[Spoilers] Under The Fat Goose Inn (D4 general talk)

[Gaidax]

And that would be a great reveal later down the line to show how deep Mephisto's plotting is which absolutely fits his character. Sadly though it is still not something that we know happened. It is a solid speculation.
And I am so happy that the focus is on Mephisto and not Diablo. Of the three Prime Evils, Diablo being the focus always felt so stupid since he has the least personality. Mephisto is the brilliant schemer, Baal is the campy psychopath. Diablo is just the silent brute or in D3 the generic villain spouting cliches.

It's a Diablo game - they intentionally keep things laconic and on the need to know basis, because people mostly don't give a fuck about expositions and just want to move on to kill shit.

You literally have people who see this thing first time ever and already skip all the cutscenes let alone flavor text.


I mean, do we really need everything chewed up and explained to us in a typical "Muhahahaaa let me explain my whole grand plan in finest details to you, random dude I just met, so you can fuck it all up here and now" manner?

I think reasonable obscuring of the grand scheme is important for a better storytelling, this way you get to sit there and wonder about what is going on. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that majority of people who would play this game won't even have a clue about Sin War.


In such an environment don't expect some extensive expositions in-game about how Inarius got away/was let go - the Horadrim do not know that and that's your only credible source of reference outside Mephisto telling you that bit that all he did was "focus his anger".

Just one more 4D chess move out of zillion moves Mephisto did over the course of franchise. The whole bloody wolf helping you from first minute of the game shows just how far or roundabout his foresight and planning go.

Heck I would not be surprised if in expansion or two down the road we'd figure out his whole pokeball moment was yet another step towards the actual goal, even with all that protesting and being afraid charade going on. This is a Diablo game after all and he conveniently found himself where he likely wanted to be - in the Sanctuary.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing indirect about it. Donan tells you exactly how problematic and unsafe the process is.

Yes, but he tells you literally sentence after that despite all that - it's the best weapon we got, which is true.

Soulstones fail eventually, but this eventually can be a thousand years away, as opposed you just "killing" the guy and him just reforming within your lifetime as we have seen now.

In other words - Soulstones bad, but they sure better than anything else we'd do.

[Nymrohd]

It's a Diablo game - they intentionally keep things laconic and on the need to know basis, because people mostly don't give a fuck about expositions and just want to move on to kill shit.

Oh I don't expect this level of detail to be front and center. But given the world building potential of the new format it can be hidden in side quests or just general lore from clickable items. Just want to eventually get that piece of information.

- - - Updated - - -

In other words - Soulstones bad, but they sure better than anything else we'd do.

And again, Soulstones so far have mostly failed because the Horadrim practically fell apart by the time they finished with Diablo's and did not really store the properly. If as I said someone threw them at the bottom of the deepest abyss in Sanctuary, good luck finding someone to corrupt to set you free.

[Gaidax]

Oh I don't expect this level of detail to be front and center. But given the world building potential of the new format it can be hidden in side quests or just general lore from clickable items. Just want to eventually get that piece of information.

They didn't hide whole Sin War in clickables in D2, not sure why'd you expect every detail to exist in clickables in D4.

Eventually we will know one way or another, that eventually is not now and neither is important now for the game either. For all you know, we may find out who and how as part of the plot in expansion when we'd may need that hidden path.

- - - Updated - - -

And again, Soulstones so far have mostly failed because the Horadrim practically fell apart by the time they finished with Diablo's and did not really store the properly. If as I said someone threw them at the bottom of the deepest abyss in Sanctuary, good luck finding someone to corrupt to set you free.

Tossing soulstone into some tomb did not work, why you'd expect sea would be a solution? Some sealife will get it and then will get washed ashore and 'ere you go our ol' boi Meth is out and about.

All their fuckups were exactly because you just threw it in some bucket, locked it up and threw away the key, and forgot it existed.

Donan literally tells you - someone needs to constantly watch over this shit being aware of it, which is where Horadrim failed.

[Nymrohd]

They didn't hide whole Sin War in clickables in D2, not sure why'd you expect every detail to exist in clickables in D4.

