Poll: Are the new Warlock races okay?

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  1. #341
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    To me you cant summon the Light to say that the Lich King who is the litteral God of the Undeads lose control over his death knights, like you can explain it to me, but it dont work, thats all.

    It is the lore and i know the lore, but it dont mean it makes sense, because its just some kind of bs explaination just like the Force in star wars to explain things you cant explain with logic you just go "magic" or "its the Light"

    Like for example how could Ktz in the same comics you showed be able to raise and take control over Darion when he just releassed the Light power and was still in Light's hope? Shouldnt the Light protect him?!

    Then again;, Lich King should resume control over the undeads be it forsaken or dks instantly when they go to Northrend
    I think wow is pretty consistent that the light countering undeath in all kinds of ways and that when the LK is weakened undead can break free like we see in WC3. As such the light just weakening the lich king if in huge amounts instead of any of the more dramatic effects fits fine and it’s the LK being weakened that lets them break free not the light it self.

    As far KT and Dorian, the light doesn’t stop some one from being raised that’s why the LK wanted to take lights hope because of all of those delicious holy men to twist and raise. Dorian trades his soul into undeath to free his fathers and in theory if it wasn’t for KT scooping him up he shouldn’t have had any one to take control of him and he’d have been free from the start.

    Also ya the Lich king should just be able to retake over any undead that get near him the idea that they can break free when he’s weak really doesn’t cover why he can’t grab them again.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-05-17 at 07:48 PM.
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  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    You do realize the Article quotes the interview right? And that it doesn't say what you think it does? Clearly you didn't listen to the podcast or read the article.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Blizz is coring out the playerbase they want to keep.
    It bears repeating that I believe that "lore" will be redefined as it pertains to the current expansion...within that expansion.
    I'd say "art imitates life" however both seem to resemble a rather strangely tragic ill-written cartoon.
    yup, think they are going for a specific group. and do nto care about lore anymore.

  4. #344
    Mechagnome Ameonna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You do realize the Article quotes the interview right? And that it doesn't say what you think it does? Clearly you didn't listen to the podcast or read the article.
    Just use your logic and head for 5sec, what the interview says? In the podcast Metzen says that he is afraid of failures and that he hates failures and that he burned out.

    Look at the dates here, its at the end of WoD, do you recall how bad the game (wow) was in WoD? Do you recall how the playerbase treated the game in MoP and WoD? Dont you think this did have an impact? Like come on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I think wow is pretty consistent that the light countering undeath in all kinds of ways and that when the LK is weakened undead can break free like we see in WC3. As such the light just weakening the lich king if in huge amounts instead of any of the more dramatic effects fits fine and it’s the LK being weakened that lets them break free not the light it self.

    As far KT and Dorian, the light doesn’t stop some one from being raised that’s why the LK wanted to take lights hope because of all of those delicious holy men to twist and raise. Dorian trades his soul into undeath to free his fathers and in theory if it wasn’t for KT scooping him up he shouldn’t have had any one to take control of him and he’d have been free from the start.

    Also ya the Lich king should just be able to retake over any undead that get near him the idea that they can break free when he’s weak really doesn’t cover why he can’t grab them again.
    I can realy on that more to be fair.

    It is true that ever since war3 it was showed that the Light had an effect on undeads (even if it was more showed that it more of an harful effect than anything).

    But i am not so sure that it was explained that way that it is why the dks are free. What i mean is, yes it explained why Tirion was able to beat the Lich King, and that he was "weakened" but i dont think it is said, also, again, the moment when they break free, the Lich King is ok and not yet weakened.

    If they would break free after Tirion kick LK away then ok, but its not like this that it happens.

    (And yeah you get my point that ok they broke free in Light's hope, but once out of Light's hope they should fall pray to dominaiton again when near LK)

  5. #345
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    How is this a disagreement?
    I disagree that this isn't a disagreement. Clearly he is disagreeing to agree with your agreement.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    I am mainly hoping that the draenai warlock thing wont destroy any hope of a man'ari allied race.
    Indeed, I think the ony way draeni of any flavour should be warlock is if they are Eredar basically only way it makes sense to me, I feel the reason for a lighforged warlock in particular will be pretty hard to swallow.

    Then again Forsaken priests and eventually paladins... sigh.

  7. #347
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It worked fine because they didn't do anything with the lore at the time.

    For example, Forsaken in the Horde makes NO SENSE from a WC3 point of view. The values of Thrall's Horde would not extend to the morally weak Forsaken, who were dubious at best. Forsaken also gained their independence, and lore-wise would not likely serve any new Master, definitely not a Warchief. The lore conflicts with itself at the very start. And it was fine during Vanilla, because nothing really happened to fuck up any lore.
    It does make sense, if you see this alliance as what i was supposed to be, an alliance of interests, not because they love each other or share the same beliefs.

