[Megathread] Nintendo Switch

[jackofwind]

I'll take bad takes for $1000, Alex.

You're right, it definitely has some of the very best dungeons in the entire franchise.

[Darththeo]

You're right, it definitely has some of the very best dungeons in the entire franchise.

Dungeons aren't what makes a Zelda game.

Also, the only game that is rated higher is Ocarina of Time (depending on how you count the reviews of the game).

Breath of the Wild broke the mold that Zelda was stuck in.

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No that is really stupid and it never stops being dumb. The problem is that since you can do the temples in any order they all have to reiterate the same information with only minor variation.

While it is dumb, remember that information in story isn't really for the player. Link is just kind of there for a message for another character. They are all a message to the new sage from the old sage. I would have liked some more differences in the speeches though. They all recap the Imprisoning War the same way and the only differences are with the Zelda - Old Sage flashback, where they mention the races and the Gerudo get a little more flavor due to the Ganondorf connection.

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My biggest issue with TOTK is in fact the story, I won't go into details cause of spoilers.

I get that each Zelda game is kinda its own world but TOTK shits all over established lore/events including BOTW. If they released this game and didn't say it was a squeal to BOTW it wouldn't have mattered any. Like I said I won't deep dive into detail cause of spoilers but ya the story is very much the weakest part of the game imo.

Well, Zelda hasn't ever been big on maintaining a coherent timeline. There are barely any references to the prior game, they are some. But, in five years, they have cleaned up the Guardians that were everywhere (there is only one wrecked Guardian in the game at all and it is used for decoration.) The pillars that contained Guardians in the first game are completely gone. Kohga and the Yiga reference their defeat prior..

[Katchii]

Dungeons aren't what makes a Zelda game.

They were definitely a huge part of the old Zelda formula though.

Also, the only game that is rated higher is Ocarina of Time (depending on how you count the reviews of the game).

Breath of the Wild broke the mold that Zelda was stuck in.

Not saying anything bad about the current iteration, but I liked the old mold more, I'm not a fan of the new one. Just not my type of game.

[Ausr]

You're right, it definitely has some of the very best dungeons in the entire franchise.

What does having the best dungeons in the game matter? Did they have dungeons? Yes? So... you had a bad take.

[jackofwind]

Dungeons aren't what makes a Zelda game

Dungeons and the progression of getting key items from dungeons to unlock further dungeons and map areas are absolutely major components of the Zelda formula. Or at least they were until BotW.

Sometimes you don't need to break the mold when the mold is great.

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What does having the best dungeons in the game matter? Did they have dungeons? Yes? So... you had a bad take.

BotW has nothing even worth calling a dungeon. The Divine Beasts are barely the length of a regular Zelda dungeon when combined, and they suck. They're generic and lack individual identity and variety. They're short, simple, and present no challenge whatsoever, whether it be puzzle-solving or combat. Not to mention the bosses are literally just reskins of each other.

Intricate dungeons are a mainstay of the Zelda series, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone with half a brain that many people would be disappointed by the lack of even a single decent dungeon existing in BotW. The Yiga Clan Hideout is the closest the game gets to a decent dungeon and boss and it's still disappointing.

It's clearly hard for you to understand, but there are people that prefer the original Zelda formula. Just because a game is highly rated doesn't mean everyone needs to like it. There are valid reasons to dislike BotW as a Zelda game, because it's a huge departure from a typical Zelda game.

[Ausr]

Dungeons and the progression of getting key items from dungeons to unlock further dungeons and map areas are absolutely major components of the Zelda formula. Or at least they were until BotW.

Sometimes you don't need to break the mold when the mold is great.

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BotW has nothing even worth calling a dungeon. The Divine Beasts are barely the length of a regular Zelda dungeon when combined, and they suck. They're generic and lack individual identity and variety. They're short, simple, and present no challenge whatsoever, whether it be puzzle-solving or combat. Not to mention the bosses are literally just reskins of each other.

Intricate dungeons are a mainstay of the Zelda series, so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone with half a brain that many people would be disappointed by the lack of even a single decent dungeon existing in BotW. The Yiga Clan Hideout is the closest the game gets to a decent dungeon and boss and it's still disappointing.

It's clearly hard for you to understand, but there are people that prefer the original Zelda formula. Just because a game is highly rated doesn't mean everyone needs to like it. There are valid reasons to dislike BotW as a Zelda game, because it's a huge departure from a typical Zelda game.

They are dungeons whether you whine about it or not.

