[Spoilers] Under The Fat Goose Inn (D4 general talk)

[Kumorii]

Figured we could have thread for more casual conversations about our adventures in the game.
And what's a better place than a cozy inn, right?
Added a spoiler tag if people want to comment on story stuff.

Talk about anything. Show off your character, talk about some wacky build. Brag about the latest giga drop.

I'm really enjoying the game so far. Running a fire dot build I've made up on the fly. Instead of fireball as enchantment I have fire wall. If I get good procs the entire screen fills up. Did couple it with meteor enchantment for even more fire. Sometimes it's covering the entire screen. Pretty fun tbh.
Shame the game clearly wants me to play frost because that's all the drops I get. No extra hydra legendary in sight.

Still no sight of the elusive butcher.
Getting lots of triple treasure goblins in cellars tho.

After I finish the story and play around in end-game I'll try out the druid and its class mechanic.

[Daedius]

Still haven't delved much into the EA, work (12 hour shifts) and all... only a meagre level 16 Druid atm. But it's my final day of work today, taken 4 days off... got 12 days to binge the game (work 4 days on 4 days off pattern) this weekend onwards! \●/

Even got it running on my SteamDeck to play it while in bed if I so choose. Runs incredibly well on med-high settings with a consistent locked 60fps, playing Melee with a controller feels good.

[Fencers]

I have greatly enjoyed what I have played. I find Diablo 4 to be a very engrossing game.

The combination of music, atmosphere, and aesthetics really draws me in as few other games have done. There is a romantic quality to the game. This is some top-notch artistry.

I upgraded my home office to be easier to play games in last November. New monitors, desk, etc. I also got some nice RGB lighting that is reactive to my game screen. With a pair of surround sound headphones and lighting, this game is very immersive.

This has to be some of the best sound design I have ever heard in video games. If not the best sound design.

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I said in the beta the lamest thing about D4 to me was that bosses are reused in dungeons.

I was not expecting for world bosses to also get reused. Super lame. They ate mega easy at WT2 ss well.

Wish Blizz had considered the feedback that was given on the egregious boss (&WB) reuse.

That's my biggest gripe with it all.

I like a huge variety of monsters to fight. I think all adversies should represent a mechanical puzzle or expression. GW1 stands alone.

[Tojara]

Story is actually pretty good. Lots of call backs to D1-D3, with many from D2.

I honestly though D3 Act 1 was really good, but it fell off the rails after that. D4 had a really good start (end of Act 1) and really kicks it up in the final three acts. Pretty good voice work, sound quality, music and overall dialogue.

[Kumorii]

For story; this is the strongest it has ever been when it comes to Diablo tbh. Then again it has never been story driven at all so I guess the bar is low, enjoying what I've seen so far.

Bit miffed that I managed to accidentally skip a cutscene that apparently had a "big" moment in it judging by the talk afterwards, and I can't find it on youtube yet... D:

[Fencers]

Barbarian is kinda dope once you get out of the Fractured Peaks nonsense.

I am playing Nevro with my kiddo and husband. I'm like 50 something.

But playing a solo barbarian when only have a few mins. Level 30 something. Not too bad. Good mechanics. This is the most complex class in the game, honestly. In some ways it is over-designed relative to the other classes.

Druid is not good design. It can not be fixed. I know exactly how this made it into the game through iteration meetings; the developers only played their own games in depth.

All the system concepts the devs enjoyed from class resource to acquisition make up every design element of the Druid.

That would be fine if the Druid class in D4 was in a relativistic or deterministic progress system. Such as Path of Exile or Last Epoch. Or GW1 in a certain sense.

Rock & Roll Racing aside, I am unaware of a single Blizzard game that is not limited linear. D4 is not an exception. This Druid design is emblamic of all the issues that design model brings in class based play spaces.

Fundementally flawed game design.

[tikcol]

I'm fighting hard to get my name carved on Lilith's tities

[Fencers]

I'm fighting hard to get my name carved on Lilith's tities

Heh, I am regretting not rolling HC because I thought it might be too difficult to do in the time span given. I underestimated how fast leveling is and how easy the game is in later regions up to level 50.

I probably could have done it. Oh well, I'll just play HC in ladder.

[StillMcfuu]

Barbarian is kinda dope once you get out of the Fractured Peaks nonsense.

I am playing Nevro with my kiddo and husband. I'm like 50 something.