Eventually we will know one way or another, that eventually is not now and neither is important now for the game either. For all you know, we may find out who and how as part of the plot in expansion when we'd may need that hidden path.

There is little common ground in the world building design of D2 and D4. Far more in common with D3 where every other second you'd get a voice over about this or that mob or place. And again, I did not say I want to know now. I just said I want to know eventually. I think Mephisto will not even be part of the plot of the first xpac, he is more likely to be the second one. I expect the next expac to show us what happened to Tyrael and maybe Imperius can pay us a visit.

[lanerios]

Just finished Act 2, and halfway through Act 3. Gotta say this is the first ARPG where I actually care about the story. And before the PoE fanboys jump down my throat, I never gave a fuck about any of those characters or the world. Their story is horribly told.

[Mehrunes]

I mean... On the contrary - they focused their attention on Mephisto first and foremost, putting him in a pokeball was a way to both stop the reforming process - the whole point of this decision was that he was a far greater threat.

PC just stayed behind to give the team enough time to GTFO with a soulstone and foiling her whole plan. Downing Lillith was just a bonus and a happy coincidence - it was not some pre-planned outcome.

Except for the part where all of this is wrong and the only one who focused on Mephisto was Neyrelle. Who, when she first mentioned that he is the greater threat that they should be focusing on rather than Lilith, was instantly dismissed by everyone around her. Because they wanted to focus on Lilith (to the point of repeatedly accepting Mephisto's help against her in the PC's case) and made the soulstone for her.

The PC getting convinced by Neyrelle when she made her case the second time, right at the last second when they were already in front of Mephisto and Lilith was on her way is not the PC "focusing their attention on Mephisto first and foremost" by any stretch of those terms. Especially since the PC didn't even make the decision per se, they just decided to leave the choice up to Neyrelle.

Hell, when the PC finally told Lorath about Mephisto he said they should have told him sooner, but that they have bigger issues at the moment, those issues being Lilith.

Ditto for the PC fighting Lilith, because not only was the soulstone intended for her, but the PC was explicitly proclaimed to be the backup plan when the party got to Caldeum, in light of them already downing one of the Evils.

[Kumorii]

I half expect that Neyrelle have been influenced for a long time. Hence her focus on him.
Trapping Mephisto in the soulstone didn't only just trap him, it saved him from Lilith in case the PC should've failed in defeating her.
Mephisto had to leave that place. Being in control over the one having his soulstone? Perfect for him. I really hope that he's played a role since the beginning in influencing Neyrelle and it doesn't turn out to be that he will start now when they are on their trip. Considering tropes though and her being a teenager I worry that she's special and strong and can resist him and this is all her plan, but I rather hope that's not the case. She should falter enough to lead to his escape, but not fully to become another Leah.

The set up is there, I hope it's intentional and this could be a great pay-off.

[Mehrunes]

Also, one interesting thing I noted that I didn't get full context for is that during the end where you arrive in Caldeum, after the first fight with a cultist ambush, Lorath or Donan said something along the lines of "Hatred? But I thought Elias converted the Cult to worship Lilith instead". The problem is the preceding text didn't trigger for me for whatever reason, but this bit alone implied there were some mixed loyalties within the ranks of the cultists and Mephisto was stirring shit up (potentially against Lilith as well) from that front too.

And again, Soulstones so far have mostly failed because the Horadrim practically fell apart by the time they finished with Diablo's and did not really store the properly. If as I said someone threw them at the bottom of the deepest abyss in Sanctuary, good luck finding someone to corrupt to set you free.

Or they could have just yeeted the Soulstones into the Void, where the only thing they'd be able to corrupt was Lilith (and I don't think that'd even be possible). Tyrael should have been able to banish something there given how Inarius banished people there at least three times.

