[Hardcore Servers] Here's how to do hardcore correctly and how to do it bad

[Phuongvi]

At this point they should sell servers license for whoever want to start and manage their own server and see how it goes

Whoever get more that 20 players online at the same time wins

[Ielenia]

An appeal system against bugs and griefing is very much needed.

I suppose you could argue for an appeal system for deaths caused by bugs in the game, but griefing? Absolutely not. You basically sign up to be the potential target of griefing when you join in PvP servers.

That's like saying you want to go out into the rain and not get wet. If you go out in the raid, you most likely will get wet.

[Ludek]

I suppose you could argue for an appeal system for deaths caused by bugs in the game, but griefing? Absolutely not. You basically sign up to be the potential target of griefing when you join in PvP servers.

That's like saying you want to go out into the rain and not get wet. If you go out in the raid, you most likely will get wet.

But the whole point of griefing is being killed by someone when you are on PVE server.

It can be either by someone dragging big elite dino from Ungoro and letting him lose on some lower level area, or by tricking someone to get flagged and then killing him.

Sure, we can agree that dying from getting PVP flagged in most cases is due to "grieffed" person not being careful enough, but in terms of just getting high level mobs on someone? What about it? (of course on dedicated HC servers it wouldnt be that popular because the grieffer risks his own char)

[The Stormbringer]

I suppose you could argue for an appeal system for deaths caused by bugs in the game, but griefing? Absolutely not. You basically sign up to be the potential target of griefing when you join in PvP servers.

That's like saying you want to go out into the rain and not get wet. If you go out in the raid, you most likely will get wet.

What about the people getting griefed on PVE Servers? There are multiple known methods for it. Kiting a high level mob to another zone where someone lower level is, then either letting the AoE attack the mob uses kill the lower level player, or using some weird exploit to drop aggro and have the mob attack the lowbie instead. That sort of shit is griefing, and needs to be fixed. People on PVE Servers did not sign-up to get murdered by a level 40+ Ogre Mage while leveling in Westfall.

[Revamp Man]

Don't need HC Servers, people are already playing it. Quite an odd argument to make. Would be within reason of the game mechanics and the world, while still being hardcore.

the people have made a playstyle
the proposed change would unnecessarily change the playstyle and enforce some restrictions that take away from it

the big difference is HC servers were made BECAUSE players do it
this change is unnecessary because NOBODY does it

[Ielenia]

But the whole point of griefing is being killed by someone when you are on PVE server.

It can be either by someone dragging big elite dino from Ungoro and letting him lose on some lower level area, or by tricking someone to get flagged and then killing him.

Sure, we can agree that dying from getting PVP flagged in most cases is due to "grieffed" person not being careful enough, but in terms of just getting high level mobs on someone? What about it? (of course on dedicated HC servers it wouldnt be that popular because the grieffer risks his own char)

What about the people getting griefed on PVE Servers? There are multiple known methods for it. Kiting a high level mob to another zone where someone lower level is, then either letting the AoE attack the mob uses kill the lower level player, or using some weird exploit to drop aggro and have the mob attack the lowbie instead. That sort of shit is griefing, and needs to be fixed. People on PVE Servers did not sign-up to get murdered by a level 40+ Ogre Mage while leveling in Westfall.

I admit it sucks, but unfortunately it's still something you technically sign up to: people are a-holes, and there will be those that will be there to try to screw you. Also, I'm fairly sure all mobs have a maximum leash range, so those examples would be caused by bugs, no?

[munkeyinorbit]

How is it counterproductive to prevent loss of days of gameplay due to bugs or griefing?

The bugs in the game are a part of the game. Deal with it. Server instability is a part of life. Deal with it. "Griefing" is a risky proposition itself. A lot of what people think griefing is isn't what blizzard thinks it is. Blizzards definition of griefing is punishable by action on the offending party's account. If you believe you have been a victim then report away but be prepared to be disappointed.

[The Stormbringer]

I admit it sucks, but unfortunately it's still something you technically sign up to: people are a-holes, and there will be those that will be there to try to screw you. Also, I'm fairly sure all mobs have a maximum leash range, so those examples would be caused by bugs, no?

Maximum leash range didn't exist in Classic, no. You could kite shit from the Blasted Lands all the way to Stormwind without issue. I'm pretty sure the only limitation, if you can call it that, was the two continents. Leash range isn't a bug, but it is exploitative gameplay taking advantage of something in an unexpected way. Thus why I think changes should be made, such as adding a leash.

[Askyl]

the people have made a playstyle
the proposed change would unnecessarily change the playstyle and enforce some restrictions that take away from it

the big difference is HC servers were made BECAUSE players do it
this change is unnecessary because NOBODY does it

The arguments get even wierder.

[Zka]

I suppose you could argue for an appeal system for deaths caused by bugs in the game, but griefing? Absolutely not. You basically sign up to be the potential target of griefing when you join in PvP servers.