But playing a solo barbarian when only have a few mins. Level 30 something. Not too bad. Good mechanics. This is the most complex class in the game, honestly. In some ways it is over-designed relative to the other classes.

Druid is not good design. It can not be fixed. I know exactly how this made it into the game through iteration meetings; the developers only played their own games in depth.

All the system concepts the devs enjoyed from class resource to acquisition make up every design element of the Druid.

That would be fine if the Druid class in D4 was in a relativistic or deterministic progress system. Such as Path of Exile or Last Epoch. Or GW1 in a certain sense.

Rock & Roll Racing aside, I am unaware of a single Blizzard game that is not limited linear. D4 is not an exception. This Druid design is emblamic of all the issues that design model brings in class based play spaces.

Fundementally flawed game design.

I think I know what you are saying, but is your complaint about Druid that they are most effective when you mix casting skills with melee skills?

I'm a bigger fan of Last Epoch with Druid specializing into specific branches (bear, casting, so on) but the D4 twist is interesting. I think it's biggest issue is it's all tied to items and without them, these builds just don't work outside of leveling (barely within leveling too sometimes).

Ps on the Butcher topic. Saw him twice last night, killed him both times although the first go around I clicked a conduit pylon and he came bursting through the door probably wishing he had better timing. Second time we just kicked his ass. I was able to kite him indefinitely while others took him down.

[Fencers]

I think I know what you are saying, but is your complaint about Druid that they are most effective when you mix casting skills with melee skills?

I have no opinion on Druid's effectiveness. I think that is irrelevant and transitory for the most part. A patch could change any class for the better or worse in terms of game effectiveness and still a class may be poorly designed.

I am talking about game design purely here regarding Druid. The class has a broad design scope; transformation, summons, spellcasting, melee, range, and spirit offerings. Currently, that exists within a narrow systems environment.

"Bad" game design, so to speak, contradicts itself. Say, for example, you design a game where the goal was to place a round ball into a round hoop to move to the next level. Then on one level, there are no round hoops only triangular ones the ball can not fit through.

All gameplay is a metaphor for something. "Good" design demonstrates the possibility of a goal(s) and allows you the player to execute these things with the interaction points of the game. If you give the player a goal or possibility but the method(s) to meet those things are poor or impossible, the design is faulty. Or "bad", so to speak.

That's the problem with Druid in D4. The legendary aspect system reinforces a narrow play system. If you are playing a "werebear" in D4, for example, the methodology to do this is both linear and vertical. You never truly benefit from anything that isn't expressly "werebear". Or do so in a way that purposefully has a diminishing return within a single vertical, because the game systems want you to invest across multiple systems.

The developers had a distinct idea of how a werebear druid should play. So you are really only playing their prescriptive version(s) of a "werebear".


Whereas in LE, Druid's transformative play is heavily dictated by the deterministic systems of the game. The Druid in D2, the class had a lot of inherent systems that were not bound by systems outside itself.

Blizzard can not fix this in D4. They are never gonna walk back "Vulnerable" or "Overpower" for all classes. But those things would have to not exist or be altered for this incarnation of Druid to work as a point of design.

The class design of D3 was also very poor, but that game had more simple mechanisms. Similar to D2. But they took the singular personal resource and class to gear definition from D3 and over-designed many of these elements in D4.

They should not have done this- and I would put $1000 on the line it is because the core game designers only robustly played their own games. That is how you end up with prescriptive play interactions in any game. That is not necessarily bad either- that's how Unreal Tournament 2k4 was created.

[Kumorii]

Barb is my next character. Thought the barb would be the most complex one later on, glad to hear that is the case.

Heh, I am regretting not rolling HC because I thought it might be too difficult to do in the time span given. I underestimated how fast leveling is and how easy the game is in later regions up to level 50.

I probably could have done it. Oh well, I'll just play HC in ladder.

You have to reach lvl 100 in HC... considering how experience drops off quite a lot after 50 I don't think any solo person will get it. Groups are too effective for that to be the case

[Fencers]

Barb is my next character. Thought the barb would be the most complex one later on, glad to hear that is the case.



You have to reach lvl 100 in HC... considering how experience drops off quite a lot after 50 I don't think any solo person will get it. Groups are too effective for that to be the case

I have a group. All my friends and family that play games, we all share a discord and play multiple games together. I think 12 of us are playing D4 right now.

