How to better distinguish and develop the human kingdoms ?

[Dancaris]

We only need to distinguish Stromguard from Stormwind if its necessary.
1.Lordaeron is kingdom (republic?) of Forsaken. Separate enough, if you ask me. Both visualy, technicaly and publically(heh).
2.Dalaran - already stands out from generic humans.
3-4.Gulneas and Kul-Tiras too.
5.Alterac right know do not exist. IF there will be some reviving (hopes not, Alterac filled already with dwarves, orcs and bandits, much better to me to give Forsaken, Gilneas, Stormpike and Frostwolves parts of it and call it a day) - my bet to make it more about rogue-kingdom, with all that flavour of crimes, corruption and schemes. Rogues, heh.
And now we have two identical aestetic-vise kingdoms of Strom and Storm. My wish - or to merge them (easy way, just slap red banners unstead of blue and here we go - Stromgarde) or make it kingdom of warriors. All that barbarians from D3 vibes.

[Aleksej89]

Blizzard struggles to distinguish between humans, dwarves, gnomes and draenei.
Heck even orcs are often described as green humans, depending on the expansion.

I do not think the current blizz writers can nor want to make such """detailed""" distinctions.
Its more of a mobile game kind of writing these days.

[Nymrohd]

I think if we still had faction war, a Horde aligned Alterac would have been an interesting way to have Horde Humans, however weird that would be. Alterac itself barely is there on the map though so without some major changes to Lordaeron (beyond an update and beyond a simple revamp like Arathi got) it wouldn't really work.

Strom seems to me to be more about homesteaders than about barbarians; it is the kingdom at the border of human civilization with independent farmers and ranchers constantly having to guard themselves from Amani aggression and likely a kingdom with a strong force of roaming knights. That cannot translate that well into WoW simply because there just isn't enough land in Arathor to give that feeling that each farm is alone.

For Stromwind I think the biggest element historically has always been faith. If anything I'd see Lordaeron being progressive about its faith while Stormwind placing it at a much higher level. I am even surprised at the importance of nobility; imo they should have elevated the clerical class instead.

With Lordaeron a strong nobility makes sense because the kingdom is significant. The living elements of Lordaeron should survive in Argent Dawn/Scarlet Crusade held lands; Hearthglen and Tyr's Hand should hold a lot of people.

Gilneas has a character I suppose but mostly because of how much it copies a real world theme.

Dalaran is weird imo. Yes the city itself is extremely cosmopolitan. Yet the leadership is almost entirely human and the fact that most of them are humans led to a porgrom just a scant few years ago (and it was not just Jaina, Modera allowed it too and had allowed Garithos to do the same). Normally the non-human population of Dalaran should feel less than welcome.

Kul Tiras was excellent. If I could remake it I'd have removed the Quillboar/Deadwash area and instead have added some of the Channel Islands as part of that zone but still we got a kingdom with a capital and several major towns and four noble houses with a unique character each. It would be interesting to see what will replace the Stormsong family and whether Azshara always was the Tidemother or she managed to take over just in the past few decades (and living on top of part of N'zoth must have had some effect on those people).

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I think if we still had faction war, a Horde aligned Alterac would have been an interesting way to have Horde Humans, however weird that would be. Alterac itself barely is there on the map though so without some major changes to Lordaeron (beyond an update and beyond a simple revamp like Arathi got) it wouldn't really work.

Strom seems to me to be more about homesteaders than about barbarians; it is the kingdom at the border of human civilization with independent farmers and ranchers constantly having to guard themselves from Amani aggression and likely a kingdom with a strong force of roaming knights. That cannot translate that well into WoW simply because there just isn't enough land in Arathor to give that feeling that each farm is alone.

For Stromwind I think the biggest element historically has always been faith. If anything I'd see Lordaeron being progressive about its faith while Stormwind placing it at a much higher level. I am even surprised at the importance of nobility; imo they should have elevated the clerical class instead.

With Lordaeron a strong nobility makes sense because the kingdom is significant. The living elements of Lordaeron should survive in Argent Dawn/Scarlet Crusade held lands; Hearthglen and Tyr's Hand should hold a lot of people.

Gilneas has a character I suppose but mostly because of how much it copies a real world theme.

Dalaran is weird imo. Yes the city itself is extremely cosmopolitan. Yet the leadership is almost entirely human and the fact that most of them are humans led to a porgrom just a scant few years ago (and it was not just Jaina, Modera allowed it too and had allowed Garithos to do the same). Normally the non-human population of Dalaran should feel less than welcome.