Guess what, the future of Zelda seems to be what Breath and Tears are bringing. Seeing as Breath outsold the last traditional Zelda games by about 28 million units so I guess there are people who want something new.

[jackofwind]

They are dungeons whether you whine about it or not.

Guess what, the future of Zelda seems to be what Breath and Tears are bringing. Seeing as Breath outsold the last traditional Zelda games by about 28 million units so I guess there are people who want something new.

I never said BotW doesn't have dungeons, I mocked it for having terrible dungeons. You're clearly not even reading the posts.

I have also said that I fully understand that most people like BotW - I have no problem with that. Regurgitating sales stats doesn't do anything to change my opinion that the game was disappointing. Why are you so bent on defending the game instead of just accepting that some people don't like it?

[MatadorMedia]

The lack of traditional dungeons definitely hampers the newer Zeldas. BOTW was a stellar achievement and TOTK expands the game(s) exponentially. But, they lacked that old Zelda dungeon feel. At least they added temples into TOTK, but they felt barren and lifeless with little to no enemy presence, just glorified shrine puzzles. As such, neither of the newer Zeldas is my favorite, but they can rightfully have their 10/10 for being an astounding sandbox open world game.

[Ausr]

I never said BotW doesn't have dungeons, I mocked it for having terrible dungeons. You're clearly not even reading the posts.

I have also said that I fully understand that most people like BotW - I have no problem with that. Regurgitating sales stats doesn't do anything to change my opinion that the game was disappointing. Why are you so bent on defending the game instead of just accepting that some people don't like it?

I never said you said they didn't have dungeons. I said they were dungeons whether you whined about it or not. The irony of saying I don't read posts.

You're right. I'm all up in this thread defending BotW with my life. You got me. Clearly in any one of my posts in thread white knighting this game I shit on each and every person for having a differing opinion.

[Darththeo]

They were definitely a huge part of the old Zelda formula though.

Not as much as you think.

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Dungeons and the progression of getting key items from dungeons to unlock further dungeons and map areas are absolutely major components of the Zelda formula. Or at least they were until BotW.

Sometimes you don't need to break the mold when the mold is great.

Except the mold wasn't great. Zelda was stagnant before Breath of the Wild. Look at the sales of Nintendo's "Big Three" - Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. You'll see that Zelda is lacking. Zelda was going to become a niche franchise, if not a dead one, if not for BotW.

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I never said BotW doesn't have dungeons, I mocked it for having terrible dungeons. You're clearly not even reading the posts.

I have also said that I fully understand that most people like BotW - I have no problem with that. Regurgitating sales stats doesn't do anything to change my opinion that the game was disappointing. Why are you so bent on defending the game instead of just accepting that some people don't like it?

This kind of logic can be turned around on you. Why are you so set on crapping on BotW?

[jackofwind]

Except the mold wasn't great. Zelda was stagnant before Breath of the Wild. Look at the sales of Nintendo's "Big Three" - Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda. You'll see that Zelda is lacking. Zelda was going to become a niche franchise, if not a dead one, if not for BotW.

Zelda was stagnant? Skyward Sword (ie: the title before BotW) was critically acclaimed when it came out.

Zelda was in no danger of becoming a dead franchise, that's complete nonsense.

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This kind of logic can be turned around on you. Why are you so set on crapping on BotW?

I'm not, I made a single comment about not enjoying BotW and had someone jumped on me. I've literally said multiple times that I have no issue with most people liking the game. Clearly it's hugely successful.

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I never said you said they didn't have dungeons. I said they were dungeons whether you whined about it or not. The irony of saying I don't read posts.

You're right. I'm all up in this thread defending BotW with my life. You got me. Clearly in any one of my posts in thread white knighting this game I shit on each and every person for having a differing opinion.

You're talking in circles and making no sense.

I said I didn't like the dungeons, and I laid out some reasons. Responding with "They're still dungeons even if you think they're bad" is a nonsensical response. Why would you say "They're dungeons whether you whine about it or not" if I was never calling into question them being dungeons in the first place? It's like me saying I don't like the texture of apples and you saying "Yeah well they still have Vitamin C whether you like it or not". Like...okay?

You seem to be taking this super personally. You quite literally started this whole thing by saying me not enjoying BotW was a "bad take". It's not a bad take, it's a completely valid opinion.

I never said you were wrong for liking the game, so why would I be wrong for not liking it?

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Guess what, the future of Zelda seems to be what Breath and Tears are bringing. Seeing as Breath outsold the last traditional Zelda games by about 28 million units so I guess there are people who want something new.

