I think making a support class is a recipe for disater.

[bloodmoth13]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

Let them test it and try it for DF.
I agree with you it's not a good fit for wow and it's not something that can be ignored by players who aren't interested. It will be game changing, I don't want it in every group it will make higher level content frustrating.
I don't see how it could be balanced between mandatory vs unnecessary

[TbouncerT]

Not trying to derail but that's still something I can't get my head around - healers and tanks doing more than competitive damage. It just doesn't click with me personally.

yeah, it seems like WoW is moving in the direction of DPS DPS DPS, what classes can do it the best and bring those. Pretty silly that what the tank's or healer's DPS is will make or break them being invited (outside of friends/fam type stuff) or lower playtime. They need to shift back to the days where tanks worried about threat and mitigation, the healers focused on keeping people alive and the DPS keeps doing what they have always done, pew pew. But this is what happens when you try to shift the game to where anyone can play any class solo and do everything. hence why DPS has a lot more self or off-heals now (or just plain self-sustain). Healing power dropped and are expected to DPS a lot more than before. This is what also happens when you move the power shift from the Tanks & Healers to DPS players. There is a reason why the term mindless dps came to be.

[Vakna]

Aug Evoker will either be completely busted OP, or totally useless. There will never be an inbetween with a support spec. Personally I hope it will turn out to be useless, because otherwise it's gonna be absolute hell with people trying to get one in every group.

[FelPlague]

So annoying they are adding another 'role' to the game. It should have been another healer and fit the spot where Disc is. It just seems like they're working on phasing out healers and making it Tanks and Support. [/COLOR]



As the person you're responding to proves, that is all that matters to those types of people. Most of them are like if you're not 1st you're last (silly but mostly true). If you cant top the meters then what's the point, right? Also, meters do NOT tell the whole story either.

Its not a new role, its dps, just the dps is like disc that it does dps and buffs anothers dps, instead of doing dps and healing.

[Inoculate]

My fear is that if they expand the role too wide, would it impact group composition too much.

If people enjoy the role and too many support are in a group, or too little, what are the ramifications that will limit success? Will they tune future content around needing that extra dps? What will be the sweet spot?

It shakes up the meta a bit and I'm 100% swapping off preservation the second it's live but still...some fears linger while we wait to see how it'll change things up.

Hopefully it's a good change.

[arkanon]

yeah, it seems like WoW is moving in the direction of DPS DPS DPS, what classes can do it the best and bring those. Pretty silly that what the tank's or healer's DPS is will make or break them being invited (outside of friends/fam type stuff) or lower playtime. They need to shift back to the days where tanks worried about threat and mitigation, the healers focused on keeping people alive and the DPS keeps doing what they have always done, pew pew. But this is what happens when you try to shift the game to where anyone can play any class solo and do everything. hence why DPS has a lot more self or off-heals now (or just plain self-sustain). Healing power dropped and are expected to DPS a lot more than before. This is what also happens when you move the power shift from the Tanks & Healers to DPS players. There is a reason why the term mindless dps came to be.

I agree 100%, as a tank main from day 1 i took pride in my threat, mitigation/damage reduction, and CD usage. I felt awesome when a healer would say "holy shit you are easy to heal" but i NEVER took pride in doing high dmg. I didnt AVOID doing max damage, but regardless of what the forum warriors try to say 20 years later, it was NOT expected of us.

As a healer, i took pride in making the tanks job as easy as possible, while also covering for the mistakes of DPS without pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum. Those were the good runs, where at the end everyone just said "man, that was a smooth run, thanks guys!". It was a much simpler time, and obviously the GAME was much simpler as well, which no doubt was a factor.

I miss those days, but M+ was the final nail in that coffin, so I am not saying those who enjoy the modern SPEED IS KING style of play are wrong, they enjoy it and thats fine. Im also not expecting them to change after all this time, so it just is what it is.

[Inoculate]

I agree 100%, as a tank main from day 1 i took pride in my threat, mitigation/damage reduction, and CD usage. I felt awesome when a healer would say "holy shit you are easy to heal" but i NEVER took pride in doing high dmg. I didnt AVOID doing max damage, but regardless of what the forum warriors try to say 20 years later, it was NOT expected of us.

As a healer, i took pride in making the tanks job as easy as possible, while also covering for the mistakes of DPS without pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum. Those were the good runs, where at the end everyone just said "man, that was a smooth run, thanks guys!". It was a much simpler time, and obviously the GAME was much simpler as well, which no doubt was a factor.

I miss those days, but M+ was the final nail in that coffin, so I am not saying those who enjoy the modern SPEED IS KING style of play are wrong, they enjoy it and thats fine. Im also not expecting them to change after all this time, so it just is what it is.

I agree but that's also why you find other players like you so you can find those into the same playstyles. Much easier said than done, sadly.

[arkanon]

I agree but that's also why you find other players like you so you can find those into the same playstyles. Much easier said than done, sadly.

Agreed, i was very fortunate. I started playing with a core group in TBC, and continued to play with the SAME players until SL, when most quit. The group fluctuated from 10, up to around 25, and back. As some of us moved into mythic raiding, the rest stayed as our friends and family heroic group, so I always had a 'stress relief' group who were happy to play how we enjoyed it. However, as the game pushed further and further into the GOGOGO style of gameplay, in particular M+, we kind of just lost interest. Which is TOTALLY fine, we still play games together to this day, just now wow.