Kul Tiras was excellent. If I could remake it I'd have removed the Quillboar/Deadwash area and instead have added some of the Channel Islands as part of that zone but still we got a kingdom with a capital and several major towns and four noble houses with a unique character each. It would be interesting to see what will replace the Stormsong family and whether Azshara always was the Tidemother or she managed to take over just in the past few decades (and living on top of part of N'zoth must have had some effect on those people).

Stromgarde could have a strong knights force indeed, but I have always felt that due to their martial tradition and history of constant war with the Amani Trolls and Alterac and possibly other human kingdoms (I think that at least a few conflicts with Lordaeron and Gilneas may have happened) that all stromic society is involved in the defense, and that they are much like the swiss with a very strong and disciplined infantry that uses long spear and pikes and shields to crush enemy infantry and cavalry charges with deadly effect.

[Shadowferal]

That's INCREDIBLY subjective, and there were plenty of people who joined the Cult of the Damned despite that leaving them part of an omnicidal cult, the Forsaken are a MUCH easier sell than that.

It makes a weird sense.
Ignorant peasantry would consider such a cult if the right words were used. "Damned" is so...negative. "Free" would be better. Since that perspective isn't wrong.

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I think if we still had faction war, a Horde aligned Alterac would have been an interesting way to have Horde Humans, however weird that would be.

Not so weird to me. I played that idea out a while ago in my rewrite...I mean throw enough coin at a greedy noble, right?
I couldn't get further than that though. The factions want for trust...and the security and stability that it engenders. And that's worth more than gold.

[Nymrohd]

Not so weird to me. I played that idea out a while ago in my rewrite...I mean throw enough coin at a greedy noble, right?
I couldn't get further than that though. The factions want for trust...and the security and stability that it engenders. And that's worth more than gold.

The thing is, Alterac city pretty much existed as a trade route. It controlled an important mountain pass so much trade between different areas in Lordaeron had to pass through Alterac City.
In current Lordaeron Alterac City has no use. There is no trade going through well . . . is there any mention of trade, one of the guiding forces of civilization, anywhere in Warcraft in general?

[Shadowferal]

There is no trade going through well . . . is there any mention of trade, one of the guiding forces of civilization, anywhere in Warcraft in general?

None that I've read.
Hmm...too focused on "war" craft. I believe the closest to trade we get is in MoP. (Recall the escort/guard duty for Grummles)

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Flavor brainstorm like it's an RTS and then represent the 'unit's' and 'tech' ingame, then pair each human kingdom up with one or two of the other races in the Alliance.


Stormwind - Bronzebeards of course. They have the deeprun tram and everything. Nothing's going to shake their unity.

Stromgarde - Wildhammer, because of the proximity of Forest Trolls and the shared enmity, the humans of Arathor are natural allies to them.

Gilneas - Dark Irons industrial focus compliments Gilneas nicely. The Dark Irons can mass produce things and Gilneas can do fine detail work and ship things, they'd be an economic powerhouse again.

Kul'tiras - Can have enclaves for all the dwarves, but its naval location makes it perfect for setting up ties with the Frostborn in NR too.

Dalaran - Ideally it should shift back to the Alliance and be a center for all mages on the 'regulate magic' view of magic use. Prominently Nelfs, draenei, dwarves, with gnomes, worgen, and velfs on the 'lets experiment more' end of things.

Alterac I'd split into those raised as Forsaken or willingly living in the Horde with the expectation that they eventually turn into Forsaken, and living human survivors that set up a city-state somewhere else, or merge back into Stromgarde or join Gilneas/Kul'tiras. Functionally Alterac is a 'dead' nation.

Lordaeron - Blizz seems to be trying to kill the Lordaeron human identity post BFA, unless we see a 'light undead' allied race it seems like they're using the Forsaken for this, which I'm not a fan of since I prefer my Forsaken to view themselves as a new nation and to recruit undead from all nations. It's hard to say how Northern EK could be dividedup between the Alliance and the Horde now that Calia's in the mix. This thing is a whole mess.

Gilneans are very close to Night Elves now, thanks to the origins of the Worgen curse, of the Night Elves' help of gilneans in their hour of need and of them getting closer to NE culturally with them having adopted druidism to a degree and some Worgens having joined the Sentinels.

