Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Mecheon]

Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

Nerubians aren't relevant to the Forsaken though. Like, I love Nerubians, but there's basically no hope of them becoming playable either way

Nerubians are one of the undead groups that specifically didn't end up with the Forsaken from what we've seen

[Ielenia]

Because Nerubians aren't beasts,

They don't have to be?

and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities.

So what?

It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You mean... like the Vial of Sands? We can fly with it, yes, but we can't use tail attacks, dragon magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

Zalandari are in constant contact with dinosaurs. Forsaken are not in constant contact with Nerubians.

So? They would if they came into contact with nerubians who would be willing to teach their magic. Just like goblins who were rarely (if ever) in contact with shamans back in Kezan can be shamans today.

Also dinosaurs are beasts, nerubians are not, they're sentient and highly intelligent like the mortal races. Again, it'd be like a Druid turning into a Dragon, Mantid, or a Mogu. Doesn't make sense.

Shaman can turn into ascendants, which are intelligent elementals. Demon hunters can turn into demons, which are intelligent. Besides, I don't see how the whole "intelligence" argument is supposed to work, here.

[ManjiSanji]

I don't think this will ever happen, but I want it more than anything.

New expansion should be Old God-based in some way, and this would be the perfect thing to do with it.

[Teriz]

Also missing the wide variety of other Dinomancers that don’t transform but instead use their magic to control Dinosaurs. Just like Hunters.

But why is that relevant? Blizzard purposely altered Dinomancers to fit into the Druid class. That can't be done with Nerubians.

How would it be low payoff?

Because it wouldn't greatly increase the number of players. Players would just view it as a neat gimmick and eventually ignore it. Blizzard would then be stuck with having to do ability animations multiple times over each expansion. Imagine having to do the animation for Flash of Light 5 times and come up with an icon for each version. That's several times the work for a spell that most Paladin players aren't going to care about.

Doesn’t seem to be that much work for warlock Green Fire and it’s practically the same thing.

Because that's one class. Multiply that by several times over several races and abilities, and hopefully you start to see the problem.

Arguably it’s more work for them to make a new class with 2-3 specs (especially given the new talent trees) and to then balance each and every talent and ability for the class.

Whereas with class skins the artists just throw together some new visuals if there’s a new spell.
Except this time new visuals they’re making actually stay after the expansion… unlike most artifact traits, Azerite traits/essences, covenant abilities… etc etc etc.

It's not only new spells, it's the old spells too. Also if you want to remove spells and bring in more new spells, then you need to do art for the new spell. If a new race is added, you may be redrawing several spells, and you workload has just increased by several fold. Then you have to make sure all the animation and art you did doesn't effect the balance of the class.

Conversely, you could be putting that effort into a new class or adjusting the classes you have.

Insects are beasts and there are several times in lore where Druids turn into insects. (Even with a raid boss doing so using a Nerubian skeleton/model)
Even playable druids now can have an insect flight form.

Forsaken would just have Nerubian inspired insect forms and blizzard could make up whatever lore they want to justify.
“Oh hey we’re druids focusing more on the ‘death’ side of the cycle of life and death.” Boom, Undead Druids.

And no insect abilities, so it would suck. Again, Blizzard wouldn't do that. They'll just do this;



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They don't have to be?

So what?

You mean... like the Vial of Sands? We can fly with it, yes, but we can't use tail attacks, dragon magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You're comparing a combat form to a mount?

So? They would if they came into contact with nerubians who would be willing to teach their magic. Just like goblins who were rarely (if ever) in contact with shamans back in Kezan can be shamans today.

But even that doesn't make sense, because a Forsaken turning into a Nerubian wouldn't have any Nerubian abilities, it would be standard Druid abilities. It'd be like a Rogue with a Blindfold and the Twin Warglaives of Azzinoth pretending to be a Demon Hunter. Sorry, but you're just a Rogue in a costume.

Shaman can turn into ascendants, which are intelligent elementals. Demon hunters can turn into demons, which are intelligent. Besides, I don't see how the whole "intelligence" argument is supposed to work, here.

