Is this the easiest Normal/Heroic Raid ever?

[Osmeric]

So what they're REALLY saying is "few people cleared Sunwell"? Because that's not really helping make the point they were trying to make.

I think most guilds stopped at Karazhan.

There's a reason the devs were compelled to make Wrath easier.

[Onikaroshi]

I think most guilds stopped at Karazhan.

There's a reason the devs were compelled to make Wrath easier.

ZA was insanely popular too, I think people just like smaller group content over 25, it's logistically easier to set up.

[Biomega]

I think most guilds stopped at Karazhan.

Gonna have to ask for a source on that.

[Osmeric]

Gonna have to ask for a source on that.

I cannot give that. Achievements weren't a thing yet, so there's no hard public data. If you don't want to agree with my take, that's perfectly fine. But that sword cuts two ways -- what's the evidence that raids in BC (beyond Karazhan) were easy? I mean, they didn't make Naxx 2.0 as easy as it was just for shits and giggles.

[Jastall]

Definitely feels easier than anything since Legion. There's only 3 bosses with mechanics you have to respect- Zskarn, Neltharion and Sarkareth. Everything else either has really easy mechanics to execute, or is so forgiving that at most you'll wipe a couple times then take the boss more seriously and massacre it. And then there's the 7th boss which is such a complete joke that the trash leading up to the first boss is legit harder.

Sarkareth himself is also notably easier than Raz was. Does help that the upgrade system showers you with gear tho.

[Biomega]

I cannot give that.

So you don't KNOW that, either. You're just CLAIMING it as it conveniently supports your point, but you have nothing that says it's true in any way. This shouldn't just not convince anyone else, it shouldn't even convince YOU.

But that sword cuts two ways -- what's the evidence that raids in BC (beyond Karazhan) were easy?

That's not a claim I'm making. I wouldn't make it, because I have no way to back it up. I don't know if it goes one way or another, so I don't go on a public forum and make bold statements saying things I can't back up in some way.

[Osmeric]

So you don't KNOW that, either. You're just CLAIMING it as it conveniently supports your point, but you have nothing that says it's true in any way. This shouldn't just not convince anyone else, it shouldn't even convince YOU.

That's not a claim I'm making. I wouldn't make it, because I have no way to back it up. I don't know if it goes one way or another, so I don't go on a public forum and make bold statements saying things I can't back up in some way.

I can make the statement, but I also have to add it's just from what I observed and remembered, not something I can give hard documentation for.

(Of course, even wowprogress stats of current raids are dismissed by white knights as invalid, for reasons.)

But anyway, why do you think they made WotLK much easier? The simple explanation was because tBC raid participation was low. Why would they have done that if it hadn't been low?

[Biomega]

But anyway, why do you think they made WotLK much easier?

Prove that WotLK was "much easier", first.

I have a suspicion that what you mean is "Naxx was easier than Sunwell", not that the expansion that introduced hardmodes and heroic difficulty was unequivocally easier raiding.

[Tech614]

I think most guilds stopped at Karazhan.

There's a reason the devs were compelled to make Wrath easier.

You are confusing easier barrier to entry with easier. There is 3 fights in Ulduar alone that are harder than anything in BC and that's not even taking ICC/Lich King heroic 25 into account which makes mu'ru look like a basic bitch.

Overall raiding in WoW got more difficult with every xpac through WoD and has been around that same difficulty curve give or take a little depending on the tier since then(with outliers both ways like sepulcher/tomb or EN/Aberrus). BC raiding was certainly not easier than lich king raiding. Easier barrier to entry does not make it easier, the only reason sunwell had such a low clear rate was due to it requiring a full t6 geared group already and to farm t6 you had to be t5 geared etc, just an old, stupid dated system that got better over time. You shouldn't have to go back to clear old ass raids cause 5 people in your guild left and you had to recruit kara/badge geared people.

If you wanted to make an example of players reacting negatively to harder content an actual example would be cata launch after lich king, not trying to make some bullshit claim about BC being harder than wrath.

[Osmeric]

Prove that WotLK was "much easier", first.

I have a suspicion that what you mean is "Naxx was easier than Sunwell", not that the expansion that introduced hardmodes and heroic difficulty was unequivocally easier raiding.

If you don't think Wrath was much easier I don't think we have any space for continuing this discussion. Bye!

[jeezusisacasual]

What are you talking about? Almost no one cleared all the raids in TBC. Did you mean WotLK?

By todays standard not in actually 2007 that would be boring as shit to anyone who takes pride in playing. That being said i am not one of those ultra min/maxer either just your standard why bother playing something if your terrible at it player. That being said i think the tyrannical dungeons are harder then almost every boss in Heroic with healing checks being more prevalent ( was this due to the 4 dps 1 tank comp that was clearly not the norm last season? ) but this just means join a pug raid i guess.

[Osmeric]

By todays standard not in actually 2007 that would be boring as shit to anyone who takes pride in playing.

Yes, it was easy if you insult and discard all those for whom it wasn't easy.

[Tech614]

By todays standard not in actually 2007 that would be boring as shit to anyone who takes pride in playing. That being said i am not one of those ultra min/maxer either just your standard why bother playing something if your terrible at it player. That being said i think the tyrannical dungeons are harder then almost every boss in Heroic with healing checks being more prevalent ( was this due to the 4 dps 1 tank comp that was clearly not the norm last season? ) but this just means join a pug raid i guess.

The healing checks where bad last season also and the 4 dps comps only worked while stacking classes that can offheal their asses off like shadow, enhance, cat and prot paladin. A group like that actually has more hps than a comp with a healer and no off healing dps/tanks. Comps like that will also work this season once fully geared unless they nerf the fuck out of the off healing, a dps being able to press a button and instantly do 50k hps is beyond absurd esp on classes like a shadow priest that already bring a dumb tool kit of support even without that. Perfectly balanced for a spec to have PI, mass dispel and vampiric embrace why would anyone want to run a M+ without this broken ass shit.

[jeezusisacasual]

Yes, it was easy if you insult and discard all those for whom it wasn't easy.

If they are so weak willed to not be able to handle criticism then perhaps a game in which in you interact with people ( with all of its information ready at the fingertips ) is not for them and thats okay also. However if they want to become better and learn to grapple with the challenges they are encouraged to participate in then perhaps looking at that very same data set should be seen as a positive.

Also i am casual myself mind you, i will log perhaps 30 to 45 hours for an entire season but will clear the raid on Heroic and get KSH and then piss off until the next season ( i am actually 3 bosses down in Mythic raid with next weeks dungeons i will get KSH ). Being introspective about what your goals is always a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -

The healing checks where bad last season also and the 4 dps comps only worked while stacking classes that can offheal their asses off like shadow, enhance, cat and prot paladin. A group like that actually has more hps than a comp with a healer and no off healing dps/tanks. Comps like that will also work this season once fully geared unless they nerf the fuck out of the off healing, a dps being able to press a button and instantly do 50k hps is beyond absurd esp on classes like a shadow priest that already bring a dumb tool kit of support even without that. Perfectly balanced for a spec to have PI, mass dispel and vampiric embrace why would anyone want to run a M+ without this broken ass shit.

Ahh i played with a Resto SHM 90% of the time as a Brewmaster monk with the rest pug dps perhaps thats why i viewed it as not very healing intensive.