[Kumorii]

I have a group. All my friends and family that play games, we all share a discord and play multiple games together. I think 12 of us are playing D4 right now.

Then all that's left is starting the 24/7 grind :P

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Fuck me, but when Butcher comes the first few steps you hear him coming from outside your view gives me chills. Hate it but love it at the same time.
At least I killed him this time... in tier 3 nightmare nonetheless.

[Fencers]

They gotta win some sort of formal award for the sound design in this game. I have never heard anything that sounds this fucking good. Astonishing. This is the best single work, the sound design of D4, Blizzard has ever created artistically.

Gotta have some recognition from outside the industry. Just extraordinary work.

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Rogue and Sroc are so strong relative to other classes. I spent a couple of hours on Rogue and flew by the levels that took other classes maybe an hour or so longer to reach.

The mobility of Rogue & Sorc with the powerful burst is absurd. I feel like I am walking in mud on my other characters by contrast.

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The biggest barrier to Barbarian is easily the expense of the class. The aspects are not hard to get or manage. But you need to move legs to all your gear constantly.

Even a +10 damage increase or armor (especially) matter a lot to the Barbarian. All of which costs tons of gold.

If I didn't have a couple of higher level characters to bank roll the Barbarian with gems, salvage, Obols and gold- Barbarian would be much more painful to play.

The barrier for Barbs is wealth. Otherwise, they can do fairly well. Not Sorc/Rogues good, but none are.

Capstone dungeons are kind of a joke.

[Kumorii]

Capstone is mostly just a gear check so people don't venture into higher tiers and then complain it's not tuned properly.

Tried the 2nd one to unlock tier 4 at lvl 58... Could probably do it, but some abilities one-shot me and didn't feel like spending 1 hour on the boss learning on how to do a perfect run.

Starting to get some uniques, but mostly just he same leg and 2h staff.

[Fullmetal89]

So I just finished the story on my Barbarian last night and it was definitely a step up from Diablo 3. However, I have a few questions regarding some of the deaths in the game. Primarily Rathma, Lilith and Inarius.
Starting with Rathma, we are told through Elias questline that he found a way to immortality by severing a piece of himself in Rathma's temple. Rathma being a master of necromancy and a nephalem(?) dying to fulfil some prophecy seems strange. Either he died because he was so obsessed with the prophecy that he wanted to carry it out as accurately as possible or he faked his death to spark the conflict and fuel Lilith's hatred and we will see him in the future.
Second, Innarius is killed by Lilith in a cutscene, I have very mixed feelings about how they handled Inarius entire story but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the one sided portrayal of angels was intentional. Same question as with Rathma is Innarius actually dead, can angels even die? Since the primes and lessers seem to always coalesce back in hell, I presumed the same happens to angels but that would make Innarius character even dumber since that would mean he would go back to the heavens when he died in Sanctuary, unless his connection was cut somehow but they had a visual queue for this for Malthael and Tyrael in D3.
Finally, Lilith the game tells you she died along with Innarius and we see her turn to ash but just a few minutes earlier we see Astaroth and we know Mephisto has died multiple times and always comes back. What would make Lilith different in this regard?

One final note, I think Rathma's prophecy was about the reunification of the evils into Tathamet the seven headed dragon(serpent). This is something Diablo tried to accomplish in D3 but ultimately failed and I think this may have been Lilith's true goal.

[Kumorii]

Anyone noticed lots of lag today? been flawless up until today.

Second, Innarius is killed by Lilith in a cutscene, I have very mixed feelings about how they handled Inarius entire story but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the one sided portrayal of angels was intentional. Same question as with Rathma is Innarius actually dead, can angels even die? Since the primes and lessers seem to always coalesce back in hell, I presumed the same happens to angels but that would make Innarius character even dumber since that would mean he would go back to the heavens when he died in Sanctuary, unless his connection was cut somehow but they had a visual queue for this for Malthael and Tyrael in D3.
Finally, Lilith the game tells you she died along with Innarius and we see her turn to ash but just a few minutes earlier we see Astaroth and we know Mephisto has died multiple times and always comes back. What would make Lilith different in this regard?

No the best lore buy, but I've watched and read some in preparation.
Angels are like demons in the sense they can't be destroyed. An angel will reform...however, angels will get a new personality. So technically they can die if we speak about the individual and not the essence. Which is probably why Inarius can't just die and then reform.