It would be hard for Dark Irons to match this bond with NE, even if I can see the two working together.

[Skytotem]

Gilneans are very close to Night Elves now, thanks to the origins of the Worgen curse, of the Night Elves' help of gilneans in their hour of need and of them getting closer to NE culturally with them having adopted druidism to a degree and some Worgens having joined the Sentinels.

It would be hard for Dark Irons to match this bond with NE, even if I can see the two working together.

I'd have Gilneas do both tbh, worgen gilneans closer with nelves and human gilneans closer to Dark irons.

[Myradin]

Flavor brainstorm like it's an RTS and then represent the 'unit's' and 'tech' ingame, then pair each human kingdom up with one or two of the other races in the Alliance.


Stormwind - Bronzebeards of course. They have the deeprun tram and everything. Nothing's going to shake their unity.

Stromgarde - Wildhammer, because of the proximity of Forest Trolls and the shared enmity, the humans of Arathor are natural allies to them.

Gilneas - Dark Irons industrial focus compliments Gilneas nicely. The Dark Irons can mass produce things and Gilneas can do fine detail work and ship things, they'd be an economic powerhouse again.

Kul'tiras - Can have enclaves for all the dwarves, but its naval location makes it perfect for setting up ties with the Frostborn in NR too.

Dalaran - Ideally it should shift back to the Alliance and be a center for all mages on the 'regulate magic' view of magic use. Prominently Nelfs, draenei, dwarves, with gnomes, worgen, and velfs on the 'lets experiment more' end of things.

Alterac I'd split into those raised as Forsaken or willingly living in the Horde with the expectation that they eventually turn into Forsaken, and living human survivors that set up a city-state somewhere else, or merge back into Stromgarde or join Gilneas/Kul'tiras. Functionally Alterac is a 'dead' nation.

Lordaeron - Blizz seems to be trying to kill the Lordaeron human identity post BFA, unless we see a 'light undead' allied race it seems like they're using the Forsaken for this, which I'm not a fan of since I prefer my Forsaken to view themselves as a new nation and to recruit undead from all nations. It's hard to say how Northern EK could be dividedup between the Alliance and the Horde now that Calia's in the mix. This thing is a whole mess.

I was thinking something like this, seeing the title.

This approach helps both human lore AND the other races of the alliance, instead of just heaping spotlight all on one race.

[Oneirophobia]

Lots of words and rumors and strange phenomenons that they can't explain and with surely a lot of contradicting reports on what is going on. They don't have TV with live news or the Internet.

Right, so half a dozen random farmers from Arathi just happened to correctly assume a gateway to the afterlife opened and traveled there, but figuring any of this out is completely beyond an organized crime syndicate.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Now that I am thinking about people and countries with legendary martial prowess such as the Normans or the Swiss, and after re-reading how Danath Trollbane was described as a mercenary before becoming a commander of the Alliance in the Second War I do think that Stromgarde often lends its formidable knights and infantrymen as mercenaries to other kingdoms and nations so its army will stay sharp and grow in experience even during times of peace instead of staying inactive and getting sloppy without a war or regular enough attacks from the Trolls to keep them busy.

This is also done with the purpose of getting more informations on the situations and strengths and weaknesses of the other kingdoms and races, and to use them in case these turn into foes in the future or to better work with them in case Stromgarde itself is dragged into war.

[Combatbutler]

Why waste your time on humans? The non humans are far more important.

[Shadowferal]

Why waste your time on humans? The non humans are far more important.

The nonhuman isn't so..."non"human.

[Combatbutler]

The nonhuman isn't so..."non"human.

Everything is based on humanity yadda yadda, doesn't make humans any less narrative cancer.

[Soon-TM]

The current bunch of hacks writing team struggles hard enough as it is to tell Orcs apart from Humans, but if they were to be suddenly enlightened (or better yet, replaced by actual writers), they could do something along these lines:

• Stormwind: cosmopolitan, populous, wealthy, but with comparatively less military power and with deep political internal issues. Think of 14th century Florence.
  
• Stromgarde: isolationist, backwards, deeply religious, with a strong military despite the sparse population. They fiercely support their king. Basically, the polar opposite of SW, along the lines of the North in GoT.
  