    Side witht he forsaken means you ahve support in easter kingdoms against the alliance, since the alliance have support in kalindor against the horde.

    Horde still had settlements in Easter kingdoms like the frotswolf clan and Arathi, they alone would be destroyed by the alliance, but the forsaken backing then with a strong position in the northern area, they have a strong foothold to back off alliance advances.

    In contrast, the forsaken alone would not hold the alliance and other threads, its better to join the horde and receive their support than to be enemies of then and the alliance all together.

    Plus, it was the taurens who convinced thrall claiming they could pottentially cure then.

    Yes, it was a lore decision based on gameplay, but it does make sense in geopolitics of a planet breed by war.


    And how dies lore for Forsaken progress through Wrath, where you think lore still works? They caused the greatest betrayal that anyone could have seen, at the most pivotal moment in Wrathgate.
    it was a group, and they dealt with it, fi they would shit on every race just because a group or an individual did shit we would be far worse.

    None of this would be due to the oversight of Horde leadership. And a weak leadership is exactly what causes the Horde's second greatest problem - Thrall abdicating the position and allowing his (poorly vetted) predecessors to take the Horde down the worst paths ever seen.
    Garrosh was fine till the middle of mop. Whent hey decided to make him the final enemy.
    If the RTS worked like WoW, you'd have Thralls Horde with every unit and hero from WC1&2 Horde playable at the same time. It would be a lore mess. Thrall's shamanistic Orcs, Tauren and Island Trolls suddenly allied with Warlocks and Ogres and Forest Trolls and Goblins and Death Knights. Oh wait, sound familiar? This is exactly what we end up with in WoW.. It's quite a mess, and it's caused many messes within Horde's progressive lore.
    This is also what we had in warcraft 2? lol

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It does make sense, if you see this alliance as what i was supposed to be, an alliance of interests, not because they love each other or share the same beliefs.
    Any race can be written in any faction then, since everyvrace has the same interests - survive.

    The factions share the same common goals. Both are motivated by a history of blood and a need to defend their people, both are looking to right past wrongs, bring down those who oppose them, and bring their people into an era of peace.

    Side witht he forsaken means you ahve support in easter kingdoms against the alliance, since the alliance have support in kalindor against the horde.
    Any race can be written into any faction.

    You could literally take the Worgen and Forsaken and swap their backstories, and they would fit perfectly in each other's faction. This applies to practically every race.

    Faction alliances purely based on location is just as poor as any excuse that prioritizes gameplay over lore.

    Yes, it was a lore decision based on gameplay, but it does make sense in geopolitics of a planet breed by war.
    Which was purposefully manipulated that way by the designers who wanted NE on Alliance, Forsaken on Horde.

    The lines got drawn again in BFA where Horde lose Lordaeron, NE lose Teldrassil. Imagine if WoW originally started that way; Forsaken could have been an Alliance race and NE could have been a Horde race. It's just as plausible, because neither NE or Forsaken had any actual ties to Alliance and Horde; their need for any alliances were manufactured by the writers.

    This is also what we had in warcraft 2? lol
    Warcraft 2 was still an extension of Gul'dan's Horde. All use of dark magic was attributed to Gul'dan's meddling.

    WC3 already moved past that. Makes no sense for it to return to Thrall's Horde in WoW. It was all due to gameplay, period.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-05-18 at 05:28 AM.

  9. #349
    If night elves and blood elves can wield chaos magic I don't see why a light wielding race can't.
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  10. #350
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    I want Gnome Druids, God damn it!

    Who wouldn't want to play as a Kitten/Cub/Chick/Sapling!?
    Mechagnomes would do as cute little Transformers. Just add some whirring gears sound for their shape-shifting animations, and voilà - a goofy but interesting take on dudus.

  11. #351
    Mechagnome Ameonna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrowseer View Post
    Indeed, I think the ony way draeni of any flavour should be warlock is if they are Eredar basically only way it makes sense to me, I feel the reason for a lighforged warlock in particular will be pretty hard to swallow.

    Then again Forsaken priests and eventually paladins... sigh.
    What i want to say is that, not all draenai warlock are man'ari, there is a clear difference between a draenai and a man'ari, it would be like if you said that a mag'har orc should become a green orc if it use the fel (which could and is argued about on that thread)

    In any cases, i would say that man'ari eredar are much more imbued in fel than a draenai could by simply using fel magic, because man'ari eredar were completly bathed in the fel by Sargeras (its not exactly clear how, if they drunk someones fel blood which is implied for the WoD man'ari)

    There as much if nore more difference between a draenai and a man'ari eredar than a draenai and a lf draenai, just like lf draenai were "lightforged" the man'ari eredar were "felforged" so to speak.

