Did Aberrus prove that WoW raids should be easier?

[Osmeric]

people not clearing raids fast enough is equaly bad.

It's much worse. People clear the raid too fast, they might grumble, but they're also flattered. If they don't clear the raid fast enough (or at all) they are enraged. And rage is a universal solvent for sunk cost devotion to a game.

[Soon-TM]

All combat based addons should be axed.

Honestly, this is the only way to end the arms race between raid designers and addon makers for good. By default, everybody should be in equal footing (bar external factors like non-server lag) when it comes to reacting to boss mechanics.

[Ezyah]

I don't remember the last time a raid felt so boring to me. There's a tragic lack of innovation and mechanics overall.

I hope you this is not the way going forward...

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Honestly, this is the only way to end the arms race between raid designers and addon makers for good. By default, everybody should be in equal footing (bar external factors like non-server lag) when it comes to reacting to boss mechanics.

Everybody's on equal footing. Add ons are very accessible and weak auras are easy to get / share.

Pretty sure if people don't make the effort to download it, they won't make the effort it takes to kill harder difficulties anyway...

[Jastall]

Honestly, this is the only way to end the arms race between raid designers and addon makers for good. By default, everybody should be in equal footing (bar external factors like non-server lag) when it comes to reacting to boss mechanics.

I'm pretty sure such an extensive block to the API would nuke most addons outright. And that is not something Blizzard wants or should want.

There's a case to be made for making fights clearer at base. But removing addons is not the play.

[Soon-TM]

Pretty sure if people don't make the effort to download it, they won't make the effort it takes to kill harder difficulties anyway...

Here's the thing - a higher game difficulty shouldn't mean that it pretty much undoable with the basic UI, i.e. without third party software. I don't need addons for Uber Maven encounters in PoE, high GRs in D3 or Savage raids in FF14. I fully expect the basic UI to provide me with all the information I need, and so far only WoW fails to do so.

[Ezyah]

Here's the thing - a higher game difficulty shouldn't mean that it pretty much undoable with the basic UI, i.e. without third party software. I don't need addons for Uber Maven encounters in PoE, high GRs in D3 or Savage raids in FF14. I fully expect the basic UI to provide me with all the information I need, and so far only WoW fails to do so.

Here is another PoV : Making your UI IS part of the game. A part i personally love. Hell, i wish I could make weak auras for all my other games. More customisation option is better. I don't want to be restricted because other people can't enjoy more accessibility options.

[ONCHEhap]

Echo, a top tier guild in woW took 2000 pulls to do the last FFXIV boss in an 8 man group.

That's what happens when they can't be hard carried by addons like in WoW

[durenas]

This is the result of a game design shift during Wrath.

People socialized and joined guilds in Vanilla because it wasn't just raiding that was hard. It was the whole game that was hard. The world had packs of dangerous mobs that were very risky to take on by yourself, and it would take a long time to get to wherever you wanted to go, so you didn't want to die, and there could be a considerable monetary loss in repair bills and food and potions and arrows and so on. You could theoretically solo level to cap farming easy mobs but it would take a long time, and you would be in the dark without other people sharing information with you. So you really wanted to play in a party with other people, who you saw a lot of in the same position as you all around you out in the world.

You are massively overstating the difficulty of vanilla(not classic) wow. Yes it was much more difficult, but people mostly leveled solo, and they mostly did it by questing. They(we) would form the occasional group to clear one or two elite quests in a zone, and then they(we) would go our separate ways. Sometimes this formed personal attachments, most times, not.

You would almost never find people leveling solo by grinding mobs. It simply was not an efficient way to level.

Vanilla lacked a dungeon finder. If you wanted to do a dungeon, you had to find four other people who fulfilled specific roles and had motivation to do that dungeon. The effort required to assemble that group and reach the dungeon really motivated you to make sure that group succeeded. You were out in the world trying to find committed individuals to play this difficult content with. "This guy can tank and he's good! I need him!". You created a friends list and formed guilds, and then it scales up from there. The design of the game facilitated the formation of guilds.

We had leveling guilds, but they usually didn't translate into raiding guilds, because the kind of person who is good at forming a leveling guild isn't necessarily the same kind of mindset to form a raiding guild. The level of organization is orders of magnitude greater. Generally the experience was, you leveled solo, maybe you got an invite into a leveling guild, maybe it was from someone you grouped with, maybe it was just a random invite. And once you hit 60, you looked around to see what the prospects are. Usually there were 2 or 3 really good raiding guilds on server, and if you were really REALLY lucky(I was), you got a trial with them. Otherwise, you found who you could and raided that way.

