Instances where neutrality doesn’t make sense

[Ersula]

Almost every civilization on Azeroth should be afraid of the Horde menace and wish to see them subdued before the Horde embarks on another mass murder spree and wipes out their civilization or destroys the world again. Even nations that aren't fond of the Alliance should not be casting their lot in with the faction that is the enemy of civilization and loses all of its wars, as King Rastakhan found out the hard way.

Trolls, the oldest & largest civilizations on Azeroth, to whom the Alliance was formed to steal their lands: "I think the fuck not."

[Super Dickmann]

A moot question because most big tent neutral organisations shouldn't even exist. They're either contrived plot institutions that exist to outsource elements of a race to others and in the process water it down from being taken to its natural conclusion (the Cenarion Circle, the Earthen Ring), or also that, but on top of that being bizarre nonsensical demographic hodgepodges that kill plots in their crib (The Argent Crusade, where orcs, night elves and draenei come together to rebuild Lordaeron while all LARPing as human Knights). This is without even getting into the implied power level of some of these nonsense groups, like how the Kirin Tor, despite being destroyed casually by Archimonde not only repopulated but trump every other magical race and group by such a conspicuous margin that those groups might as well not even exist.

[Skytotem]

I meant that they should be opposing them.

Oh yeah, the minute garrosh bombed theramoore the entire kirin tor and cenarion circle should've helped the alliance dogpile the Horde.

And after Teldrassil, the Tauren should've straight up left the Horde and helped fight Sylvanas.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh yeah, the minute garrosh bombed theramoore the entire kirin tor and cenarion circle should've helped the alliance dogpile the Horde.

The Kirin Tor and the Sha'tar did, they sent military help to Theramore to help Jaina out and got dusted for their trouble.

The Cenarion Circle can't, because the only reason it exists is to nerf the Night Elves by inexplicably tying half their tech tree and premise onto a splinter of their race that's inexplicably ambivalent to their fate.

[Ameonna]

You can put most of the Alliance neutral organizations in that category, i think the most obvious ones are indead Dalaran and Argent Daw/Crusade which was meant to be related to Lordaeron so i dont really know why there is orcs in it.

Same could be said about the Silver Hand during Legion, which was a human organization of paladins which ended up accepting anyone who worship the Light even if its not the same Light...

Most of these organizations were Alliance related but became neutral due to gameplay and lost their purpose imo.

[Skytotem]

The Kirin Tor and the Sha'tar did, they sent military help to Theramore to help Jaina out and got dusted for their trouble.

The Cenarion Circle can't, because the only reason it exists is to nerf the Night Elves by inexplicably tying half their tech tree and premise onto a splinter of their race that's inexplicably ambivalent to their fate.

You're splitting story and writing flaws.

No reason the Kirin Tor and sha'tar shouldn't have gotten more involved after Theramoore, they didn't have a lot of forces there.

[Super Dickmann]

You're splitting story and writing flaws.

No reason the Kirin Tor and sha'tar shouldn't have gotten more involved after Theramoore, they didn't have a lot of forces there.

I mean, the Sha'tar caring about what's going on about some bint on another planet they never met who was already part of a war down to running out of troops strains credulity, but yes, the Kirin Tor should a) never have had their nonsensical power level or recovered to the extent they did b) never been neutral, given that they're one of the human kingdoms. Pandaria is the least guilty of all stories on this, as they do join the Alliance only slightly later and them not doing so sooner is less based on values - since they assist the Alliance anyway, but on Jaina's moodswings.

For the Cenarion Circle though, no, their story is their writing issue. If they had to at some point do something to get involved in the faction war they'll both cease their literal only reason for existing and they'd immediately raise massive questions because you'd wonder why they stood by while Ashenvale was being contested, but they care deeply about a human city in a dingy swamp.

[Jastall]

Factions as they were introduced never made any sense and it just got worse over time.

Horde: Orcs, Trolls, Tauren - story-focused on establishing themselves as a nation, redemption, spiritual connection to the elements, and maintaining balance via hunting

Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes - story focused the aftermath of the scourge and legion invasions, rebuilding the alliance as it had many members had withdrawn (gilneas and kul'tiras) or been destroyed/fractured (alterac, dalaran, stromgarde, lordaeron)

Night Elves: Sentinels, Watchers, Guardians - story focused on the waking of the druids and the night elven society finding where they fit now that they're open and known to the world, theological opposed to the horde's take on balance via hunting as they're fixed on living within nature and not along side it

Forsaken: Undead Humans/Elves/Orcs as per wc3 storylines (as Arthas wiped out the Orcs in the Alterac Mountains, Quel'Thalas and Lordaeron/Dalaran) opposed to the Alliance rebuilding itself as it would directly threaten their existence. Amoral and focused entirely of their own self-preservation at any cost


Resulting in a 4 way Battle Royale styled world. Battlegrounds would be faction v faction based on what made sense for the battleground. Blood Elves, "Draenei" (Should have been The Broken), Pandareans etc would all be neutral races where the player chose their affiliation.