    But my fear is that since players dont realize this or simply dont care, and some even say that the man'ari are to draenai just like the felborn are for nightborn while man'ari are closer to what is a green orc to a mag'har if not even more like a felorc or even more feltouched than even a felorc since i dont felorc are demons but anyway, i am afraid that because players dont manage to distinguish them both they push Blizz to just give a "red skin" customization for draenai (which would just reduce the man'ari to a red skin color which they are not...they are much more different than just a skin tone) this would be a waste imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    All mana'ri are evil, period, they are demons. It does not matter if they were turned against their will, once you are bound into the twisting nether you are an evil demons

    ...you want to say the demons are the heroes now? haha
    Yeah and i was thinking about something, as peoples always argue that the Burning Legion is evil because they destroyed worlds...do you know that guy named Algalon who was ordered by the titans to litteraly resets worlds that they deemed too corrupted? You know? That same Algalon who casualy says to us that he had ended countless lives with just a snap of a finger? But yeah the titans are ok dude, they have a "friendly" reaction to us when we click on their npc model so i guess they are just nice guys!

    And i said it already but i like how you avoided answering but, Illidan is a demon bound to the Twisting Nether, so he is evil then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i don't think the lore is bad because they have other priorities, i think the lore is bad because the writers are awful.
    I think the main problem of the writters at Blizzard and thus since the beginning is that they are not actual writters in the frist place but more like geek/comics readers who think that everything made in DC and Marvel are the best writting ever and they try to write wow the same way.

    The problem is, the writer in wow think more about the "awesome" (it was litteraly said by Metzen many times when he explained some of his lore decivison) that for him it was more cool to do something "awesome" or "amazing" to give the "wouah" feeling to the viewvers than to do something that actually made sense.

  12. #352
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    Because i NEVER quoted you about the combos of race/classe i quoted you about the fact you say it made sense for night elves to go to the alliance..which you still dont get.
    Because it does.


    Well, i am argueing that i am afraid that IF Blizzard gives man'ari cusromization to draenai warlocks, then it will prevent a proper man'ari allied race to exist, thats all i was argueing about here.
    as it should, because we don't need a demon evil race plaayble, and we don't need more recolors pretending to be new races, 90% of the allied races should be skin for the races

    What you have an issue with is, to make the difference between, what you think is logicial and what the lore says, the Lore says that there was peace, it litteraly said so back in vanilla, in the quest here : https://www.wowhead.com/classic/ques...gdoms#comments
    Where exactly says it was in peace? quote that

    It literally says the opposide, that they ar ein conflict, and this might lead to better relationships with the easter kingdoms, which failed, it did worse.
    When you speak with Thrall is says what i said, he says there is peace but some skirmishes there and there,
    So you are one of those "there is no war in ba sing se" ?


    o matter what your definition of peace is, it dont matter because it is a statement that is used in that quest, in the chronnicles books and in other parts of lore. Therefore, it is THE LORE and no matter your definition of peace is, its not said anywhere there is a cesse-fire, you will need to give me a statement that it says "cesse-fire" or "no peace" from vanilla.
    Chronicles says there was no peace, there was multiple conflicts in azeroth
    But the thing is, you argue that (and i will answer to the other statement you made below in other post here) that the blood did not do these effects
    Because it didn't by itself, its not the blood per se, its the fel magic that does that, the blood serves to bind their will to the pit lord and acelerate the corruption because you drink raw fel magic

    LKike i said, many orcs got the same red eyes without drinking the blood.

    What is this having anything to do with Vanilla context and Night elves Joining the Alliance?
    You are mixing up way too much lore, we are talking about the peace NOW after BFA.

    In both cases it is stupid, but you too you contradict yourself then, since you defend they change mindset by going in alliance, but you defend they dont change by not making peace....so you too you are doing just like me.
    No, one case is stupid, the other is necessary for survival and revenge.

    Its acceptable that the night elves side with the alliance to get revenge on the horde by trespassing their lands, it does not make sense for then to be at peace with the horde after teldrasil genocide

    The Horde did not genocide the night elves in war3 why do you talk about BFA when we talking about post war3 events? You make no sense at all.
    Because we are talking about the horde and alliance post bfa and how this shit make no sense, you are the one mixing timelines.

    Anad yeah right, the night elves suffered so much they could build a freeking tree with a dam capital in less than 3y, that clearly what ppl who suffered a lot of loss do...
    Building a tree ahve nothing to do with your numbers diminishing by DYING out of a war with the legion.


