dimension in different ways. These aren't builds that are just scraping by; they are all fast enough and high enough level to be measured by poeninja. These are all current, active PoE players that have achieved this within the most recent and still active PoE league going on now. Any person who wants to can go today, level up a character, and follow the build of any character on this website and "succeed" in PoE, whatever you measure that as.

Your argument is flatly incorrect. Stop saying it.


Edit: Rofl holy shit, I just realised where I know your name from. You are that absolute lunatic from the Star Citizen threads who still thinks that game isn't a scam! No wonder you endlessly post utter drivel; that's your modus operandi! ABORT ABORT I REPEAT ABORT! DO NOT ARGUE WITH THIS MAN, YOU WILL GET SUCKED INTO A VORTEX OF THE DARKEST DEEPEST NONSENSE YOU HAVE EVER SEEN!

Oh well, I won't reply with any substance again; only to post a link to the evidence that directly contradicts your argument when you inevitably reply again despite being proven wrong (which history tells us you most certainly will!)

[kenn9530]

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. You're wrong.

https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds

This parses only the top ~100,000 builds in terms of their speed to 100 and relative distance to 100 for those that aren't there yet. There are ZERO skills in the game that have 100% representation on a single class. Some come close, but none are 100%. This means that every single skill has at least two options for the class it picks even when picking the simplest, bare minimum, one-dimensional comparison of "reach 100 first", before considering ANY other factor in the game, of which there are hundreds or thousands. Every single skill has players picking multiple classes and being competitive purely from a speed to 100 aspect, before building around survival, or mechanical diversity within a given build archetype, or specializing for the many, many different content types within the game.

Even at the very, very most basic level, what you say is demonstrably and overtly wrong. Every single person in this thread can click the link above, and pick one skill, or one starting class, or one unique, or one talent point, and see the vast and varied builds that use that particular one dimension in different ways. These aren't builds that are just scraping by; they are all fast enough and high enough level to be measured by poeninja. These are all current, active PoE players that have achieved this within the most recent and still active PoE league going on now. Any person who wants to can go today, level up a character, and follow the build of any character on this website and "succeed" in PoE, whatever you measure that as.

Your argument is flatly incorrect. Stop saying it.

Are you unable to understand a simple reality, that each build has its own set way to make it perform to its best standard, any other way you build it is wrong plain and simple.

Most builds in PoE are not proper builds, hell most of the players in PoE dont have a clue about making an actual working build or not, it doesnt mean you still cant muddle through and clear a great deal of the games content.

So its your argument that is incorrect, there is a right way to make a build and a wrong way, there is no other way to play properly. Each class in PoE only has a handful of actual good builds, if you play this type of game if you are not aiming to make the strongest build you possibly can you are playing the game the wrong way.

Look at all those deadeye builds also using different skills and still the trees look similar or identical and thats between different skills where you expect difference in the talents, if you build a lightening arrow build there is only one way to build it properly, if you build a totem build there is only one way to build it, you can have lots of skills and lots of builds but there is only one effective way to make those builds perform so there is no real choice, certain talents are 100% essential and any spare points are used to get more health/surivability or to make sure you have enough dex or something to wield a weapon/armour.

PoE locks you into building your char a certain way and the only way to change is rerolling a new char most of the time, in D4 you have free reign to switch your build around depending on how good it is doing and what legs you obtain, there is no choice apart from choosing the way that makes your char the most powerful.

[rhorle]

Even at the very, very most basic level, what you say is demonstrably and overtly wrong. Every single person in this thread can click the link above, and pick one skill, or one starting class, or one unique, or one talent point, and see the vast and varied builds that use that particular one dimension in different ways.

If you look at the heatmap it shows that certain options are are more favorable than others. It shows that for speed leveling there are still illusions of choice and people favor certain builds over others. Look at the percentages of various things there are even zero percent for some skills, weapons, passives, and what not. If you click on them there will be some characters using it but there are always those who are stubborn. So some stuff isn't picked which plays into their point if not fully based on the argument they are using.

[Fencers]

Its true in the whole ARPG dungeon crawler genre, you can only build a certain way for each build for the build to actually work properly..

This is incorrect and has now crossed into ignorance. Totally and utterly. Define "properly" and "best".

[Delekii]

Are you unable to understand a simple reality, that each build has its own set way to make it perform to its best standard, any other way you build it is wrong plain and simple.

Most builds in PoE are not proper builds, hell most of the players in PoE dont have a clue about making an actual working build or not, it doesnt mean you still cant muddle through and clear a great deal of the games content.

So its your argument that is incorrect, there is a right way to make a build and a wrong way, there is no other way to play properly. Each class in PoE only has a handful of actual good builds, if you play this type of game if you are not aiming to make the strongest build you possibly can you are playing the game the wrong way.