That argument sounds like blaming victims of rape for being underdressed or entering the wrong street at night.
If you don't see the difference between losing a bit of time due to ganking in PVP and losing your entire character built over days or weeks of /played then something is very wrong with you.

[Ielenia]

That argument sounds like blaming victims of rape for being underdressed or entering the wrong street at night.

No, it's more like you can't complain about getting shot if you willingly decide to walk through the middle of a shootout.

Your comparison of this situation to rape says more about you than me, by the way.

If you don't see the difference between losing a bit of time due to ganking in PVP and losing your entire character built over days or weeks of /played then something is very wrong with you.

There's nothing wrong with me, and there's no difference between those two situations. The first is "dying to PvP" and the second is "dying to PvP". The only difference is the difficulty mode. Again: if you sign up to a hardcore server, you are signing up to losing your character forever if you die.

[Nathanyel]

How is it counterproductive to prevent loss of days of gameplay due to bugs or griefing?

This right here is why I believe that while many people cry for hardcore servers, hardly anyone would play them beyond their first death, if it means losing so much progress.
WoW isn't a game that only takes a few hours to 'complete', and continues long after reaching the maximum level.

Deaths happen in a game, they're not the end of the game, just a setback.

[Revamp Man]

The arguments get even wierder.

It's change for the sake of change and it has never worked
"This is working great but let's add something that nobody who it would effect wants or does because it ruins the point of HC servers"

[LordVargK]

That argument sounds like blaming victims of rape for being underdressed or entering the wrong street at night.
If you don't see the difference between losing a bit of time due to ganking in PVP and losing your entire character built over days or weeks of /played then something is very wrong with you.

No need to get personal here. If one plays on a PvP server then getting ganked is a possible way to die and intended by the game. Let's put it another way:
Did you do something wrong when not locking your house before going to work or leaving your bike unlocked somewhere? No. The one robbing your house or stealing your bike did. But no insurance company would pay you out for your losses.

[Zka]

Again: if you sign up to a hardcore server, you are signing up to losing your character forever if you die.

No. The most important part is missing. The loss of your character must be YOUR fault. Irresponsible play, overconfidence, lack of skill, being afk, whatever. Being griefed is NOT your fault (even if and when it would have been avoidable with more caution). Bugs are also not your fault.

Disconnects are also not your fault, though these are not appealable properly as you can't prove the disconnect happened (and it wasn't faked by you to escape a shitty situation).

Of course one can argue that if HC mode goes official and the game literally does not allow resurrection, that will prevent a lot of griefing. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't.

Not sure why I am arguing about this. The wow hardcore community that inspired official HC servers have their own rules and whoah, incredibly: griefing IS appealable in that community. If you want griefing to be unappealable, you are not forced to appeal it.

[Revamp Man]

This right here is why I believe that while many people cry for hardcore servers, hardly anyone would play them beyond their first death, if it means losing so much progress.
WoW isn't a game that only takes a few hours to 'complete', and continues long after reaching the maximum level.

Deaths happen in a game, they're not the end of the game, just a setback.

This is why nothing blizz does will be better than the community created style

[Aleksej89]

Griefing is part of the Vanilla, even on PVE servers.
Heck even awful class design and uneven balance is a genuine part of the Vanilla.
Only deaths from server issues should be considered for reversal.

If you want a sterile safespace consider playing Dragonflight.

[Zka]

Did you do something wrong when not locking your house before going to work or leaving your bike unlocked somewhere? No. The one robbing your house or stealing your bike did. But no insurance company would pay you out for your losses.

If you don't lock your bike, that is your fault. Of course the thief is also at fault for committing crime, but it's also your fault for not taking the most basic care for your property.

You buy a bike lock and the guy who sold you the lock keeps a copy of the key and steals your bike. You can't prevent this theft most of the time.
You did your part, you locked the bike, but someone got through your defenses and your bike is stolen even though you did nothing wrong.
This is a better analogy for griefing if we want to use the bike lock example.

[LordVargK]

If you don't lock your bike, that is your fault. Of course the thief is also at fault for committing crime, but it's also your fault for not taking the most basic care for your property.

You buy a bike lock and the guy who sold you the lock keeps a copy of the key and steals your bike. You can't prevent this theft most of the time.
You did your part, you locked the bike, but someone got through your defenses and your bike is stolen even though you did nothing wrong.
This is a better analogy for griefing if we want to use the bike lock example.

Not locking your bike is equivalent to playing on a PvP-Server: You willingly take an unnecessarry risk.

[Ielenia]

No. The most important part is missing. The loss of your character must be YOUR fault.

Actually, no. You would have a point if you're playing a single-player game like Skyrim, but you're playing a massively multiplayer online game, which means you're not alone in that game, which means what other people do can affect you.