• Kul Tiras is pretty well done in-game, but being broadly based on 17th century England, they should be much more imperialist than the other kingdoms, and the government's feudal nature should be underlined - after all, post-Civil War English kings had much less personal power than their colleagues from e.g. Spain, Russia and especially France, whereas in-game the Proudmoores are effectively indistinguishable from, say, the Wrynns.
  
• Gilneas is a quite hard nut to crack. Their 19th England (and especially Londoner) aesthetics do not mesh in the slightest with their backstory, i.e. a hardcore isolationist kingdom ruled by a hawkish leader. Despite said traits, the country is somehow an important trade and industrial power, comparable to its RL inspiration. On top of that, said kingdom being overrun by a bunch of WMD-using zombies throws everything out of whack, so if Gilneas was to be ever restored, it should be something like the USSR on the years immediately following WWII: a despotic, yet popular government, extremely distrustful towards their recent enemies and even some of its allies; a war-torn, impoverished (even blighted at some points) landscape, decorated here and there with nelf settlements.
  
• Lordaeron has always stood out on its own, even if nu-Blizzard has tried their best to turn it into generic fantasy kingdom #35689274, but with gray-skinned inhabitants. Cata had found a veritable diamond in the rough, in this case Sylvanas' appeal to Lordaeronian patriotism. It could be rekindled into a sort of "we'll behave, but don't mess with us again or else..." stance.

[Aresk]

There is no trade going through well . . . is there any mention of trade, one of the guiding forces of civilization, anywhere in Warcraft in general?

Darnassus was mentioned as a trade hub for the night elves with the Alliance, and the night elves suspension of the trade agreement with the Horde after Wrath is one of the inciting incidents for increased hostilities in Ashenvale during the Shattering. The Deeprun Tram was also built, in part, to help with trade between Stormwind and Ironforge (in addition to troop movement). With respect to the human kingdoms, they became pretty isolated after WC2 and even more so after WC3, without a lot of talk of trade between them, so I'm not sure if there's really any identity as a trading hub among the human kingdom identities.

[Nymrohd]

The current bunch of hacks writing team struggles hard enough as it is to tell Orcs apart from Humans, but if they were to be suddenly enlightened (or better yet, replaced by actual writers), they could do something along these lines:

• Stormwind: cosmopolitan, populous, wealthy, but with comparatively less military power and with deep political internal issues. Think of 14th century Florence.
  
• Stromgarde: isolationist, backwards, deeply religious, with a strong military despite the sparse population. They fiercely support their king. Basically, the polar opposite of SW, along the lines of the North in GoT.
  
• Kul Tiras is pretty well done in-game, but being broadly based on 17th century England, they should be much more imperialist than the other kingdoms, and the government's feudal nature should be underlined - after all, post-Civil War English kings had much less personal power than their colleagues from e.g. Spain, Russia and especially France, whereas in-game the Proudmoores are effectively indistinguishable from, say, the Wrynns.
  
• Gilneas is a quite hard nut to crack. Their 19th England (and especially Londoner) aesthetics do not mesh in the slightest with their backstory, i.e. a hardcore isolationist kingdom ruled by a hawkish leader. Despite said traits, the country is somehow an important trade and industrial power, comparable to its RL inspiration. On top of that, said kingdom being overrun by a bunch of WMD-using zombies throws everything out of whack, so if Gilneas was to be ever restored, it should be something like the USSR on the years immediately following WWII: a despotic, yet popular government, extremely distrustful towards their recent enemies and even some of its allies; a war-torn, impoverished (even blighted at some points) landscape, decorated here and there with nelf settlements.
  
• Lordaeron has always stood out on its own, even if nu-Blizzard has tried their best to turn it into generic fantasy kingdom #35689274, but with gray-skinned inhabitants. Cata had found a veritable diamond in the rough, in this case Sylvanas' appeal to Lordaeronian patriotism. It could be rekindled into a sort of "we'll behave, but don't mess with us again or else..." stance.

Stormwind was never cosmopolitan or wealthy. It was a backwater colony of Lordaeron and its main feature was that it shared Lordaeron's religious fervor. It is unclear how well the many cultures that have ended up seeking refuge in Stormwind have integrated. Normally this diversity should be a boon since many new or unique skills could have ended up in Stormwind allowing for booming trade but the question is, trade with whom? It should end up cosmopolitan and wealthy but it would take a fair while for that to happen.