When LFG was added mid-way through WotLK, people who were already doing dungeons had good gear and were already competent, so there were no complaints. Gradually, the competency of the playerbase decreased because you no longer needed to be good to maintain your relationship with your friends who you needed to do dungeons with. You no longer had to invest in friendships. When Cataclysm launched, people did not have good gear and you had new, incompetent players who reached level cap via solo questing and never made a friend being funneled into Cata dungeons. And people did not have to be nice to each other. Got a bad run? You can drop out of that instance never seeing those people again, queue up, and get into another group. The stakes were further reduced as repair bills and food and potions and etc weren't expensive anymore, and you could teleport into dungeons so even less time was wasted. This created a reflexive effect where Blizzard nerfed Cata dungeons, rather than the playerbase getting their shit together and rising to the occasion.

I don't really wanna blame LFG, I want to blame Blizzard constantly decreasing the difficulty across the board. Keep in mind that by the time LFG was added to the game, ICC was just around the corner and people were already overgeared for the dungeons. The only dungeons that were any kind of a challenge were Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection, and they were a shitshow at first. What LFG contributed to was a complete lack of accountability among the people queuing up. Bad behavior wasn't punished because the people in the queue, you would never see them again, most likely, and they would never see you again. So they could behave as badly and play as badly as they liked, with no consequence. This leads us to today.

A mercenary mentality seeped into the game where players started viewing each other as cogs in a machine delaying them from getting their chores done. If someone is new and botches a mechanic, there are no bonds of friendship. Too much of a bother to stop and try to teach him, and those who do take the time to try to teach are often met with explosive outbursts. So it's easier to just kick the "underperformer" and replace them. This then leads to the playerbase becoming increasingly antisocial and the arise of toxicity as the mature oldtimer players are gradually replaced by a new generation.

I think by and large we agree that the game got less difficult and players got dumber. But I tend to blame the players, not the design, though the design attracted the bad players.

[Jastall]

Here's the thing - a higher game difficulty shouldn't mean that it pretty much undoable with the basic UI, i.e. without third party software. I don't need addons for Uber Maven encounters in PoE, high GRs in D3 or Savage raids in FF14. I fully expect the basic UI to provide me with all the information I need, and so far only WoW fails to do so.

LFR and Normal definitely don't require addons, especially this tier. Ability timings are all very forgiving and aside from the purple vomit that is Sarkareth ph2/3 I find most mechanics to be well telegraphed. Neltharion is a bit of a standout on that front if you ask me.

At this point in WoW's life destroying most of its UI customization would be a terrible idea, there's no way that a playerbase accustomed to tinkering with such things won't see it as a major removed feature. You may think it's a good answer but it really, really isn't.

[deenman]

i rly dont get this attitude,isnt lfr easy enough? or normal?why does mythic have to also be easy enough to afk to victory?is it some ego thing?just play classic for fudge sake and enjoy your roleplaying as a good raider

[durenas]

I am sorry. But you are objectively wrong and this post is nonsense.

Look at Classic WoW. The raids are cleared DAY 1.

Nax during WTLK Classic

MC / ZG / BWL during Vanilla WoW Classic

By casual guilds, heck even by pugs these raids were cleared day 1 by drunk gamer dads who are awful at video games.

And what do the numbers show us? Some of the best WoW metrics in the history of Classic WoW. All these numbers were also good for a very long time. The logs were crazy good for a long time, and Naxx was released for the FOURTH time in WoW´s history.

So yeah, it is perfectly cool that YOU do not want to see this again. However, for the general playerbase, braindead easy content = success. It is a matter of fact at this point.

Before anyone brings up Dark souls difficulty or whatever. I love the The Dark Souls games, but they are all incredibly easy and have ways to outlevel / outgear / outcheese / out-summon content so that anyone can play and defeat them.

Classic is NOT VANILLA.
Yes, in classic we cleared MC in the first week. But there are a ton of things wrong with this picture. In vanilla we started in patch 1.01(or whatever it was). In classic we're on 1.14 or something. There were MASSIVE class rebalances that happened midway through that cycle. I cannot even express the difference, they introduced spellpower and healing power as stats, which is utterly massive. They added mp5, which is, eh.