This is really the only way they all make sense lore-wise.

Lorewise that way makes far, far more sense yes. Forsaken shackling their fates to the Horde (and vice versa) was silly, and the NEs deciding to obey their human overlords was even worse. BEs should have had a tenuous pact with Forsaken owing to Sylvanas herself; straight up joining the Horde because Garithos was mean and some NEs decided to attack them for no reason whatsoever was stupid and purely motivated by throwing the Horde a pretty race. That said, Draenei joining the NEs makes some sense, and I don't see them shaking hands with the Horde unless strictly necessary.

Gameplay wise this wouldn't have worked at all. Splitting the playerbase 2 way is already not ideal, splitting it 4 way (and we all know the ones with pretty races would have far more players) would be a nightmare. Making PvE faction agnostic as it is now would have been the only way to maybe make it work.

[Leodric]

The Kirin Tor and Cenarion Circle should have never stayed neutral after what the Horde did on numerous occasions. Can't think of any stuff the Alliance did where a neutral faction might have something against them. Maybe Jainas rampage in Dalaran but there she "only" killed Horde members as far as I can remember

[Soon-TM]

In the old days, there used to be a running joke in the community about how Alliance was the PvE faction and Horde the PvP one. And as is often the case with long enduring jokes, there is quite a bit of truth in it.

Most neutral (and PC-friendly ofc) organisations seem to be offshoots from an Alliance race set up with the sole purpose of allowing the Horde PC to take part in PvE activities. One of the most conspicuous examples is the Cenarion Circle, which could have perfectly been a purely nelf organisation - but since the Horde PC also had to be allowed to quest in Silithus and raid AQ, they pulled the CC out of their rear. This lazy "fix" would bite them in the ass come Cata, when Horde PCs had to be able to quest in Hyjal even if the Horde was quite busy at the time waging war against nelfs not too far from there.

The Argent Dawn/Crusade is an even clearer example. There was already a knightly institution that fought against the undead in Lordaeron, the Order of the Silver Hand. However, given that it was Alliance hard-coded, it had to be swept under the rug and replaced with a (supposedly) more "open" faction, since after all, Horde PCs needed a reason to quest in the Plaguelands - and in Northrend, later on, too. The Argent Crusade part was especially funny, with all those Orcs and Nelfs LARP'ing as human medieval knights.

Speaking of Northrend, the Horde being allowed in Dalaran was just dumb. Realistically, there should have been two capitals in Northrend, but if Ally had got the cool floating city (which made sense lore wise, Antonidas had been killed by the Scourge led by Arthas), its hypothetic Horde counterpart would have probably been a major flop.

In the meantime, any Horde-specific or Horde-themed organisations are simply forgotten along the way, e.g. the Earthen Ring or the Reliquary.

[Loveliest]

Thing about BEs being Horde is people actually try justifying an entire race going to the Horde because Garithos was a big meany to Kael'Thas and his band of traitors.

They were added as guinea pigs to balance the faction pops, glad people bought into it seeing as they are so popular on the Horde.

Bought into what? They're pretty and initially the only race that had paladins Horde side. There's nothing to buy into and most ppl don't give a crap about lore when choosing their chars. If not for looks, or them looking cool in a cinematic, then for racial and class access.

[Nymrohd]

I mean, the Sha'tar caring about what's going on about some bint on another planet they never met who was already part of a war down to running out of troops strains credulity, but yes, the Kirin Tor should a) never have had their nonsensical power level or recovered to the extent they did b) never been neutral, given that they're one of the human kingdoms. Pandaria is the least guilty of all stories on this, as they do join the Alliance only slightly later and them not doing so sooner is less based on values - since they assist the Alliance anyway, but on Jaina's moodswings.

For the Cenarion Circle though, no, their story is their writing issue. If they had to at some point do something to get involved in the faction war they'll both cease their literal only reason for existing and they'd immediately raise massive questions because you'd wonder why they stood by while Ashenvale was being contested, but they care deeply about a human city in a dingy swamp.

The Cenarion Circle only exists for gameplay purposes anyway. They wanted ONE faction specific class and they ended up with Paladin and Shaman. If the Kaldorei had been their own faction they could have kept Druids and the Tauren would not have needed druidic lore (which completely redefined them). The issue was class parity back in Vanilla not what story they wanted to tell or stripping the Kaldorei from the Ancients who in WC3 were part of their forces. Those were just unfortunate side effects.