Lilith is just like any other demon, she will reform over time. But for now she is gone, we don't really know how long it takes for an evil being to reform but probably a long time. Diablo is a special case because of catalysts and soulstones helping him reform.
Diablo 3 is 20 years after Diablo 2 and Diablo 4 is 50 years after Diablo 3... Mephisto has been reforming over 70 years and he's still weak and could only appear as a wolf. Though he was trapped in the black soulstone so I guess it's been only 50 years really.

Either way, Lilith will be gone unless someone help her out in some way, not that I know how.

[Fullmetal89]

Anyone noticed lots of lag today? been flawless up until today.



No the best lore buy, but I've watched and read some in preparation.
Angels are like demons in the sense they can't be destroyed. An angel will reform...however, angels will get a new personality. So technically they can die if we speak about the individual and not the essence. Which is probably why Inarius can't just die and then reform.

Lilith is just like any other demon, she will reform over time. But for now she is gone, we don't really know how long it takes for an evil being to reform but probably a long time. Diablo is a special case because of catalysts and soulstones helping him reform.
Diablo 3 is 20 years after Diablo 2 and Diablo 4 is 50 years after Diablo 3... Mephisto has been reforming over 70 years and he's still weak and could only appear as a wolf. Though he was trapped in the black soulstone so I guess it's been only 50 years really.

Either way, Lilith will be gone unless someone help her out in some way, not that I know how.

Thanks for the reply. I didn't know about the angels losing their personality that's interesting. I forgot about how long it took for the evils to return. As for Lilith, I just finished the short questline in Hawezar about Symon the monk from the first cinematic that dies summoning Lilith. The whole thing seems to take place after you kill Elias and Lilith and you fight an Echo of Lilith in the chamber she was summoned in and it mostly throws out lines from previous cinematics but she says at one point "I can't be killed by the likes of you" or something along those lines. Which I don't remember her saying that specifically about the PC. She says something similar about Astaroth in the Donan cinematic. So anyway, maybe she will play a role against Mephisto in the likely expansion since it's pretty obvious he is going to be the next big bad. I still think they handled Inarius pretty poorly, he seemed extremely one note and we barely get to see him throughout the game. I was also hoping to get some info about what happened to the Nephalem from D3 since you practically become a demi-god by the end of RoS. I know you can meet Lyndon (Rogue companion) in Backwater but he doesn't say anything about his time with the Nephalem.

Anyway, the game certainly had a more interesting story than D3 and I enjoyed the more cult and gritty feel of it over how crazy D3 got.

[Engal]

Wondering why there is a gate to hell under Caldeum. I'm beginning to think that every city or palace in a desert house a gateway to hell underneath... It's becoming a trend since D2 xD

I mean.. What about the City of Ureh? it was right in the area and it is not even mentionned... If would have made more sense... :/

[Biomega]

I still think they handled Inarius pretty poorly, he seemed extremely one note and we barely get to see him throughout the game.

I think they did that reasonably well, actually. The whole POINT of his story is that he basically went his own special kind of mad. He was a deviant to begin with, and after being imprisoned and tortured in hell for millennia, he really doesn't have perspective anymore. He is singularly obsessed with something he can never get: returning to heaven and erasing his mistakes. To that end, he casts himself in the role of the righteous, and the way he effectively deceives the Church of the Light is just a result of him deceiving himself. As Lilith points out in the end, Heaven has already cast its judgement, and it's silence. They won't talk to him, acknowledge him, do anything - a form of shunning actually practiced in some IRL religions. That's why Inarius' fantasy just runs rampant - no one higher up objects. He casts himself as the prophesied savior because that's the way he can see himself redeemed. But that's a delusion, of course. I thought they did a good job getting that across, without making him an outright evil character. He's not. He's just so completely and utterly broken, but he's still an angel and so the humans who follow him can't see any of it. Blinded by the light.

I was also hoping to get some info about what happened to the Nephalem from D3 since you practically become a demi-god by the end of RoS.

My guess is that this was too much of a headache to puzzle out story-wise and so they just sidestepped it. If it's ever referenced I expect it'll be something along the lines of "they're no longer interested in the affairs of lower beings so they removed themselves" or whatever.

If anyone should have commented, it'd have had to be Lorath. HE WAS THERE. He stood beside Tyrael and the Nephalem.

Which reminds me... no mention of Tyrael, either. Not that I've found. Is there some snippet somewhere?