Players in classic have 'solved the game.' They are making efficient min/max choices because they know what to do right out the gate. In vanilla, we didn't. We REALLY didn't. IIRC I started the game in mid-november or early december. For months, the highest raid was UBRS, which took 15 people to clear. We started doing MC and Ony at some point in early 2005, I think it was either febuary or march, but don't quote me on that. There was SO much time before our server first gehennas kill.

[munkeyinorbit]

You may see more participation, and say "Hey, that's a good thing," but it's bad for the game long-term. Two problems are created:

1. People clear the content too quickly, and so take time off earlier to play other games;

2. People have less incentive to play their class better, resulting in a lesser-skilled community.

Honestly, this is just Blizzard pendulum swinging nonsense. I don't think anyone wants to see another Sepulcher, but I really don't want to see another joke tier like this one again.

Or you keep more people engaged for longer because the content is easier and there are less roadblocks to progress.

AND

People's skill don't really change regardless of gear. It doesn't matter if Timmy Shitrogue has normal gear or heroic gear. He is just as bad as they were. Harder content doesn't make better players. It only excludes players.

Both of these have been talked about by blizzard a number of times especially when explaining why they nerf content.

YOU may dislike "joke" tiers and blizzard may have gone too far but it's hardly bad for the game as a whole.

[Vampyrr]

No. They should not be easier, at all.

You are welcome to your wrong opinion but catering to the 1% of the 1% is a good way to kill a game. Casuals are the breadwinners of wow not the hardcore. They need to do things for them more so than the elite.

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i rly dont get this attitude,isnt lfr easy enough? or normal?why does mythic have to also be easy enough to afk to victory?is it some ego thing?just play classic for fudge sake and enjoy your roleplaying as a good raider

No one afks mythic to victory lol. But having the checks be easier and less crazy mechanics that stack on each other is nothing but a positive.

[Soon-TM]

Here is another PoV : Making your UI IS part of the game. A part i personally love. Hell, i wish I could make weak auras for all my other games. More customisation option is better. I don't want to be restricted because other people can't enjoy more accessibility options.

It isn't about accessibility options, it's about Blizzard providing a proper UI instead of relying on third party developers to fill in the blanks. It's like hacking the @#$& out of your operative system because the maker/maintainer is a lazy excuse for a developer who cba to provide a proper UI for anything more complicated than opening your browser. Sure, you could say "it's customisable and I don't want to lose that", but you are failing to understand why is so "customisable" in the first place.

LFR and Normal definitely don't require addons, especially this tier. Ability timings are all very forgiving and aside from the purple vomit that is Sarkareth ph2/3 I find most mechanics to be well telegraphed. Neltharion is a bit of a standout on that front if you ask me.

At this point in WoW's life destroying most of its UI customization would be a terrible idea, there's no way that a playerbase accustomed to tinkering with such things won't see it as a major removed feature. You may think it's a good answer but it really, really isn't.

Then I don't really see the point in making different tiers of difficulty if the higher tiers are supposed to be cheesed to a large extent with stuff like DBM/WA. OMG I'm playing DBM! What an exciting game!

[Lochton]

You are welcome to your wrong opinion but catering to the 1% of the 1% is a good way to kill a game. Casuals are the breadwinners of wow not the hardcore. They need to do things for them more so than the elite.

I am not talking for the 1%.

LFR, and Normal are quite easy to understand and get into, with a little more effort, and Heroic able to be good too, and Mythic, nope, shouldn't be reduced in difficulty as that is made for the 1%.

Sincerely, the hardcore casual (since calling people hardcore or casuals aren't really a valid thing anymore)

[Nymrohd]

It's much worse. People clear the raid too fast, they might grumble, but they're also flattered. If they don't clear the raid fast enough (or at all) they are enraged. And rage is a universal solvent for sunk cost devotion to a game.

And imo people who clear the raid reasonably fast WILL COME BACK for the next one. Sure the guild might get deserted during farm but people will start popping up a couple of weeks before the new raid and almost everyone will be there for it if not more (with social players who did not want to raid cause they hate the pressure of constant wipes deciding to give it a try for this tier). Make it punishing and you are telling more and more players that maybe this game is not for them and they will find something better to do with their time. Not everyone is an addict like the people in this forum.

[Jastall]

Then I don't really see the point in making different tiers of difficulty if the higher tiers are supposed to be cheesed to a large extent with stuff like DBM/WA. OMG I'm playing DBM! What an exciting game!

You clearly haven't done Mythic if you think addons "cheese" it and are arguing from a position of ignorance.