And that's fine, I'm happy people get to play the games they want. Me disliking the new direction isn't a "bad take" though, it's just a personal opinion. I also really dislike salmon - is that a bad take just because lots of other people love it?

[Darththeo]

Zelda was stagnant? Skyward Sword (ie: the title before BotW) was critically acclaimed when it came out.

Zelda was in no danger of becoming a dead franchise, that's complete nonsense.

Skyward Sword didn't even sell 4 million copies with its first release. The Wii was a hugely popular console, and only about 3% of Wii owners owned Skyward Sword. Even the remake of Link's Awakening for the Switch sold more copies. In fact, even combining the first and rerelease of Skyward Sword, the remake of Link's Awakening is only about a million units behind. (And keep in mind both the remake of Link's Awakening and Skyward Sword HD are in the post BotW world).

Also, wasn't the title before Breath of the Wild. You had two other games besides rereleases between Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild (seriously, the fact you think Skyward Sword was the Zelda game before Breath of the Wild is evidence for my point.) There was a Link between Worlds (A somewhat sequel to a Link to the Past), and Triforce Heroes. Also, you have Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD releases and Majora's Mask 3D for the 3DS.

Also, it is funny you whine about people not reading your posts and you failed to read mine. My point wasn't Zelda would be a dead franchise, but a niche one if not dead. (meaning that death was possible, not likely). How acclaimed a game is doesn't mean the franchise is alive and well, that is based on sales. Breath of the Wild sold nearly 3 times as many units as the best selling Zelda game (Ocarina of Time if you combine both the original and 3D releases) and almost 4 times as much as the prior best single release (Twilight Princess). Objectively the best thing for Zelda series was the break the mold, you personally don't have to like it but it objectively move the series into a better position.

[Katchii]

Not as much as you think.

Some elaboration is required here. The dungeons were a HUGE portion of every Zelda game prior to BotW, just as much as the rest of it. The amount of time spent doing dungeon stuff was a large part of the game. Getting to them, what you did in them, the puzzles and bosses within...

So, you're going to need to provide a bit more context.

[hellhamster]

I see the logic fail of "Zelda game with meh dungeons equals bad game" quite often on the internet. People are seriously advocating that a game as revolutionary as BOTW, that has thousands upon thousands of fresh ideas and new systems, is a bad game because it doesn't focus on a microscopic portion of its vast world as well as the previous games, which are much smaller.

Complaining about a hair in your food is valid. Complaining about a hair in a house you wanna buy is stupid.

[Darththeo]

Some elaboration is required here. The dungeons were a HUGE portion of every Zelda game prior to BotW, just as much as the rest of it. The amount of time spent doing dungeon stuff was a large part of the game. Getting to them, what you did in them, the puzzles and bosses within...

So, you're going to need to provide a bit more context.

Except they literally are not. Dungeons are a minority of content in every game And they are a subset of the puzzle solving content that exists in Zelda games. Dungeons are fun, but they aren't what make or breaks a Zelda game.

People overblow how important dungeons are to the Zelda franchise. If you actually look at the entire content of Zelda games, most content isn't dungeon related and this is especially true of the 3D Zelda games. Exploration and Puzzle solving have been a part of the game since the first one, and Dungeons are often a subset of that aspect of the game.

Again, they aren't that big of a part as people think. They are a part, just not as large as people think.

[Katchii]

Except they literally are not. Dungeons are a minority of content in every game And they are a subset of the puzzle solving content that exists in Zelda games. Dungeons are fun, but they aren't what make or breaks a Zelda game.

I never said they make or break the game, only that they were a substantial part of them.

People overblow how important dungeons are to the Zelda franchise. If you actually look at the entire content of Zelda games, most content isn't dungeon related and this is especially true of the 3D Zelda games. Exploration and Puzzle solving have been a part of the game since the first one, and Dungeons are often a subset of that aspect of the game.

Again, they aren't that big of a part as people think. They are a part, just not as large as people think.

Sounds like you're really just downplaying how much they are a part of the games. Ocarina of Time, one of the 3D games you're saying had less dungeon content, had 11 dungeons and a very large amount of the rest of the content in that game is figuring out how to get into those dungeons or going through quests and puzzles, etc... to do what you know you need to do to get there. I'm not saying the majority of time is spent literally inside a dungeon, but that large portions of the game revolve around them.

[Tech614]

I see the logic fail of "Zelda game with meh dungeons equals bad game" quite often on the internet. People are seriously advocating that a game as revolutionary as BOTW, that has thousands upon thousands of fresh ideas and new systems, is a bad game because it doesn't focus on a microscopic portion of its vast world as well as the previous games, which are much smaller.