    Because Azshara condition changed prior to Cata when the goblins arrived? No it did not,
    Azshara condition changed in cata
    And you also have dustwallow too btw wich is under ogre control, actually there is so many other way than to piss off night elves that it makes no dam sense for Thrall to keep cutting lumbbers there, only reason is "its in war3!"
    You think you can take trees from a swamp that far way is better than take good trees from a safe and close route?

    If you keep ignoring logic - that comes form real world - you get this kind of nonsense statements, and like i said its not just lumber its all kinds of resources.


    Well, no its not naive, i am from this part of the world and i have my surronding thinking like i said, but who you are to talk anyway about the ongoing situation, you are surely safe and sound!
    Its being naive and thinking unrealistic, you believe everyone in a nation would think the same as you. Just because you think that everyone, obviously think the same, again, ignoring stuff that happens in reality.
    Who are the undead you saw break free? The forsaken i just mentioned before that asked a great deals of event?
    You played the game since 2004, you should know.



    Because you are wrong? The Lich King was owning everyone when he came, he was able to beat Tirion, and other its just because Darion gave the ashrbinger AFTER he broke free that the Lich King was defeated. Just before that the Lich King is totally in control of the fight, just because Tirion made some mind trick or something to Darion by showing him vision of his father....
    ...And because he wounded the lich king the others broke free

    The Alliance of Lordaeron was disbanded at the end of war2 you should know this, therefore, Stormwind humans were NOT in Lordaeron in war3 they were nowhere to be found, they were rebuilding their city, they did not support or go agaisnt the actions of Garithos who was btw just some Lordaeron noble that was litteraly in the other side of the continenat so how can you claim the humans of Stormwind had any hands in that matter?
    No...? the alliance of lordaeron literally existed in wc3, you play as then in both reing of chaos and frozen throne, and yes they did support Garithos because stormwind was still part of the alliance and Garithos was the defacto high king.
    Wait what? Since when the Alliance of Stormwind sent spies and sabotaged mana? Ha yes...TBC when the choice of making them Horde was already taken...
    So? it completely align with the alliance actions in the frozen throne.

    No they hates all trolls, end of the story, you dont know elf lore...you really think they are going to make the difference between jungle and forst trolls? HO and btw, there is these trolls in the Horde : https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Revantusk_tribe
    Its easier to make the difference, one is green the other is blue, one is killing then in their houses, the others are far away, in another continent, in a small island.


    Litteraly one of the tribes who was part of the Amani empire and followed Zul'jin, you know? The mortal enemy of the high/blood elves that the orcs did free and helped.
    The revantusk only joined the horde inc ataclysm YEARS after the blood elves already set on the horde and would not leave regardless.



    And did you see how that same ranger general treated them? And again, you are being inconsistent here, you argue since earlier about the ppl not being caring about the leader of a faction but about its people, who are undead and maybe even in these undeads you have ones who did attack Quel'Thalas, but you use the arguement of "their leader is an ancient elf" to justify them joing horde but earlier you refuse the arguement of "the night elves are not alble of seeing that only the warchief sylvanas was responsible in the burning of teldrasil" you make just no sense...
    Youa re comparing aples to potatoes, the blood elves saw the undead as shield, they could care less about then as long they survived, this was, always, how the interactions of blood elves and uundeads were with the horde, they were only an alliance of desperation, they didn't because they liked it, because they had to to survive.

    The entire horde followed sylvanas, for A LONG TIME, and only ditch her out when she REEEEEEEEEEEEEeee out of orgrimmar, they were followers of her until the end. Why would the alliance forget and forgive that?


    Ho yeah, they are demons so they are evil, i think its just like the orcs, they are orcs so they are evil, or like the undeads, all undeads are evil right?
    orcs are not demons.
    Also you want a demon who are not evil? Illidan? Demon hunters? Illidari demons? Ho boy they are so evil!! Ho wait, they helped defeat other demons!!!!!
    demon hunters are not demons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Any race can be written in any faction then, since everyvrace has the same interests - survive.
    ...yes, thats what i said in my first post

    the difference is how much you ahve to write, how much bullshit you ahve to sprout and how much retcon you need to make so things work.

    for some things is easier, for others is harder, some things will feel natural and better, other will feel forced and bullshit.
    The factions share the same common goals.
    Yes, but they are enemies, neutral races usually joined a faction tos survive against the enemy faction or against other enemy.

    You could literally take the Worgen and Forsaken and swap their backstories, and they would fit perfectly in each other's faction. This applies to practically every race.
    Not rly, it would require way more work and would need a way more contrived story to justify that and it would not be good.