Look at all those deadeye builds also using different skills and still the trees look similar or identical and thats between different skills where you expect difference in the talents, if you build a lightening arrow build there is only one way to build it properly, if you build a totem build there is only one way to build it, you can have lots of skills and lots of builds but there is only one effective way to make those builds perform so there is no real choice, certain talents are 100% essential and any spare points are used to get more health/surivability or to make sure you have enough dex or something to wield a weapon/armour.

PoE locks you into building your char a certain way and the only way to change is rerolling a new char most of the time, in D4 you have free reign to switch your build around depending on how good it is doing and what legs you obtain, there is no choice apart from choosing the way that makes your char the most powerful.

See my previous response for all further posts from you on this topic:

Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. You're wrong.

https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds

ABORT ABORT I REPEAT ABORT! DO NOT ARGUE WITH THIS MAN, YOU WILL GET SUCKED INTO A VORTEX OF THE DARKEST DEEPEST NONSENSE YOU HAVE EVER SEEN!

Oh well, I won't reply with any substance again; only to post a link to the evidence that directly contradicts your argument when you inevitably reply again despite being proven wrong (which history tells us you most certainly will!)

If you look at the heatmap it shows that certain options are are more favorable than others. It shows that for speed leveling there are still illusions of choice and people favor certain builds over others. Look at the percentages of various things there are even zero percent for some skills, weapons, passives, and what not. If you click on them there will be some characters using it but there are always those who are stubborn. So some stuff isn't picked which plays into their point if not fully based on the argument they are using.

"There are always those who are stubborn" is not an argument; every character on this site is competitive enough to appear on PoE Ninja; that means they got to atleast level 85, and atleast fast enough to appear on the list. Every single character on that site is "succesful" insofar as they succeeded to the point of being on the site. If your argument is "they didn't get to 100 before someone else who used the same skill, and thus they made a wrong choice", that is a completely nonsensical answer - without comparing literally every other variable you cannot possibly contend that one specific choice alone was the cause of that difference.

Let's take the most direct and obvious point of contention with this argument: Races. In previous leagues there were races (there is one this league but you can't build whatever you want in that thread, so it would conflate the variables). In every race, there are numerous different characters with different builds at or near the top of the ladder, and for those sharing the top, there are numerous variations from one character to the next - often due to what drops or becomes available to them. If the choice was only an illusion, every one of those people aiming to finish first would play the same build using the same gear and the same talent tree, but they don't. Do you think everyone but the one finishing first just "picked the wrong choice"? No, of course not. Maybe they got a lucky drop, or didn't. Maybe if they had have picked one less defensive talent they would have won, or would have died. It's just impossible to know, because there are far too many variables, and DIMENSIONS of variables, to ever know outright. Then, we realise that the vast majority of people playing the game aren't racing to reach 100; they are building characters to play comfortably in the content they enjoy, or to farm currency effectively to gear future characters, or any number of other reasons to level a character in the game. Before you claim that there is "ONE WAY" to correctly build a character correctly, you first have to define what is meant by correctly, how do you measure it, what it means, and prove that that was the goal of everyone who "failed" to do so.

What Kenn is saying, that there is only one way to build every build, is simply wrong. Some activities need more or less dps, some activities need more or less aoe or single target, some builds need spread damage or condensed damage, some builds need physical defense, some builds need magical defense, some builds need specific TYPES of physical or magical defense.. the list goes on and on.

Kenn's one-dimensional thinking is the reason he is able to believe he is correct even when he isn't. There might be one specific "best build" for a particular skill and a particular character specifically for the purpose of leveling quickly to level 100 for one specific player, but the chance that the exact same set of choices is exactly correct for another player or another activity is nearly zero. There is an immeasurable gamut of variables that affect "correct" choices, and it's unlikely that we will ever know what is the BEST amalgamation of choices for a given skill in a given scenario.

[rhorle]

"There are always those who are stubborn" is not an argument

It most certainly is when some options have so low of representation that it is displayed as 0%. Some of the characters are not even level 100 so I don't think you fully understand what that site is telling you or how they get on it. You are as guilty of one dimensional thinking as you accuse another poster of being because you think you are right even no matter what.

There are "correct" choices for games. That is why popular builds become popular amongst the community while other builds do not even if they are technically viable. There are certain builds by virtue of performance that become some of the only choices for those who are competitive. Just like the heat map you provide indicates. There are certain things that most choose because of the benefit they offer. They don't have to pick those because other options can work but you are handicapping yourself in the process.

That illusion of choice that some are stubborn enough to think they have and push through the struggle. That is why 30,921 characters use a bow and 5 use a claw/mace (none of which are level 100).

[Aucald]

This thread isn't about Path of Exile and whatever qualities do or don't make it an ARPG or what have you. Let's pivot back to discussion various criticisms of Diablo 4 as opposed to derailing the thread into pointless game vs. game tangents.

