The longevity of WoW going forward.

[trimble]

I don't care what the specific gear is named or looks like. I only care that people can gear up doing the content they enjoy.

Right and its been explained at length why it can't keep going up without breaking the rest of the game.

[NineSpine]

Right and its been explained at length why it can't keep going up without breaking the rest of the game.

Those explanations have never been remotely sufficient. They are just elaborate whines.

[trimble]

Those explanations have never been remotely sufficient. They are just elaborate whines.

You disagreeing that wow has a rather clearly planned out difficulty curve isn't the same as them not being sufficicent as you put it.

[NineSpine]

You disagreeing that wow has a rather clearly planned out difficulty curve isn't the same as them not being sufficicent as you put it.

Players tend to stick to content in the difficulty range they like. People don't climb through all of the difficulty tiers. It's a non-issue. Mythic raiders don't start every patch out by mastering LFR for a few weeks first.

[trimble]

Players tend to stick to content in the difficulty range they like. People don't climb through all of the difficulty tiers. It's a non-issue. Mythic raiders don't start every patch out by mastering LFR for a few weeks first.

No one said anything about mythic raiders. Free gear from world content is pressing into heroic raids

There is a lot to wow not just the easiest and the hardest.. I think you somehow lost that.

[NineSpine]

No one said anything about mythic raiders. Free gear from world content is pressing into heroic raids

I can log into WoW right now, spend real money on some wow tokens, and then buy a mythic run of the newest raid tonight without knowing a single mechanic in it. Spare me the concerns about "free" gear for actually doing content.

There is a lot to wow not just the easiest and the hardest.. I think you somehow lost that.

Heroic raiders don't spend a few weeks mastering LFR.
Normal raiders don't spend a few weeks mastering LFR.
M+ players don't spend a few weeks stomping heroic, then a few weeks stomping mythic0, and THEN finally get into M+.

WoW does not have this long, elaborate difficulty curve that everyone slowly climbs in every patch. Players quickly and definitively get to the difficulty tiers they enjoy playing and that is where they play. This is not debatable.

[trimble]

I can log into WoW right now, spend real money on some wow tokens, and then buy a mythic run of the newest raid tonight without knowing a single mechanic in it. Spare me the concerns about "free" gear for actually doing content.



Heroic raiders don't spend a few weeks mastering LFR.
Normal raiders don't spend a few weeks mastering LFR.
M+ players don't spend a few weeks stomping heroic, then a few weeks stomping mythic0, and THEN finally get into M+.

WoW does not have this long, elaborate difficulty curve that everyone slowly climbs in every patch. Players quickly and definitively get to the difficulty tiers they enjoy playing and that is where they play. This is not debatable.

Again you can't see the trees for the forest. I agree on lfr as that is a loot mode that shouldn't of been made but thats another topic.

There are players who do heroics then go into mythic 0 then slowly grind up. I remember wod I recall out of sheer curosity going into heroics to see the players there they do exist. Your perspective is ironically that of a seasoned mythic CE player who sees all content below his own as free and not mattering. The issue is you are boldy stating that world content should have... I guess mythic raid rewards? It already has heroic so it feels like that is your point.

I respectfully disagree. Just because their content seems trivial to you doesn't mean you should be able to invalidate all of it.

[Lolites]

WoW does not have this long, elaborate difficulty curve that everyone slowly climbs in every patch. Players quickly and definitively get to the difficulty tiers they enjoy playing and that is where they play. This is not debatable.

true, its not debatable, you are simply wrong

very few people jump straight to HC raid or higher M+, most people start lower and work their way there, many casuals definitely do normal raid for few weeks before going for heoric...

if you dont, great, play at what level you want, but stop pretending everybody just jumps into higher difficulty, thats either dishonest or ignorant

[NineSpine]

Again you can't see the trees for the forest. I agree on lfr as that is a loot mode that shouldn't of been made but thats another topic.

There are players who do heroics then go into mythic 0 then slowly grind up. I remember wod I recall out of sheer curosity going into heroics to see the players there they do exist. Your perspective is ironically that of a seasoned mythic CE player who sees all content below his own as free and not mattering. The issue is you are boldy stating that world content should have... I guess mythic raid rewards? It already has heroic so it feels like that is your point.

I respectfully disagree. Just because their content seems trivial to you doesn't mean you should be able to invalidate all of it.

I don't know why you keep talking about mythic raid rewards and world content. This is what I said: All types of endgame content should allow you to keep gearing up.

You are the one fixated on comparing mythic and world content. I don't care if someone likes heroic dungeons, random BGs, world content, or whatever. Whatever the type of endgame content they enjoy, they should continually get rewarded for it with upgrades. Nothing gets "invalidated" by this. Right now, my wife has a higher gear level in Destiny 2 than I do, even though I am a raider and she's super casual. Are my feelings supposed to be hurt? Am I supposed to feel emasculated? I don't care. What the hell does her gear level have to do with me???