[MatadorMedia]

Normal felt like brute forcing the bosses and dealing with simple mechanics. It's how I imagine LFR *should* be, however LFR is much more difficult to deal with due to the idiots in your group but also the unnecessarily increased health pools which really make the fights drag. Heroic is actually a legit raid; I'm finding it an appropriate challenge. I'm glad if more players are suddenly getting into raiding. I had a pretty big lapse in raiding prior to Dragonflight but I've found their raids to be more accessible.

[HansOlo]

It isn't about accessibility options, it's about Blizzard providing a proper UI instead of relying on third party developers to fill in the blanks. It's like hacking the @#$& out of your operative system because the maker/maintainer is a lazy excuse for a developer who cba to provide a proper UI for anything more complicated than opening your browser. Sure, you could say "it's customisable and I don't want to lose that", but you are failing to understand why is so "customisable" in the first place.



Then I don't really see the point in making different tiers of difficulty if the higher tiers are supposed to be cheesed to a large extent with stuff like DBM/WA. OMG I'm playing DBM! What an exciting game!

You clearly haven't done Mythic if you think addons "cheese" it and are arguing from a position of ignorance.

Blizzard is clearly designing raids around addons. Otherwise they would had disabled the addons.

It's for me stupid not to use addons.

Also - it's not a bad thing that Blizzard allows people to create addons. That means they won't use resources on addons, and community members gets credit for thier work. It's really wierd if Blizzard would make a DBM to beat thier own game. It simple doesn't make sense.

SoonTM - we had exchanges couple of times. Can you please reflect before you post - you really have a wierd way.

[Kalisandra]

You may see more participation, and say "Hey, that's a good thing," but it's bad for the game long-term. Two problems are created:

1. People clear the content too quickly, and so take time off earlier to play other games;

2. People have less incentive to play their class better, resulting in a lesser-skilled community.

Honestly, this is just Blizzard pendulum swinging nonsense. I don't think anyone wants to see another Sepulcher, but I really don't want to see another joke tier like this one again.

Time and time again it's been shown that when you make the content hard players do not 'Git Gud'. Instead, they quit. Cataclysm made that crystal clear. The only way in which your point #2 is remotely correct is that those who don't go will be the hardcore who will tend to be more skilled (or at least more persistent). So, yes the average level of skill will be higher, but that's because the less pain-resistant have left - and that removes the recruiting pool and the social draw of the game. You can also see this in arena, where all attempts to make it more 'pro sports' have removed the pool of lower-ranking players that are necessary to keep queues rolling and the arena scene healthy.

This elitist attitude results in a poor game experience for the semi-hardcore who like to do a little raiding, do a little ranked PvP but aren't massively into it, and they're what supports everyone else in those areas. End result - lower subs, fewer people playing, less income for Blizzard, worse support for the game and fewer devs and thus worse product. You want to kill your precious raids? This is how you do it.

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On a side note, you can also point to the extremely lively casual raiding and pug scene that developed over the course of Wrath, especially 3.3, hitting the brick wall of 4.0 raids and falling apart.

This, and the way they made 10-man and 25-man raids share lockouts in Cata killed the pug raid scene on my server. The harder raids turned my guild from a 2 x 10-man and some-time 25-man guild into a single 10-man raid group guild, and that meant a large bench and that meant lots of people quitting because their 'raid night' might well turn into nothing.

4.0 was shit. Firelands was better, but by then it was too late.

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When Cataclysm launched, people did not have good gear and you had new, incompetent players who reached level cap via solo questing and never made a friend being funneled into Cata dungeons. And people did not have to be nice to each other. Got a bad run? You can drop out of that instance never seeing those people again, queue up, and get into another group. The stakes were further reduced as repair bills and food and potions and etc weren't expensive anymore, and you could teleport into dungeons so even less time was wasted. This created a reflexive effect where Blizzard nerfed Cata dungeons, rather than the playerbase getting their shit together and rising to the occasion.

However, even players in guilds who made sure they got geared, were with people they knew, on comms, etc. found a lot of Cata's content punishing pre-nerfs. That was the death of a lot of non-hardcore guilds, because it locked causals out of heroic dungeons and thus out of raiding - something they'd been enjoying in LK and probably in BC (even if it was just a Kara run each week after it and heroic dungeons had been nerfed to the point where they were sane) and Vanilla (again, even though it might only have been the early raids).

BTW, I don't think Vanilla was really hard. It was, however, very slow and being in groups sped things up greatly especially for certain classes (cue flashbacks of levelling a Paladin largely solo).