    Why the undeads would join the alliance if the ones attacking then was the alliance itself? you want to swapp so that it was the horde attacking then, and they need humans help? that doe snot make sense because there is no reason to it, you would need to change a ton of shit that would not end up good.
    Faction alliances purely based on location is just as poor as any excuse that prioritizes gameplay over lore.
    The locations are aprt of the lore, like i said the geopolitics of the world was a big faction before worldbuilding going to the dumpster.

    WC3 already moved past that. Makes no sense for it to return to Thrall's Horde in WoW. It was all due to gameplay, period.
    We already had warlocks back in vanilla, with reasonable explanations, it does make sense.

    Yes, it can go for both ways, they decided one, newsflash.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    yup, think they are going for a specific group. and do nto care about lore anymore.
    It's kinda not-funny.
    There seems to be a parallel between DF and MoP. Both we're hidden Isles; Both had a new race and new class...hmf..

  14. #354
    Mechagnome Ameonna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    as it should, because we don't need a demon evil race plaayble, and we don't need more recolors pretending to be new races, 90% of the allied races should be skin for the races
    You dont really decide what we need or dont need, for instance, i love how you were kinda on my side on that topic but now totally turned the table...i wont continue to argue on that topic i argued enough with other ppl about the allied races being better for immersion than simple customizations and i am tired of having the same arguements over this;, so if you want my answers read my previous post to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Where exactly says it was in peace? quote that

    It literally says the opposide, that they ar ein conflict, and this might lead to better relationships with the easter kingdoms, which failed, it did worse.

    So you are one of those "there is no war in ba sing se" ?
    Well, Blizz is during classic, like ir or not. Sadly i cant give you what Thrall said because it would need me to re-do this on classic and its kinda a pain ><

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Chronicles says there was no peace, there was multiple conflicts in azeroth
    Give me the moment when Chronnicles says there is no peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Because it didn't by itself, its not the blood per se, its the fel magic that does that, the blood serves to bind their will to the pit lord and acelerate the corruption because you drink raw fel magic

    LKike i said, many orcs got the same red eyes without drinking the blood.
    Yes bit they also got it with the blood which means the blood gives also these effects, and i mean, the blood pact stopped to make sense since wod because, when they said that Mannoroth in war3 was dead and orcs were free of his pact, it made sense and all, because Mannoroth was DEAD permanently, but in WoD they made the "all demons go to twisting nether and cant be dead out isde of it" retcon and this now make you ask, how can the orcs be free of the pact if Mannoroth is not dead then? Since he litteraly come back in WoD and dont even die here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You are mixing up way too much lore, we are talking about the peace NOW after BFA.

    Because we are talking about the horde and alliance post bfa and how this shit make no sense, you are the one mixing timelines.
    No i am not, i am never talking about post bfa i always talk about classic context since the beginning of this discussions. Because, why would i argue that the night elves have no places in the Alliance in bfa? Thats makes no sense, i am telling you that right from classic they made no sense in the Alliance and should have been their own faction like they always were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Building a tree ahve nothing to do with your numbers diminishing by DYING out of a war with the legion.
    Building a tree maybe not. But building a dam city yes...you know? Darnassus? And the other cities on that same tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Azshara condition changed in cata

    You think you can take trees from a swamp that far way is better than take good trees from a safe and close route?

    If you keep ignoring logic - that comes form real world - you get this kind of nonsense statements, and like i said its not just lumber its all kinds of resources.
    Ho and so where does the humans of Theramore get their ressources then? Heee? Heee? And you really REALLY think that blizzard do such deep thinking as to say "Ho yeah, they cant take trees out of swamp" like for real they dont. In war3 no matter the zone you are in when cut tree and it work.

    You are just being picky for the sake of it. And also you forget there is Stontalon Mountains and Mulgore and also Azshara the situation did not change...because Orgrimmar was rebuilt by taking lumber here BEFORE the goblins joined the Horde. The whole Azshara changed because the Goblin joined the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its being naive and thinking unrealistic, you believe everyone in a nation would think the same as you. Just because you think that everyone, obviously think the same, again, ignoring stuff that happens in reality.
    But i literally tell you that there is no position of hatred toward a whole country in that situation, the medias are not doing this. People who are thinking that the whole country is bad are...are??? Individuals and most of these peoples are not very smart!!! Get over it!

    But in any case, if i am naive, you are being narrowed, i dont know who is worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You played the game since 2004, you should know.
    No you are just being out of arguements...like litteraly. In an arguement you are supposed to give proof of your claims, its not to me to find it for you. So learn to argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ...And because he wounded the lich king the others broke free
    Did you do the starting zone recently? Because...he wound the Lich King AFTER they broke free...when they break free the Lich King is fully in power and he is owning eveyrone. The Lich King get wounded BECAUSE Darion give him the Ashbringer to Tirion BECAUSE he broke free...so please stop mixing things up.