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true, its not debatable, you are simply wrong

very few people jump straight to HC raid or higher M+, most people start lower and work their way there, many casuals definitely do normal raid for few weeks before going for heoric...

if you dont, great, play at what level you want, but stop pretending everybody just jumps into higher difficulty, thats either dishonest or ignorant

But I thought wow has this long and elaborate difficulty curve that must be attacked in a straight, linear fashion, or else the WHOLE SYSTEM BREAKS DOWN!?!?!?! How are these people starting in normal without fully mastering LFR first???

You proved my point.

[trimble]

I don't know why you keep talking about mythic raid rewards and world content. This is what I said: All types of endgame content should allow you to keep gearing up.

You are the one fixated on comparing mythic and world content. I don't care if someone likes heroic dungeons, random BGs, world content, or whatever. Whatever the type of endgame content they enjoy, they should continually get rewarded for it with upgrades. Nothing gets "invalidated" by this. Right now, my wife has a higher gear level in Destiny 2 than I do, even though I am a raider and she's super casual. Are my feelings supposed to be hurt? Am I supposed to feel emasculated? I don't care. What the hell does her gear level have to do with me???

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But I thought wow has this long and elaborate difficulty curve that must be attacked in a straight, linear fashion, or else the WHOLE SYSTEM BREAKS DOWN!?!?!?! How are these people starting in normal without fully mastering LFR first???

You proved my point.

I am comparing it to mythic raids because it is already on par with heroic raiding in terms of ilv... things have gotten to absurd levels already and you are pressing for more. You can gear up from any content of similar difficulty. If you came in and asked for something reasonable like mage towers rewarding mythic raid ilv I think most people would agree with you or willing to hear you out.

Instead you are arguing that world content should be a short cut to mythic raid ilv and that everyone who enjoys heroic,mythic 0 , mythic1-16, normal raid, heroic raid, crafting, and pvp to get fucked.

People don't think thats acceptable. Not only would you invalidate all of that contents gearing. You would shove utterly lost players into higher difficulties as they naturally try to find rewards after capping out when player skill wise they should of been starting normal raiding or a mythic +5.

What you want is extremely harmful to a game that offers mutliple difficulties and is one of the most harmful things you could do to the game. This isn't final fantasty with 2 difficulty modes.

[Shadowferal]

I never bothered with raids, almost no pvp for me, and I only did dungeons when I could solo them. But I knew what I was getting into...so I didn't care about getting some cutsey gear...

[Lolites]

But I thought wow has this long and elaborate difficulty curve that must be attacked in a straight, linear fashion, or else the WHOLE SYSTEM BREAKS DOWN!?!?!?! How are these people starting in normal without fully mastering LFR first???

You proved my point.

seems more like you are INCREDIBLY terrible at formulating your point... bcs nowhere did i say everybody goes all the way on that curve...
neither did you, what i quoted you saying was there is no curve and people just play the dificulty they want, which is bullshit... if that wasnt your point then you just need to learn how to communicate properly, bcs thats what you said...

and why yes, "mythic raiders" (i assume you mean those who get fully decked in mythic gear before next season starts) dont run all difficulties, there is plenty of guilds who go normal-hc-mythic, though those tends to be guilds that dont usualy fully clear mythic, but that doesnt mean they dont exist... you can check raider.io or similar sites if you want to see it for yourself...

so yeah, the curve definitely is there and there are people who go at least most of it, not jump to whatever difficulty they like and stick in it, as you said...

[NineSpine]

I am comparing it to mythic raids because it is already on par with heroic raiding in terms of ilv... things have gotten to absurd levels already and you are pressing for more. You can gear up from any content of similar difficulty. If you came in and asked for something reasonable like mage towers rewarding mythic raid ilv I think most people would agree with you or willing to hear you out.

Instead you are arguing that world content should be a short cut to mythic raid ilv and that everyone who enjoys heroic,mythic 0 , mythic1-16, normal raid, heroic raid, crafting, and pvp to get fucked.

But all of them can gear up with the content they enjoy too.

People don't think thats acceptable. Not only would you invalidate all of that contents gearing. You would shove utterly lost players into higher difficulties as they naturally try to find rewards after capping out when player skill wise they should of been starting normal raiding or a mythic +5.

What you want is extremely harmful to a game that offers mutliple difficulties and is one of the most harmful things you could do to the game. This isn't final fantasty with 2 difficulty modes.

It doesn't invalidate you for someone you don't play with, who doesn't want to play with you, to go have fun doing something else. This is an absolutely phony concern. If someone doesn't like raiding, the idea that they are going to wander into a mythic raid and the whole world is going to end is just stupid on its face. THe absolute worst-case scenario is someone goes in and says "Oh wow this is hard, I should do an easier difficulty first" and then they go do that. What a catastrophe. Total meltdown. The earth is on fire. Help us all.

Honestly, this whole conversation is a joke when I can literally real-money buy my way into mythic gear whenever I want.