[Nymrohd]

My fear is that if they expand the role too wide, would it impact group composition too much.

If people enjoy the role and too many support are in a group, or too little, what are the ramifications that will limit success? Will they tune future content around needing that extra dps? What will be the sweet spot?

It shakes up the meta a bit and I'm 100% swapping off preservation the second it's live but still...some fears linger while we wait to see how it'll change things up.

Hopefully it's a good change.

I do wonder, how does having two augmenters work right now? I assume you get two separate cases of Ebon Might?

[Loveliest]

Let's wait and see how it actually pans out.

[trimble]

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure where they were aiming in terms of damage. I feel like 80% of a regular DPS would be fine -- some tanks are already there.

No... maybe in mythic plus during large pulls but if a tank is near 80% of your dmg done you need to get better dps.

Edit: I mean compared to some ST specs dps should still be crushing it.

- - - Updated - - -

I do wonder, how does having two augmenters work right now? I assume you get two separate cases of Ebon Might?

Right now its one per group some of their buffs overlap but only a few. It looks like you will want 4 a raid so far.

[Fitsu]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

Yep, what I think they should do is rework healer into a support role. Healer feels outdated and are already expected to DPS during downtime which many healers don't like.

I would say the support role provides the same if not a better class fantasy than a healer does, bolstering your group. No more need to DPS as bolstering the group is your DPS, they could even have some small healing/party wide defensive mechanics. Then just give everyone the abilities to keep themself alive, everyone is responsible for themselves.

This also means the support can be OP, because it's a staple of the group. As long as the support is buffing atleast 3 people then it provides more DPS than a 4th DPS would. 1 tank/1 support/3 dps would IMO be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Maybe this support role is them dipping their toes into this idea?

This fits well into a raid group as well, 2/4/14? That's 4 Supports, one in each group. I doubt we'll ever see a full archetype be reworked but I really think this would drastically improve the game.

[trimble]

Yep, what I think they should do is rework healer into a support role. Healer feels outdated and are already expected to DPS during downtime which many healers don't like.

I would say the support role provides the same if not a better class fantasy than a healer does, bolstering your group. No more need to DPS as bolstering the group is your DPS, they could even have some small healing/party wide defensive mechanics. Then just give everyone the abilities to keep themself alive, everyone is responsible for themselves.

This also means the support can be OP, because it's a staple of the group. As long as the support is buffing atleast 3 people then it provides more DPS than a 4th DPS would. 1 tank/1 support/3 dps would IMO be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Maybe this support role is them dipping their toes into this idea?

This fits well into a raid group as well, 2/4/14? That's 4 Supports, one in each group. I doubt we'll ever see a full archetype be reworked but I really think this would drastically improve the game.

I really don't Making your performance rely on others has always been pretty shitty in wow. Corruptions highlighted it the most. I don't really get the fetish for it...

[Shadowferal]

Once upon a time, oh-so-long ago, having certain "resistances" bolstered was considered necessary in certain dungeons.

[Relapses]

No... maybe in mythic plus during large pulls but if a tank is near 80% of your dmg done you need to get better dps.

Edit: I mean compared to some ST specs dps should still be crushing it.

If the other four people in your group are each performing 20% better then that would easily *ahem* augment the hybrid tax. My issue is less with the damage side of things and more if they start giving them niche support abilities from other classes' toolkits. (Think Blessing of Spellwarding, Leap of Faith, etc.)

[trimble]

If the other four people in your group are each performing 20% better then that would easily *ahem* augment the hybrid tax. My issue is less with the damage side of things and more if they start giving them niche support abilities from other classes' toolkits. (Think Blessing of Spellwarding, Leap of Faith, etc.)

My issue is with the problem that comes with making an enitrely new role that is gonna be utterly awful to balance around.

[Relapses]

My issue is with the problem that comes with making an enitrely new role that is gonna be utterly awful to balance around.

If we end up in a world where the optimal play is to have 4 Augment Evokers in every 20M Mythic raid then yeah. I'd agree that Blizzard has failed to balance. It's still too early to tell if that's how it'll pan out yet. I understand your concern but let's wait til we get more solid information before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Lolites]

we can still have Erath shaman tank

yeah i would love that...
before DF revamp of talents i had idea how i would change classes and it was basically all classes would have 2 "basic" specs only and each spec would have 2 "subspec" - branches in trees
druid is easiest example - it would be "nature" split in balance/rest and "feral" split in cat/bear
for shammy i had tanking as branch of enhancement

[trimble]

If we end up in a world where the optimal play is to have 4 Augment Evokers in every 20M Mythic raid then yeah. I'd agree that Blizzard has failed to balance. It's still too early to tell if that's how it'll pan out yet. I understand your concern but let's wait til we get more solid information before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You wil either have 4 or 3... depends if its work buffing tanks and healers or not. If its not that its 0

[kenn9530]

As the person you're responding to proves, that is all that matters to those types of people. Most of them are like if you're not 1st you're last (silly but mostly true). If you cant top the meters then what's the point, right? Also, meters do NOT tell the whole story either.

It doesnt really prove anything, most players dont really care at all about being the top because if they did there would be constant complaining because there is only 1 spot for the no1, meters are not everything there is jobs in raids that will make it very difficult to perform properly on dps like raid leading or being a class that can handle certain mechanics, getting on top of the meters is nice but hardly an issue, the only ones that really care about this are the toxic players who cant understand there is more to the game than being no1 on the meters.