[Feanoro]

What are the instances in the story where an organisation, kingdom/nation, individual or race was made or is neutral toward both the Alliance and the Horde, even though it doesn't make sense due to this individual and organisations history, culture and beliefs, and the race(s) that is/are part of it.

I have always felt that Dalaran and the Kirin Tor being made neutral was forced due to Dalaran being a founding and historical member of the Alliance of Lordaeron, being largely populated with humans, high elves, and dwarves and gnomes to a lesser degree; and having no positive experience with the Horde prior to WOW. Same for Khadgar who's a hero of the Alliance.

Also after everything the Horde has reslipped into its dark ways under Garrosh and Sylvanas, and their transgressions against nature, especially by the Goblins and even more by the Forsaken, the Cenarion Circle should have long excluded Horde members from its ranks.

Gameplay long ago took lore into a dark alley and beat it to death.

Nearly every group on Azeroth should despise the Horde to the point of kill on sight, but a "we wuz tricked" and all is sweetness and light.

[Nymrohd]

Gameplay wise this wouldn't have worked at all. Splitting the playerbase 2 way is already not ideal, splitting it 4 way (and we all know the ones with pretty races would have far more players) would be a nightmare. Making PvE faction agnostic as it is now would have been the only way to maybe make it work.

The game could have had multiple factions for story purposes while being cross faction for instanced PvE from day one. Many other similar games did that. Heck if the game was cross faction from day one, classes and abilities could have stayed exclusive to a single faction since for PvE balance you could assume a raid would have access to all faction classes. No need to create non-Kaldorei Druids, Horde Paladins or Alliance Shaman. DKs could have been exclusive to a Forsaken faction. Demon Hunters to the Illidari.

[Incognito23]

Horde should've started out as a treaty between troll and orc, with a cautionary approval towards the undead later, and with contention towards Ogres, who see a real threat in dwarves and humans.

Regardless of the hamfisted way Tauren were put in they never really belonged to the Horde. Too damn civilized...which disqualifies them from the Alliance as well.

You leave my grass grazing, flower loving cows alone!

[Syegfryed]

Thing about BEs being Horde is people actually try justifying an entire race going to the Horde because Garithos was a big meany to Kael'Thas and his band of traitors.

If you consider being a big meany the tentative of genocide of your race and assassinating your prince, in your lowest moment of history, and the rest of the faction just going along with it, yeah.

Of course there was a marketing reason of why they went horde, but tis astonishing how people downplay the reason they used for that to happen, and, like or not, it does make sense considering past events.

[Soon-TM]

Gameplay wise this wouldn't have worked at all. Splitting the playerbase 2 way is already not ideal, splitting it 4 way (and we all know the ones with pretty races would have far more players) would be a nightmare. Making PvE faction agnostic as it is now would have been the only way to maybe make it work.

Well, PvE could have been faction agnostic from the beginning. If anything, the "faction pride" stuff ought to be much more important in PvP than in PvE, yet mercenary mode came much, MUCH before they (begrudgingly) implemented crossfaction PvE... And the servers didn't explode back then, nor they do now with X-faction raids.

And it would have very easy to sell as a purely gameplay feature, much like e.g. Forsaken priests being able to spec Holy, even if lore wise they were all Shadow.

It's astonishing how people downplay the reason they used for that to happen, and, like or not, it does make sense considering past events.

Well, in this case you could probably tell that people learned this attitude from Blizz writers, who have a long habit of having the Alliance do some really funky things only to later handwave them away like npnp.

[Al Gorefiend]

Bought into what? They're pretty and initially the only race that had paladins Horde side. There's nothing to buy into and most ppl don't give a crap about lore when choosing their chars. If not for looks, or them looking cool in a cinematic, then for racial and class access.

they bought into selecting the pretty looking Alliance race as opposed to playing on the Alliance outright, a problem the game had in Vanilla - Alliance almost doubled Horde. Blizz knew the solution and executed it flawlessly. If rule of cool wasn't enough to make people go Horde, appeal to their pants.

[Mysterymask]

..all these threads can be summed up as "Maybe an MMO wasn't the best medium to convey this games lore"

[Shadowferal]

You leave my grass grazing, flower loving cows alone!

Y'know, it's funny. I was challenged on my revision of lore...regarding "progress of a people."
The fastest a people progress is during wartime. And those warring factions tend to get all intimidating and feeling muscular and pushy with those on the sidelines insisting on neutrality...unless the neutral party is immense and is a power in itself. Hence my idea of the united Tauren nations.