Complaining about a hair in your food is valid. Complaining about a hair in a house you wanna buy is stupid.

Disagree that BoTW had "thousands of fresh ideas and new systems". It had a pretty innovative physics system we can all give it that. Outside of that what did it have that other open world games haven't been doing for eons at that point? Are we still acting like no markers on map is revolutionary when rockstar has always done that for hidden content? Hell if exploration with limited map help is an innovation then Kingdom Come Deliverance shits all over BoTW in that regard but I don't see people heralding it as some revolutionary game.

I tip the cap to the physics system, but outside of that there was nothing fresh or new about BoTW that other open world games didn't also achieve. In fact outside of the physics system it's basically a ubisoft open world with the map icons turned off. It even has Ubisoft towers lol.

Tears mops the floor with BoTW and in reality is the game BoTW should have been. It's the same formula but not so fucking obvious about it to the point of copy pasting the same damn puzzles 50 feet apart from each other.

[Darththeo]

I never said they make or break the game, only that they were a substantial part of them.



Sounds like you're really just downplaying how much they are a part of the games. Ocarina of Time, one of the 3D games you're saying had less dungeon content, had 11 dungeons and a very large amount of the rest of the content in that game is figuring out how to get into those dungeons or going through quests and puzzles, etc... to do what you know you need to do to get there. I'm not saying the majority of time is spent literally inside a dungeon, but that large portions of the game revolve around them.

I didn't say "less dungeon content" I said "Most content isn't dungeon related." And I stated this is especially true of the 3D games. By changing it to "less content" you are completely altering what my point was.

Getting into the dungeon and finding the dungeon as "Dungeon Content" is a bit disingenuous to me. Because that is can be debated on what would count, after all, Breath of the Wild has questlines to get into Dungeons or the need to obtain items to get into dungeons, but people rarely count that as "Dungeon" content for Breath of the Wild as they only talk about the 4 Divine beasts and Hyrule Castle, but the quests prior, nah that isn't dungeon content.

So, in reality, I am not "downplaying" anything, you are overplaying it to make the argument.

[Katchii]

I didn't say "less dungeon content" I said "Most content isn't dungeon related." And I stated this is especially true of the 3D games. By changing it to "less content" you are completely altering what my point was.

That's how I interpreted it, wasn't trying to change your intention. Sorry.

Getting into the dungeon and finding the dungeon as "Dungeon Content" is a bit disingenuous to me. Because that is can be debated on what would count, after all, Breath of the Wild has questlines to get into Dungeons or the need to obtain items to get into dungeons, but people rarely count that as "Dungeon" content for Breath of the Wild as they only talk about the 4 Divine beasts and Hyrule Castle, but the quests prior, nah that isn't dungeon content.

So, in reality, I am not "downplaying" anything, you are overplaying it to make the argument.

I've never said "dungeon content," but that dungeons are a large part of the game. Now you're changing what I'm saying.

What you're doing with your argument feels similar to someone who would argue that (in WoW) the Lich King wasn't a large part of the Wrath of the Lich King expansions because he is only 1 boss fight, and you only see him here and there throughout the expansion experience. Yes, that's a made up argument, but it's to convey how I see yours.

[Darththeo]

What you're doing with your argument feels similar to someone who would argue that (in WoW) the Lich King wasn't a large part of the Wrath of the Lich King expansions because he is only 1 boss fight, and you only see him here and there throughout the expansion experience. Yes, that's a made up argument, but it's to convey how I see yours.

Actually, it isn't. That is again you twisting what I said which is ironic that you twisted what I said, stated I twisted what you said only to twist my point again. You are arguing against my stance that dungeons aren't the majority of content in a Zelda game, meaning when you bring up finding the dungeon and getting into it, you are implying that is dungeon content whether that was your intent or not.

Given that I stated in this topic that Dungeon fall under another aspect of the game ... being the puzzle solving and exploration aspects of the game, I have to assume your action is intentional at this point.

And your analogy fails because the argument is about content, and your example is about story. If you want to bring up the story of the Zelda games, the dungeons rarely matter to the overall plot beyond Link needs to go there to move forward in the story and most of the story takes place outside of the dungeons. If someone said that the Lich King was involved in the minority of content for Wrath, that depends where you consider him being involved. Are you counting directly involved or involved at all?

So, your analogy fails, but even twisting my argument to make it not fail, the result would be dungeons would even less important to Zelda than I actually believe.