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seems more like you are INCREDIBLY terrible at formulating your point... bcs nowhere did i say everybody goes all the way on that curve...
neither did you, what i quoted you saying was there is no curve and people just play the dificulty they want, which is bullshit... if that wasnt your point then you just need to learn how to communicate properly, bcs thats what you said...

and why yes, "mythic raiders" (i assume you mean those who get fully decked in mythic gear before next season starts) dont run all difficulties, there is plenty of guilds who go normal-hc-mythic, though those tends to be guilds that dont usualy fully clear mythic, but that doesnt mean they dont exist... you can check raider.io or similar sites if you want to see it for yourself...

so yeah, the curve definitely is there and there are people who go at least most of it, not jump to whatever difficulty they like and stick in it, as you said...

It helps if you read what I say:

"WoW does not have this long, elaborate difficulty curve that everyone slowly climbs in every patch. Players quickly and definitively get to the difficulty tiers they enjoy playing and that is where they play."

Is that true or false? Because you just told me that everything I said is right, but you did it while disagreeing with me somehow.

[bloodykiller86]

I don't know why you keep talking about mythic raid rewards and world content. This is what I said: All types of endgame content should allow you to keep gearing up.

You are the one fixated on comparing mythic and world content. I don't care if someone likes heroic dungeons, random BGs, world content, or whatever. Whatever the type of endgame content they enjoy, they should continually get rewarded for it with upgrades. Nothing gets "invalidated" by this. Right now, my wife has a higher gear level in Destiny 2 than I do, even though I am a raider and she's super casual. Are my feelings supposed to be hurt? Am I supposed to feel emasculated? I don't care. What the hell does her gear level have to do with me???

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But I thought wow has this long and elaborate difficulty curve that must be attacked in a straight, linear fashion, or else the WHOLE SYSTEM BREAKS DOWN!?!?!?! How are these people starting in normal without fully mastering LFR first???

You proved my point.

nah that just doesnt make any sense in WoW sorry. Gear plays to much of a role. If you're able to eventually get m raid level rewards from doing world content for forever it makes doing m raiding almost pointless besides for the exp. theres a reason m+ rewards also dont scale up that high except from the vault. Im fine with the current system, they can level gear up pretty high and start doing M10-15 keys easily without any sweat. theres no reason to put high ilvl gear in open world content that is stupid simple UNLESS they started adding harder content to the open world that isnt just 5 mins of wacking it

[NineSpine]

nah that just doesnt make any sense in WoW sorry. Gear plays to much of a role. If you're able to eventually get m raid level rewards from doing world content for forever it makes doing m raiding almost pointless besides for the exp. theres a reason m+ rewards also dont scale up that high except from the vault. Im fine with the current system, they can level gear up pretty high and start doing M10-15 keys easily without any sweat. theres no reason to put high ilvl gear in open world content that is stupid simple UNLESS they started adding harder content to the open world that isnt just 5 mins of wacking it

If people say "Thank god I don't have to raid anymore because I can get gear elsewhere" then raiding isn't fun and has a design problem.

[bloodykiller86]

If people say "Thank god I don't have to raid anymore because I can get gear elsewhere" then raiding isn't fun and has a design problem.

not necessarily lol once people get all the gear they want they feel like they have beat the game for now and take a break. not uncommon. not everyone plays solely for the raiding exp, some play for performance and if theyve reached the peak performance theyre capable of then theres nothing more to do for them

[NineSpine]

not necessarily lol once people get all the gear they want they feel like they have beat the game for now and take a break. not uncommon. not everyone plays solely for the raiding exp, some play for performance and if theyve reached the peak performance theyre capable of then theres nothing more to do for them

So my point stands: If people are happy they don't need to do something because they can gear up elsewhere, that means the game is better for them, not worse.

[bloodykiller86]

So my point stands: If people are happy they don't need to do something because they can gear up elsewhere, that means the game is better for them, not worse.

remove the "they can gear up elsewhere part" and yes lol because you're trying to imply that they should be able to gear up as high as mythic raiders in stuff like world content. If theyre content with gearing UP TO the point of content theyre capable of doing, then there is no need to go higher or play more after they reach the limits of that bar.

[NineSpine]

remove the "they can gear up elsewhere part" and yes lol because you're trying to imply that they should be able to gear up as high as mythic raiders in stuff like world content. If theyre content with gearing UP TO the point of content theyre capable of doing, then there is no need to go higher or play more after they reach the limits of that bar.

So what do we gain by making them raid if they hate it so much that they'd rather do world content?

[baskev]

Maybe it would be a high cost. But I think about all the little things an updated engine might accomplish as I've said before in some of my responses. Updated physics, dynamic gameplay, improved mob UI. These are just a few of the things I had in mind when I made this post but somehow the "looks" parts got highlighted above those points.

many of the things you name, call for a complete overhall of the currect game paly engine.

The looks parts got highlighted because you talked mostly/only about that.

I agree a new updated stuff should help. But if you play wow you would see they are doing that ( new systems like dragonflying, old/new talent tree's, update graphics etc)