I half expect that Neyrelle have been influenced for a long time. Hence her focus on him.
Trapping Mephisto in the soulstone didn't only just trap him, it saved him from Lilith in case the PC should've failed in defeating her.
Mephisto had to leave that place. Being in control over the one having his soulstone? Perfect for him. I really hope that he's played a role since the beginning in influencing Neyrelle and it doesn't turn out to be that he will start now when they are on their trip. Considering tropes though and her being a teenager I worry that she's special and strong and can resist him and this is all her plan, but I rather hope that's not the case. She should falter enough to lead to his escape, but not fully to become another Leah.

The set up is there, I hope it's intentional and this could be a great pay-off.

It doesn't stop at just saving him from Lilith. He's once again in Sanctuary and getting to Sanctuary has been the goal of the Prime Evils for eons. To the point they orchestrated a rebellion of the Lesser Evils that ended in them getting kicked out of Hell (fully intending to get trapped in Soulstones the first time around).

The fact that he's able to manifest in his skull wolf form around Neyrelle is also unusual and most likely problematic. I don't remember anything of the sort for the previous times the Prime Evils were trapped in Soulstones. Perhaps it's a case of him being trapped in a Soulstone intended for a lesser demon (originally Astaroth, then attuned to Lilith), making his power spill out before he even got to corrupt her. The same applies to her being able to use his portals.

[infinitemeridian]

My biggest concern for this game is that Blizzard will just treat it like a standard ARPG moving forward with its seasonal / expansion update. The big selling point was this shared, mmo-esque open world. Yet the game barely capitalizes on it - there's no content requiring more than one person, there's no matchmaking system, nobody talks in chat, I never see players out in the world, clans are barebones.

[Mehrunes]

If Lilith absorbed Mephisto that would not remove a Prime Evil though. It would just make HER a Prime Evil. As for the outbreaks of cannibalism around her, it's not just Guuhlran. I doubt Navi at Nevesk was playing Mrs. Lovett before she met Lilith.

And a Prime Evil (though I think Lorath said she'd become like a Prime Evil; probably in terms of power) that wants to protect Sanctuary from the Eternal Conflict, even if for her selfish reasons of wanting to be left the fuck alone by the warring morons in Hell and High Heavens, kinda beats a Prime Evil that explicitly wants to corrupt the hell out of Sanctuary for the purposes of using it in the Eternal Conflict (or a member of the Angiris Council wiping out 90% of humans and another angel whipping humans into a crusading frenzy while seeing them as abominations that must be cleansed). Especially when she confirms in a circumstance where she doesn't need to lie, that she doesn't want to lead humans, implying that her desire to be left alone includes them as long as the Eternal Conflict is no longer a problem for Sanctuary.

[bloodwulf]

And a Prime Evil (though I think Lorath said she'd become like a Prime Evil; probably in terms of power) that wants to protect Sanctuary from the Eternal Conflict, even if for her selfish reasons of wanting to be left the fuck alone by the warring morons in Hell and High Heavens, kinda beats a Prime Evil that explicitly wants to corrupt the hell out of Sanctuary for the purposes of using it in the Eternal Conflict (or a member of the Angiris Council wiping out 90% of humans). Especially when she confirms in a circumstance where she doesn't need to lie, that she doesn't want to lead humans, implying that her desire to be left alone includes them as long as the Eternal Conflict is no longer a problem for Sanctuary.

You nailed my biggest complaint of the story. I genuinely think aiding Lilith would of been the far more interesting choice for the story. Separate Sanctuary from the Eternal Conflict, and then in later expansions tell us what happens when Heaven and Hell no longer has this chess board to play their wargames on. Instead we went with the safest route storyline wise that is just going to lead into a retelling of previous games storylines.

[Kumorii]

It doesn't stop at just saving him from Lilith. He's once again in Sanctuary and getting to Sanctuary has been the goal of the Prime Evils for eons. To the point they orchestrated a rebellion of the Lesser Evils that ended in them getting kicked out of Hell (fully intending to get trapped in Soulstones the first time around).

The fact that he's able to manifest in his skull wolf form around Neyrelle is also unusual and most likely problematic. I don't remember anything of the sort for the previous times the Prime Evils were trapped in Soulstones. Perhaps it's a case of him being trapped in a Soulstone intended for a lesser demon (originally Astaroth, then attuned to Lilith), making his power spill out before he even got to corrupt her. The same applies to her being able to use his portals.