    Therefore this dont change the fact that when the dks and forsaken enter the Northrend or are close the Lich King they should be instantly dominated by him, you can even see during the new version of Scholomande dark master Gandling taking control over Lilian Voss, and Gandling is kind of a joke compared to the litteral God of Undeath aka the Lich King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No...? the alliance of lordaeron literally existed in wc3, you play as then in both reing of chaos and frozen throne, and yes they did support Garithos because stormwind was still part of the alliance and Garithos was the defacto high king.


    So? it completely align with the alliance actions in the frozen throne.
    But what actions? Stormwind did nothing in war3 >< you are confusing stuff up. You are confsing the Alliance of Lordaeron, and the Kingdom of Lordaeron, the Alliance of Lordaeron was defeated during war3 and Stormwind was not here in war3 anyway, and also what are you talking about that Garithos was the high king >< Garithos was the leader of the "alliance remanents" which by definition means, that there no alliance of lordaeron anymore but just remanents of it. (its litteraly his faction in war3)

    In war3 you know whats great? Is that when you have many factions being part of a bigger one it is often represented in their factions names, the thing is, while in war3 you have Gilenas, Kul'tiras but no Stormwind anywhere to be found in war3 in any factions, they are just NOT HERE so i have no idea how you can claim they have a part in anything...its like you make lore up now, its clearly explained than during the 3rd war stormwind is rebuilding (it was said in classic) so NO you dont play Stormwind in war3 you play Lordaeron and it get destroyed during RoC and during TFT you play not alliance you play Blood elves...unless you talk about the Garithos part, which are called 'alliance remnants" (which show you that the alliance is destroyed and here its about the Alliance of LORDAERON which is different from the one made in classic wow)

    But yeah the part about Garithos being the High King was funny ><

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Its easier to make the difference, one is green the other is blue, one is killing then in their houses, the others are far away, in another continent, in a small island.
    Yeah right as if the Blood elves knew what was the Darkspear tribes lmmaaooo, you are being so falacious on purpose here, the blood elves know a lot more about humans than they know about the trolls >< for them trolls are just evil no matter what color they are...you are again playing cherry picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    The revantusk only joined the horde inc ataclysm YEARS after the blood elves already set on the horde and would not leave regardless.
    No they supported it and were allied with it since vanilla, you should play classic Hinterland questline and you would know that in classic they make full support of the Horde and they are official allies of the Horde, even if they did not join it completly (they did not join it in cata either) they are still allies of the Horde.



    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    orcs are not demons.
    I never said they are demons...i said that you say all demons are bad because demons, i could just says same with orcs, bad because orcs...which is wrong. I feel like you are being silly on purpose here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    demon hunters are not demons.
    The thing is...they are, its litteraly Legion lore, when you die in the dh starting zone Illidan tells you that just like him your soul is bound to the Twinsting Nether and just like him you are able to return from it to return back to life.

    Illidan is a demon, like look at him, he have demon wings, hooves and horns...and i mean its stated in the lore that he is a demon and no longer a Night elves, it was stated in the visual guide, in the offical website AND in chronnicle v3 (now i litteraly got you there, i have litteraly sources to back it up!) :



    Here he litteraly says he have a demon soul (and you too as a dh which mean yes you play a being with a demon soul...which mean you are a demon.) :



    So yeah ; Illidan = demon = not evil = not all demons are evil = you are wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's kinda not-funny.
    There seems to be a parallel between DF and MoP. Both we're hidden Isles; Both had a new race and new class...hmf..
    The thing is, it was loooot less good handled than in MoP, while in MoP you had the feeling of a continent being cut of from the world for 10ky with all the creatures being new and never found anywhere else than in Pandaria (with some exception like tigers) in df you have tuskars, centaur and other things you saw in other places which dont really makes sense, like the centaur did not exist prior to war of the ancients but you have ones in dragonisl which was closed since war of the ancient.
    Last edited by Ameonna; 2023-05-18 at 02:18 PM.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ...yes, thats what i said in my first post

    the difference is how much you ahve to write, how much bullshit you ahve to sprout and how much retcon you need to make so things work.

    for some things is easier, for others is harder, some things will feel natural and better, other will feel forced and bullshit.
    Yes, and I can point out much of it is bullshit throughout vanilla to MoP, not just everything after MoP.

    There is no excuse for bad lore, wouldn't you agree?

    If we say gameplay was the excuse, then you could say that about all the bad lore we have today is excused by the same reason. Either way, the lore and story isn't better for it, it all suffers considerably.

    Yes, but they are enemies, neutral races usually joined a faction tos survive against the enemy faction or against other enemy.
    Which is nothing but an excuse to have them playable. You can extend this to classes too.