[Delekii]

This thread isn't about Path of Exile and whatever qualities do or don't make it an ARPG or what have you. Let's pivot back to discussion various criticisms of Diablo 4 as opposed to derailing the thread into pointless game vs. game tangents.

It's nothing to do with game vs. game; it's to do with the fact that D4 fundamentally is far too simplistic compared to other games in the space to be relevant. Pretending that D4 is the same as other games with regards to complexity because other games present simply an illusion of choice and not actual choices is simply wrong, and it's important to show that.

Unless Blizzard is hiding a massive gamut of features from all player testing and information to date, the game is monumentally simple. It could be true thatt the paragon system opens up a world of choice and discovery, and if it does, I'll happily eat my hat. As it stands, the video discussing paragons in D4 discussed the choices made available to the player while mouse hovering over 3 nodes giving +5 dexterity each. If that's the best possible way they could sell that system, believing it will fundamentally change the current game state requires monumental suspension of rationality.

[Aucald]

--- snip ---

I'm referring to the mostly unrelated series of exchanges between you and @kenn9530.

[Kumorii]

I'll happily eat my hat. As it stands, the video discussing paragons in D4 discussed the choices made available to the player while mouse hovering over 3 nodes giving +5 dexterity each. If that's the best possible way they could sell that system, believing it will fundamentally change the current game state requires monumental suspension of rationality.

Just curious... you do know that there is more to the paragon board than +5 to stats.. right?

[rhorle]

It's nothing to do with game vs. game; it's to do with the fact that D4 fundamentally is far too simplistic compared to other games in the space to be relevant.

None of the Diablo games have been complex and have always been relevant.

[Delekii]

It most certainly is when some options have so low of representation that it is displayed as 0%. Some of the characters are not even level 100 so I don't think you fully understand what that site is telling you or how they get on it. You are as guilty of one dimensional thinking as you accuse another poster of being because you think you are right even no matter what.

There are "correct" choices for games. That is why popular builds become popular amongst the community while other builds do not even if they are technically viable. There are certain builds by virtue of performance that become some of the only choices for those who are competitive. Just like the heat map you provide indicates. There are certain things that most choose because of the benefit they offer. They don't have to pick those because other options can work but you are handicapping yourself in the process.

That illusion of choice that some are stubborn enough to think they have and push through the struggle. That is why 30,921 characters use a bow and 5 use a claw/mace (none of which are level 100).

The fact that there are avenues of failure has no relevance to there being many, many avenues of success. There are absolutely wrong choices; that doesn't in any way mean that there aren't multiple correct ones in any given scenario.

D4 has far, far fewer choices, and each choice has far, far fewer dimensions to it. I hope I am wrong, but for that to be the case, they would have had to be hiding a full game worth of systems and mechanics behind their game.

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None of the Diablo games have been complex and have always been relevant.

D1 was functionally the first game in the genre; definitionally it pushed the boundaries. D2 was massively complex, and if you believe otherwise you probably didn't know D2 half as well as you think you did. D3 has made nearly no impact on the genre; there have been zero games that followed in its footsteps of simplifying the genre despite its overwhelming financial success. Nobody wants to make a D3 clone, while there are many games that clearly got their inspiration from D2, and later PoE.

[FelPlague]

It is so weird seeing people here complaining about D4's talent system compared to D3 when it's literally just a return to D2's style of more down to earth trees.

Especially since D4"s tree is better then D2's, cause on D2 you didn't even customize your skill at all, you just unlocked them and buffed their stats.

[Kumorii]

D1 was functionally the first game in the genre; definitionally it pushed the boundaries. D2 was massively complex, and if you believe otherwise you probably didn't know D2 half as well as you think you did. D3 has made nearly no impact on the genre; there have been zero games that followed in its footsteps of simplifying the genre despite its overwhelming financial success. Nobody wants to make a D3 clone, while there are many games that clearly got their inspiration from D2, and later PoE.

D4 skill tree is so far more complex than D2, but D2's complexity wasn't in the skill trees... they are pretty basic.
Stats in D2 were also very basic and everyone is using as little stats as possible in str/dex for whatever gear they require, then all in VIT... D4 coupled with paragon board will be more complex in the stats department... and not by a small margin. Quite heavily...leagues above what D2 stats brought.

Most of D2's complexity comes from their items. And most of the complexity lies in FCR / FHR or IAS breakpoints, which isn't readily available. I predict the "complexity" in D4 will lie in lucky hit since that's currently the stat that requires to be figured out. It's a bit confusing. But then again, people think "taking time to figure out" as it's a complex system, but that's not always the case.

I'm not knocking on D2, it's fucking great... but yeah, there's little complexity in both skills and stats in that game. Affixes is where it's at.