Yeah, after posting it just struck me that it's when you're supposed to meet Neyrelle after the tomb where her mother was is when you face him first.
She has been connected to him since the start. Mephisto even says "I want you to succeed, but you'll never will if you follow the Horadrim" during the first encounter.
Then Neyrelle saying the same thing at the end about their plan isn't gonna work, but hers is. Neyrelle is making Mephistos warnings come true.

Excited for the next expansion already, dammit.

- - - Updated - - -

You nailed my biggest complaint of the story. I genuinely think aiding Lilith would of been the far more interesting choice for the story. Separate Sanctuary from the Eternal Conflict, and then in later expansions tell us what happens when Heaven and Hell no longer has this chess board to play their wargames on. Instead we went with the safest route storyline wise that is just going to lead into a retelling of previous games storylines.

Aiding Lilith won't make sanctuary a better place though. Her values, being an evil force, doesn't coincide with our morals and values. Sanctuary under her rule would be safe from heaven and hell, but it would still be ruled by a force that makes people hate each other. It wouldn't be a paradise. Lilith doesn't mind this since that's the nature of her "children".

People on sanctuary wants to be free from both heaven and hell, aiding Lilith just means a lesser evil of hell rules. It will still become hell on earth so to speak.
I can see how some religious devotees, such as Elias, will see this as the "lesser" evil... but in the end, so far it has been better for people to fight for their freedom rather than give in.

And a game without heaven or hell sounds kinda boring to me. It's them that makes diablo, diablo. If another Diablo game is Sanctuary but free from heaven or hell it's just like any non-diablo game where humans fight among themselves. It would become sort of a medieval fallout. I'm interested in how people of sanctuary deal with the forces, not some interpersonal drama or country vs country story.

[Inoculate]

When angels die in this universe they go back to the crystal arc and reform new angels. I can't remember if they come with any memories of their past lives or if it's just a new batch spawned from the ones that died, but regardless, they do come back.

Demons dying just has them manifest again in hell overtime, much like you saw with Mephisto being reformed.

Sanctuary was just a means to get outside of the eternal conflict, which is why Lilith seduced Inarius and made it to begin with. He became weary of their power, neutralized some of them and made them weaker because he saw what he had created. This caused her to be furious and also during this time the forces of Hell noticed something was going on. Eventually Lilith gets banished and when heaven/hell were poised with what to make of Sanctuary, I believe Mephisto brokered a deal where they would leave it to decide it's own fate but in exchange they would get Inarius. How Inarius escapes Hell is anyones guess, but I'd presume it must have been when Hell was at it's weakest (during the events of RoS).

So if you ever feel like the story is sort of going into a loop with recurring themes, that's sort of the point. Just in this game you get to witness how the faith in the game can be just as bad as the triune (one worships angels, the other the three brothers of hell). That's why Lilith is sounds so defeated at the end. She's not dead and her entire ambition was to stop fighting forever. Fighting would still exist, but it would only be amongst her creations. Heaven/Hell would just cease to exist.

Had this been a single player experience I'd imagine you could side with Lilith, which I probably would've done. The story sort of rehashes events of D1/D2 with the girl being the wanderer, but I'm okay with that. The way they did Mephisto was really cool.

When an angel dies, a new one is made to represent that aspect. It'll be a different angel with new memories and personality. At least if we go by the book of X lore.

[bloodwulf]

Aiding Lilith won't make sanctuary a better place though. Her values, being an evil force, doesn't coincide with our morals and values. Sanctuary under her rule would be safe from heaven and hell, but it would still be ruled by a force that makes people hate each other. It wouldn't be a paradise. Lilith doesn't mind this since that's the nature of her "children".

People on sanctuary wants to be free from both heaven and hell, aiding Lilith just means a lesser evil of hell rules. It will still become hell on earth so to speak.
I can see how some religious devotees, such as Elias, will see this as the "lesser" evil... but in the end, so far it has been better for people to fight for their freedom rather than give in.