    Lorewise, DKs wouldn't make sense being playable in Alliance or Horde. The factions simply wouldn't accept it if this were the RTS. Their values are too different.

    Same can be said about Warlocks. And the funny thing about them is they were a late addition to Vanilla! We could have had Runemaster class instead; a neutral theme actually fits in with the values of Alliance and Horde. This was basically the prototype for Monk, while its Rune resource system ended up being repurposed for DK. And the theme for the class existed in concepts from the RPG books.

    Like where do Warlocks even fit in the lore? Why are they even helping Alliance or Horde when they could literally be independent or masters of their own cults, like most NPC Warlocks we already know about. The story doesn't make sense since they don't even get protection from Alliance and Horde. Storywise, they should be hunted immediately if they showed themselves in public, not 'tolerated' because their combat capabilities are useful. Storywise, they aren't even interested in helping the Alliance or Horde, they're just there. Not even being protected, just hiding, and the lore does nothing to persecute them when they're publicly exposed. You may as well write that the Twilights Hammer are also Alliance and Horde since they secretly worked in cities the same way. The only difference is Warlock players have shown no interest in opposing the factions they hide in, while later story is adapted to Warlocks completely championing their faction's cause AND being rewarded by their faction for their work.

    Not rly, it would require way more work and would need a way more contrived story to justify that and it would not be good.

    Why the undeads would join the alliance if the ones attacking then was the alliance itself? you want to swapp so that it was the horde attacking then, and they need humans help? that doe snot make sense because there is no reason to it, you would need to change a ton of shit that would not end up good.
    You just said the story would be contrived, then you give me the SAME contrived storyline that Blizzard used to excuse the Forsaken as a Horde race.

    You realize that Stormwind Alliance had ZERO connection to Forsaken if we go by WC3 lore, yes? That means we are working with a blank slate.

    There is no reason why the Stormwind Alliance would be immediately aggressive to former Lordaeronians who have been affected by undeath curse and somehow broke free from the Scourge. None. They would recognize them as being different from mindless undead, they would recognize them as former Human allies, just as they do on modern WoW lore with Calia and Alonsus Faol being neutral to Alliance in the lore.

    Even Sylvanas has reason to join Alliance. She was a FORMER ALLIANCE member! Her living family sre in the ALLIANCE. And instead of rebuilding lost connections, we have a story of her wanting to KILL her sisters. Lore is a mess!

    -Edit- Looks like from reading your responses to other posts, you thought Garithos was High King of Alliance or something. Wow. Sorry but he has ZERO connection to Stormwind Alliance, and the forces he lead were a branch of Lordaeron's remaining forces, much like how the Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn remained as small, independent factions in the Plaguelands.

    The locations are aprt of the lore, like i said the geopolitics of the world was a big faction before worldbuilding going to the dumpster.
    So? Gilneas is also geopolitically in the north. They could have been the Horde supplement. Frostwolf Clan are situated in Alterac. Even the Revantusk Amani are Horde allies in the north. There are PLENTY of ways to incorporate Horde into EK geopolitocally without Forsaken. Hell, you could even GIVE them stronghold to take up, like Stromgarde which already fell to ruin from Ogres. Wouldn:t be much to simply have Frostwolf or some other Orc clan positioned there. That could have been a Horde base, easily.

    All you're giving me here is an excuse to defend a contrived story. Forsaken are not the ideal candidate to be Horde, and geopolitics is nothing but an excuse. Forsaken would work just as well as an NPC or independent Player faction separate from Red and Blue, much like any other faction like Scarlet Crusade, Scourge, Amani Trolls etc.

    Yes, it can go for both ways, they decided one, newsflash.
    They can decide anything they want, it doesn't mean it actually makes sense.

    That you think Warlocks should be tolerated by the Alliance and Horde at all means you take WC3 lore for granted and would rather accept flimsy lore excuses instead. It really doesn't make sense if you follow WC3 lore and how the entire Orc campaign of Reign of Chaos was a cautionary tale for use of Fel. Grom had the orcs drink Mannoroth's blood to gain power to defeat Cenarius and the Night Elves. Thrall considered it absolutely unacceptable. Grom DIED for that sin! Thrall wouldn't suddenly think 'yeah this is an acceptable power to use' when he literally just freed his people from addiction to it!

    You do understand the meaning behind the second drinking of Mannoroth's blood, right? What makes sense for the story is Thrall adopting a no-Fel policy and sticking to it, no excuses. The entire lore for playable Warlocks is nothing but bullshit, which you are saying you are completely okay with.