Those are entirely different classes. Druids turn into Beasts, Moonkin, and variations of trees. We have a tainted bear form. Why wouldn't a Forsaken druid just turn into that? No convoluted lore necessary, and it actually makes sense within the class.

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I don't think this will ever happen, but I want it more than anything.

New expansion should be Old God-based in some way, and this would be the perfect thing to do with it.

Just curious, what would you prefer? The more caster-style spec (Crypt Lord tank form, RDPS caster, Healing caster), or the more Druid-style spec (Crypt Lord tank form, Ranged Mantid/Crypt Lord form (RDPS), Spider form (RDPS or Healing))?

[Nightshade711]

But why is that relevant? Blizzard purposely altered Dinomancers to fit into the Druid class. That can't be done with Nerubians.

And no insect abilities, so it would suck. Again, Blizzard wouldn't do that. They'll just do this;

They had no need to alter Dinomancers to make them Druids.
They could’ve still gotten Druids inspired from their Loa
No dinosaur abilities for Zandalari. They could’ve just done this.

Because it wouldn't greatly increase the number of players. Players would just view it as a neat gimmick and eventually ignore it. Blizzard would then be stuck with having to do ability animations multiple times over each expansion. Imagine having to do the animation for Flash of Light 5 times and come up with an icon for each version. That's several times the work for a spell that most Paladin players aren't going to care about.

Same can be said for Warlock Green Fire. Artifact skins, the EXTENSIVE dragon customization for dragonriding (that’s not even usable outside of DF and Blizzard wasn’t even sure if they were gonna continue dragonriding after DF) etc etc.

Because that's one class. Multiply that by several times over several races and abilities, and hopefully you start to see the problem.

Yet you conveniently ignore the almost countless other spell visuals and abilities that they put so much work into just to be abandoned over an expansion. (Throwback to all the rank 4 cosmetic essences that weren’t even seen after BfA)

Whereas with class skins they can make it evergreen content that lasts forever, sort of like Warlock green fire.
Tie it into content and it’ll be an easy win.

It's not only new spells, it's the old spells too. Also if you want to remove spells and bring in more new spells, then you need to do art for the new spell. If a new race is added, you may be redrawing several spells, and you workload has just increased by several fold.

You don’t need a new class skin for every single race/class combo lol.

Then you have to make sure all the animation and art you did doesn't effect the balance of the class.

This won’t affect class balance lol. Warlock green fire never did. Neither did cosmetic glyphs

Conversely, you could be putting that effort into a new class or adjusting the classes you have.

In your opinion. This argument can be used for literally everything.
They also could’ve put all the effort for Dragonriding customization into racial customization for other races. They could’ve not added Evoker but instead focused on balancing existing classes… etc etc etc.

[Ielenia]

You're comparing a combat form to a mount?

You're the one saying "give it a form without letting it use any sort of abilities". Forsaken druids can easily have their abilities re-themed for the nerubians with glyphs.

But even that doesn't make sense, because a Forsaken turning into a Nerubian wouldn't have any Nerubian abilities, it would be standard Druid abilities.

Glyphs.

Those are entirely different classes.

It doesn't matter that they're different classes. Your argument was that druids shouldn't be able to turn into nerubians because they're intelligent beings, to which I pointed out that the intelligence of the form they're turning into doesn't matter because classes like DHs and shamans turn into intelligent creatures.

But, if you want to keep this restricted to druidism, then I'll let you know that the entities who grant the druid those forms are also "highly intelligent creatures". The Wild Gods for the vanilla shamans and I think worgen druids too, loa for the trolls and zandalari trolls, and whatever the Thornspeakers worship.

[Triceron]

Nerubians aren't relevant to the Forsaken though. Like, I love Nerubians, but there's basically no hope of them becoming playable either way

Nerubians are one of the undead groups that specifically didn't end up with the Forsaken from what we've seen

Even a playable Nerubian-like race who had access to Druid class would suffice, if that's the case. And if accessed through a Cosmetic, then it could be inferred that the allied Nerubians taught other Druid races how to obtain the form. Much like how Flame Cat and Werebear are accessible to any Druid after unlocking.

[Teriz]

They had no need to alter Dinomancers to make them Druids.
They could’ve still gotten Druids inspired from their Loa
No dinosaur abilities for Zandalari. They could’ve just done this.