Stromgarde is not particularly religious, it never was which is probably one of its main differences from Lordaeron. Stromgarde seems to be a city state supporting pioneering farmers and ranchers in the borderlands with the Amani by providing a strong military deterrent, likely in the form of patrolling knights; I'd also expect most of its citizens to serve as militia and everyone to be able to hold a sword.

As for Kul Tiras, I think the influence is much more Dutch than British.

[Le Conceptuel]

The current bunch of hacks writing team struggles hard enough as it is to tell Orcs apart from Humans, but if they were to be suddenly enlightened (or better yet, replaced by actual writers), they could do something along these lines:

• Stormwind: cosmopolitan, populous, wealthy, but with comparatively less military power and with deep political internal issues. Think of 14th century Florence.
  
• Stromgarde: isolationist, backwards, deeply religious, with a strong military despite the sparse population. They fiercely support their king. Basically, the polar opposite of SW, along the lines of the North in GoT.

I'd personally swap over the religious nature of Stromgarde to Stormwind. It lines up more with Stormwind being analogous to Italy and hosting the current seat of the Church.

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Stormwind was never cosmopolitan or wealthy. It was a backwater colony of Lordaeron and its main feature was that it shared Lordaeron's religious fervor. It is unclear how well the many cultures that have ended up seeking refuge in Stormwind have integrated. Normally this diversity should be a boon since many new or unique skills could have ended up in Stormwind allowing for booming trade but the question is, trade with whom? It should end up cosmopolitan and wealthy but it would take a fair while for that to happen.

To be fair, with Kul Tiras now more geopolitically-active, I could see an economic feedback loop being constructed between Stormwind and Kul Tiras. Although there's no ports in Khaz Modan to take advantage of Stormwind's coastal location, I could also see Stormwind trading frequently with Ironforge.

Realistically, though, if we wanted to handwave Stormwind into a state of abundance, the best option would be to give them a valuable export. Their climate, which seems to be a roughly-Mediterranean climate, would be conducive to the production of wine and olives, at least, which would surely bring in money.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

I'd personally swap over the religious nature of Stromgarde to Stormwind. It lines up more with Stormwind being analogous to Italy and hosting the current seat of the Church.

- - - Updated - - -



To be fair, with Kul Tiras now more geopolitically-active, I could see an economic feedback loop being constructed between Stormwind and Kul Tiras. Although there's no ports in Khaz Modan to take advantage of Stormwind's coastal location, I could also see Stormwind trading frequently with Ironforge.

Realistically, though, if we wanted to handwave Stormwind into a state of abundance, the best option would be to give them a valuable export. Their climate, which seems to be a roughly-Mediterranean climate, would be conducive to the production of wine and olives, at least, which would surely bring in money.

Which is another reason why Westfall should have been long fully retaken and reintegrated into the kingdom, with it being the heart of Stormwind agriculture with its great production of cereals, fruits, wines and olives being of critical importance for the kingdom and for the Alliance. Ironforge, Gnomeregan and Shadowforge would rely heavily on Stormwind's food and drinks' exports and it would make the establishements of new harbors on Stormwind and Khaz Modan's coast, and the construction of roads between Stormwind and the Dark Iron Dwarves' territories all the more precious.

Kul Tiras would be similar to the Dutch and the Venitians, with them being smaller than other kingdoms save Dalaran, but having the largest merchant fleet and having many trade outposts and maritime bases to transport both the goods from their kingdoms and the exportations from the rest of the Alliance kingdoms and nations to the other ones. They would also have powerful banks and trade and craftmen corporations, indispensable to the trade in the human kingdoms and for all of the Alliance. This makes them also the greatest competitors for the Goblin cartels, and has also a historical source of envy and ressentment by other kingdoms such as Gilneas and Stromgarde.

Stromgarde would be more like medieval Switzerland, with it being being more like a confederacy of regions all under the control of Stromgarde but each with some degree of autonomy, and its own militias. Though these militias are nearly if just as good and disciplined as soldiers as regular armymen, with them drafting a greater proportion of the populationt than other kingdoms, and trained very long and hard to form very tough, disciplined and mobile infantry that can ravage foes with their impervious shields and spear/pikes formations, supported by a shock cavalry of the regular army and longbowmen and more recent gunmen.

Also due to their kingdom's martial traditions, many recent battles against the Horde, Scourge and Forsaken, Stromic priests and paladins should be generally more aggressive and willing to use offensive spells and techniques than their Stormwindian counterparts.