    So yes, there are varying degrees of bullshit. Warlocks in Thrall's Horde is very extreme bullshit. You are merely telling me you are fine with extreme bullshit as long as it makes sense to you, as long Blizzard can explain it to you in a way that you stop thinking about the actual lore contradictions. I don't have a problem with that, but there isn't really anything you can say that makes this anything less than bullshit lore. It goes against everything the WC3 Horde values.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-05-18 at 05:50 PM.

  16. #356
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    No...? the alliance of lordaeron literally existed in wc3, you play as then in both reing of chaos and frozen throne, and yes they did support Garithos because stormwind was still part of the alliance and Garithos was the defacto high king.
    There was an old Dev QA that said the gnomes and dwarfs sent troops up to lorderon to try and help and they came under Garithos command because he was the highest Ranked leader alive but that they didn’t actually support what he was doing as they had no clue what was going on up there.

    Stormwind isn’t mentioned in that QA or any where else when it comes to helping lorderon during WC3 and Garithos was just a low ranked military commander of lorderon who had no political power or implications over other parts of the alliance.

    Stormwind is completely clean of any of his actions he wasn’t high king supreme commander of the alliance or any thing like that, the gnomes and dwarfs have slight capability though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    Give me the moment when Chronnicles says there is no peace.
    Chronnicels doesn’t actually say they are at war any where but it also implies that they aren’t at full peace even though it doesn’t say it outright.



    It’s very much a Cold War from all accounts where they aren’t quite at peace but not quite at full war.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #357
    Mechagnome Ameonna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    There was an old Dev QA that said the gnomes and dwarfs sent troops up to lorderon to try and help and they came under Garithos command because he was the highest Ranked leader alive but that they didn’t actually support what he was doing as they had no clue what was going on up there.

    Stormwind isn’t mentioned in that QA or any where else when it comes to helping lorderon during WC3 and Garithos was just a low ranked military commander of lorderon who had no political power or implications over other parts of the alliance.

    Stormwind is completely clean of any of his actions he wasn’t high king supreme commander of the alliance or any thing like that, the gnomes and dwarfs have slight capability though.
    From what i recall,it was even stated by devs in that Q&A that Garithos was a Baron, which is one of the lowest ranks in the nobility. Which shows you how irrelevant he is in the matter.

    The whole point of Garithos in the campaign is more to be a kind of joke, like he do stupid things, act like some kind of racist and makes huge tactical mistakes, and even his death is a joke he just get eaten by ghouls...as if that character was at some points made to be "a big deal" it was never the point of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Chronnicels doesn’t actually say they are at war any where but it also implies that they aren’t at full peace even though it doesn’t say it outright.



    It’s very much a Cold War from all accounts where they aren’t quite at peace but not quite at full war.
    I see, thus ok, but well, even in that case, Thrall was kinda pushing for peace and did what he could do make peace with the Alliance, i find kinda odd that he would try to get better relationship with the Alliance by recovering the daughter of Magni but in the same time will not care less about taking lumbers from the night elves whith whom he fought alongisde in Hyjal.

  18. #358
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameonna View Post
    I see, thus ok, but well, even in that case, Thrall was kinda pushing for peace and did what he could do make peace with the Alliance, i find kinda odd that he would try to get better relationship with the Alliance by recovering the daughter of Magni but in the same time will not care less about taking lumbers from the night elves whith whom he fought alongisde in Hyjal.
    I do believe it’s said in the shattering or another novel that thrall wouldn’t stop the warsong because it would be political suicide as they needed the stuff from ashenvale and the orcs were likely to turn on him if he just told them to go without.

    Pretty much he wants peace but didn’t want to put his own power at risk.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    If you want to be pedantic, then it simply just means 'uncorrupted'. It was a term the orcs specifically made, to point out those who had and those who hadn't been infested by fel. You simply cannot be a warlock, without feing infected with fel.
    Isn't the corrupting force that the mag'har orcs were fighting against the light? The fel orcs had been killed off a generation ago (within the AU timeline). If these orcs are calling themselves mag'har, then it stands to reason that they're the ones who are uncorrupted from the light zealots that are trying to overtake their world; hence, being a warlock would not at all go against the idea of "mag'har" within their own societal PoV.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    If you want to be pedantic, then it simply just means 'uncorrupted'. It was a term the orcs specifically made, to point out those who had and those who hadn't been infested by fel. You simply cannot be a warlock, without feing infected with fel.
    So they still start as mag'har, so youd still pick the maghar race to start so it dont matter.

    But also existing warlocks talk about being infected with fel, we have clear examples of that in game, feltotem, demonblood orcs, accursed belves, and we have clear examples of tons of races that are warlocks that aren't physically infected with fel.

    Just because it doesnt fit in your understanding does not mean it does not fit in the reality of this universe.

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