Uh take it up with Blizzard? That's a cool form that Druids should have. Also Zalandari Druids should get more (and better) Dinosaur forms, like actual Raptors, Direhorns, and Devilsaurs.

Same can be said for Warlock Green Fire. Artifact skins, the EXTENSIVE dragon customization for dragonriding (that’s not even usable outside of DF and Blizzard wasn’t even sure if they were gonna continue dragonriding after DF) etc etc.

Yeah, but that's still not at the level of class abilities which get changed constantly.

Yet you conveniently ignore the almost countless other spell visuals and abilities that they put so much work into just to be abandoned over an expansion. (Throwback to all the rank 4 cosmetic essences that weren’t even seen after BfA)

Whereas with class skins they can make it evergreen content that lasts forever, sort of like Warlock green fire.
Tie it into content and it’ll be an easy win.

You can't make every ability ever green though. Some abilities have to be cycled out, which would make them a waste of art assets.

You don’t need a new class skin for every single race/class combo lol.

You wouldn't need that much for it to still be a ton of work. Take your Nerubian class skin ideas; You were saying that we could change Cyclone to Webs, reskin feral charge into a burrow attack, and turn Force of Nature into Nightmare swarm. So what if Druids lose Cyclone again? What if they lose Feral Charge? Further, what if Zalandari druids want more Dino-centric attacks since the bugs got more insect based-attacks? Well now you need to make new ability skins for them as well. That's way more work than simply giving Druids the same abilities across the board, which they're currently doing.

This won’t affect class balance lol. Warlock green fire never did. Neither did cosmetic glyphs

When you say that you're going to turn Force of Nature into Nightmare Swarm, that effects balance.

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You're the one saying "give it a form without letting it use any sort of abilities". Forsaken druids can easily have their abilities re-themed for the nerubians with glyphs.

Glyphs.

Blizzard couldn't even be pressed to make Druid dinosaur forms anything other than reskinned Cat and Bear forms, and you think they're going to give Forsaken a Crypt Lord form along with an entire set of reskinned abilities?

That's laughable.

Also this is right back to one druid race getting something no other druid race is getting. Dinomancer Druids won't be happy if Forsaken get an actual new form and unique abilities when all they got was a reptile version of Bears and Cats.

It doesn't matter that they're different classes. Your argument was that druids shouldn't be able to turn into nerubians because they're intelligent beings, to which I pointed out that the intelligence of the form they're turning into doesn't matter because classes like DHs and shamans turn into intelligent creatures.

Which is part of their lore. Druids turning into intelligent beings isn't part of their lore. Their lore is turning into beasts.

[Nightshade711]

You can't make every ability ever green though. Some abilities have to be cycled out, which would make them a waste of art assets.

Which is the same with every new spell visuals they ever make for raids, dungeons, borrowed power, new spells they just remove a patch or two later, etc.

You can't make every ability ever green though. Some abilities have to be cycled out, which would make them a waste of art assets.

You wouldn't need that much for it to still be a ton of work. Take your Nerubian class skin ideas; You were saying that we could change Cyclone to Webs, reskin feral charge into a burrow attack, and turn Force of Nature into Nightmare swarm. So what if Druids lose Cyclone again? What if they lose Feral Charge?

Blizzard puts a lot of effort into things that’re phased out the next expansion anyways. (Sometimes they’re phased away in a following patch)

Better to put effort into a system that the community clearly wants in some way, that isn’t guaranteed to go away.

If abilities are removed, then they lose the abilities, simple as.

Further, what if Zalandari druids want more Dino-centric attacks since the bugs got more insect based-attacks?

Then they just wouldn’t use the class skin that changed their abilities in the first place?
A Zandalari won’t be forced to use a nightmare/insect based class skin anyways.

When you say that you're going to turn Force of Nature into Nightmare Swarm, that effects balance.

How? Turn three trees into three bugs. They’d have the same damage and abilities.

[Triceron]

Uh take it up with Blizzard? That's a cool form that Druids should have. Also Zalandari Druids should get more (and better) Dinosaur forms, like actual Raptors, Direhorns, and Devilsaurs.

Agreed!

Should be quite possible once they start opening up more race comboes and customizations and ease away from just giving everyone bears and boomkins. Just a matter of time.

[Teriz]

Which is the same with every new spell visuals they ever make for raids, dungeons, borrowed power, new spells they just remove a patch or two later, etc.

Yeah, but its just one spell. If that spell has multiple versions in multiple races, you're doing that work multiple times over.

Blizzard puts a lot of effort into things that’re phased out the next expansion anyways. (Sometimes they’re phased away in a following patch)

Better to put effort into a system that the community clearly wants in some way, that isn’t guaranteed to go away.

If abilities are removed, then they lose the abilities, simple as.

Or not bother and use those art assets to give Druids more forms like the one you posted above.

Then they just wouldn’t use the class skin that changed their abilities in the first place?
A Zandalari won’t be forced to use a nightmare/insect based class skin anyways.

No, I'm saying a Zandalari druid is going to want what the Forsaken druid got, and thus you begin the cycle where everyone wants their own set of abilities to match their forms.

How? Turn three trees into three bugs. They’d have the same damage and abilities.

That isn't Nightmare Swarm though. Nightmare Swarm spawns eggs and the caster decides when to hatch them. The longer the caster waits, the stronger the spiderlings get, and they gain abilities. They also utilize poison, something Druids don't have.

FoN just taunts and the treants attack with melee.

[Ielenia]

Blizzard couldn't even be pressed to make Druid dinosaur forms anything other than reskinned Cat and Bear forms, and you think they're going to give Forsaken a Crypt Lord form along with an entire set of reskinned abilities?

And before the Zandalari druids, we would be saying that Blizzard would never give druid forms anything that isn't a bear or a cat. But now we got dinosaurs. Not only that, but the Zandalari balance form is not the moonkin model and uses the 'high arakkoa' model from WoD so precedent exists to give druid forms different models to specific races.

Their lore is turning into beasts.

Except the Kul'tiran druids, who turn into wicker constructs? Did you forget about them?

[Teriz]

And before the Zandalari druids, we would be saying that Blizzard would never give druid forms anything that isn't a bear or a cat. But now we got dinosaurs.

Which are just bears and cats.

Not only that, but the Zandalari balance form is not the moonkin model and uses the 'high arakkoa' model from WoD so precedent exists to give druid forms different models to specific races.

Whoop dee doo. Using that model wasn't too pressing because it already had casting animations. It looks exactly like the high arakkoa model too.

You're saying a company that is doing that is going to give a Druid race a Crypt Lord model and reskinned abilities?

Except the Kul'tiran druids, who turn into wicker constructs? Did you forget about them?

Wicker bears and cats are still just bears and cats with a coat of paint.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah, but its just one spell. If that spell has multiple versions in multiple races, you're doing that work multiple times over.

Oh the humanity, doing the work you’re getting paid for.
You’re acting like they’ve only got one VFX artist on their whole team.

Or not bother and use those art assets to give Druids more forms like the one you posted above.

Exactly, they could use the art assets to give them new forms. Like Nerubian inspired Druid forms.
Not like Blizzard is opposed to giving druids new/different skeletons for their forms.

No, I'm saying a Zandalari druid is going to want what the Forsaken druid got, and thus you begin the cycle where everyone wants their own set of abilities to match their forms.

Then they can roll a Forsaken if they want the Forsaken’s class Druid forms.
Or use the class skin if it’s a class skin.

That isn't Nightmare Swarm though. Nightmare Swarm spawns eggs and the caster decides when to hatch them. The longer the caster waits, the stronger the spiderlings get, and they gain abilities. They also utilize poison, something Druids don't have.

FoN just taunts and the treants attack with melee.

For that specific boss sure.
The it’d simply be reworked to be a FoN (or denizen of the dream) reskin if anything.
Denizen of the Dream actually works mechanically similar to your idea for passively summoning beetles as a Crypt Lord.

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Whoop dee doo. Using that model wasn't too pressing because it already had casting animations. It looks exactly like the high arakkoa model too.

You're saying a company that is doing that is going to give a Druid race a Crypt Lord model and reskinned abilities?

Um, I don’t know if you know this… but Nerubians also have casting and melee animations that’d be used in Nerubian inspired forms.

[Teriz]

Oh the humanity, doing the work you’re getting paid for.
You’re acting like they’ve only got one VFX artist on their whole team.

It isn't that. It's that you're tacking on work that will only get more intensive over time, really isn't necessary, and will give few dividends in the long run.

Exactly, they could use the art assets to give them new forms. Like Nerubian inspired Druid forms.
Not like Blizzard is opposed to giving druids new/different skeletons for their forms.

But they have no reason to do that when they can simply give Forsaken tainted animals. It's far less work and far more appropriate.

Then they can roll a Forsaken if they want the Forsaken’s class Druid forms.
Or use the class skin if it’s a class skin.

What if they like their Dino form but just wants the reskinned abilities like the bug druids are getting? Are they SoL?

For that specific boss sure.
The it’d simply be reworked to be a FoN (or denizen of the dream) reskin if anything.

And that's why this doesn't work, because we constantly have to restrict concepts to an unrelated ability. If this were a new Nerubian class, the player could actually get Nightmare Swarm and not worry about being locked under a druid spell. It's like you're trying to change WoW into SWTOR.

[Triceron]

What if they like their Dino form but just wants the reskinned abilities like the bug druids are getting? Are they SoL?

Form customizations are done through Barbershop.

Abilities are modified through Glyphs.

[Ielenia]

Which are just bears and cats.

Wrong. The ankylosaur might use the bear skeleton, but it's a completely new model that is different than the normal druid bear form. On top of that, the Zandalari druid's Feral spec form is not a cat at all, model, skeleton or animations: it is a raptor. So yes, here we have Blizzard giving a specific druid race something unique that the others do not have.

Whoop dee doo. Using that model wasn't too pressing because it already had casting animations. It looks exactly like the high arakkoa model too.

And you don't think nerubians have attack and casting animations?

You're saying a company that is doing that is going to give a Druid race a Crypt Lord model and reskinned abilities?

Why not?

Wicker bears and cats are still just bears and cats with a coat of paint.

Except we're not talking about "coat of paints" or game mechanics. You set the conversation to be about the lore:

Which is part of their lore. Druids turning into intelligent beings isn't part of their lore. Their lore is turning into beasts.

[Nightshade711]

It isn't that. It's that you're tacking on work that will only get more intensive over time, really isn't necessary, and will give few dividends in the long run.

I don’t see how it gets more intensive.
You’re the one making a false assumption that they’d make one for every single race/class combo.

But they have no reason to do that when they can simply give Forsaken tainted animals. It's far less work and far more appropriate.

Not necessarily. They might not even have to add many new animations to the Nerubian forms.
Given all of the animations that the base Nerubian skeleton has been given in almost every expansion since Vanilla.

Same can be said for a lot of things.
“It’d less work to give paladins the base charger” (which they used to do)

How would it be “far more appropriate”? Especially since you don’t know the lore on how an Undead Druid would work when blizzard chooses to implement them.

What if they like their Dino form but just wants the reskinned abilities like the bug druids are getting? Are they SoL?

Then it’s likely they could have it, because you can customize Druid forms in the barber shop.
It’s why I can have the Werebear form on my Zandalari Druid if I want it.

And that's why this doesn't work, because we constantly have to restrict concepts to an unrelated ability. If this were a new Nerubian class, the player could actually get Nightmare Swarm and not worry about being locked under a druid spell. It's like you're trying to change WoW into SWTOR.

How doesn’t it work exactly?
You’re talking about summoning minions, especially passively earlier in the thread. The visuals don’t matter.

They’ve reworked abilities before but kept their name. Take Retribution Aura for example which started as a “deal holy damage to melee attackers.” Same counts for “nightmare swarm”

[Teriz]

Form customizations are done through Barbershop.

Abilities are modified through Glyphs.

So we are to believe that Zalandari Druids are also getting reskinned abilities?

[Nightshade711]

So we are to believe that Zalandari Druids are also getting reskinned abilities?

If they want to use the glyphs (or hypothetical class skins)
Then yes. There is no reason they couldn’t those those reskinned abilities.