And a game without heaven or hell sounds kinda boring to me. It's them that makes diablo, diablo. If another Diablo game is Sanctuary but free from heaven or hell it's just like any non-diablo game where humans fight among themselves. It would become sort of a medieval fallout.

My thoughts is, there is reason for the Eternal Conflict to exist, and if we sealed ourselves away from Heaven and Hell, they wouldnt just roll over and say o well, it would create a new plot point with both trying reopen access to Sanctuary. And yeah, Liliths reign would not be good, and there would be reason to try to depose her afterwards, and that could be a conflict point as well. The mortals literally have no good options of who is in control of Sanctuary, cause both Heaven and Hell don't care about the mortals. I just thought that a more interesting plot point would be the PC and mortals thinking that limiting Sanctuary's influence to just one Prime Evil instead of multiple and the Heavens, would give them the idea that it would be easier to free Sanctuary overall later.

[Nymrohd]

to the point of repeatedly accepting Mephisto's help against her in the PC's case

I mean the MC was not accepting Mephisto's help. In every case he was trapped and had no choice. He could stay trapped in whatever illusion I guess.

[AcidicSyn]

So I finally got my golem as necro, and I was annoyed trying to fit my basic, core, raise skele, raise golem, decrepify, corpse explosion, and army of the dead on my bar, I didn't want to get rid of any of them.

After some reading I found a few players who actually just....ditched the basic attack. Opting to use Blight as their primary, relying on corpse consuming and passives for essence generation. This has been working WONDERFULLY for me, so I'm wondering:

Anyone else playing necro without using the basic attack? (or any other class that is skipping basic or core skills entirely and finding some success with it?)

[Kumorii]

My thoughts is, there is reason for the Eternal Conflict to exist, and if we sealed ourselves away from Heaven and Hell, they wouldnt just roll over and say o well, it would create a new plot point with both trying reopen access to Sanctuary. And yeah, Liliths reign would not be good, and there would be reason to try to depose her afterwards, and that could be a conflict point as well. The mortals literally have no good options of who is in control of Sanctuary, cause both Heaven and Hell don't care about the mortals. I just thought that a more interesting plot point would be the PC and mortals thinking that limiting Sanctuary's influence to just one Prime Evil instead of multiple and the Heavens, would give them the idea that it would be easier to free Sanctuary overall later.

Ah yeah, that's fair.
Although I'm stoked that Mephisto is getting the spotlight now. Sure, we know he's scheming behind the scenes, but he essentially get a Camo appearance in D2, other than that Blizzard haven't done much with him in the games. Diablo is Diablo, that's clear. Baal got his own expansion.
After Mephisto, maybe?

- - - Updated - - -

So I finally got my golem as necro, and I was annoyed trying to fit my basic, core, raise skele, raise golem, decrepify, corpse explosion, and army of the dead on my bar, I didn't want to get rid of any of them.

After some reading I found a few players who actually just....ditched the basic attack. Opting to use Blight as their primary, relying on corpse consuming and passives for essence generation. This has been working WONDERFULLY for me, so I'm wondering:

Anyone else playing necro without using the basic attack? (or any other class that is skipping basic or core skills entirely and finding some success with it?)

Just got my golem as well lol.
That sounds interesting, so corpse consume with explosion and the passive talent I assume?

[Mehrunes]

Aiding Lilith won't make sanctuary a better place though. Her values, being an evil force, doesn't coincide with our morals and values. Sanctuary under her rule would be safe from heaven and hell, but it would still be ruled by a force that makes people hate each other. It wouldn't be a paradise. Lilith doesn't mind this since that's the nature of her "children".

But she didn't make any implication that she wants to rule anything as long as Sanctuary is safe. She wants to be left alone. When she was left alone after originally creating Sanctuary there were no legions of cannibals roaming about and eating each other and she left Nephalem to their own devices, only getting involved after the Prime Evils discovered Sanctuary and created Triune cult to corrupt humankind for their own devices. After which she focused her efforts on ruining their plans through subtle manipulation of key actors (and later impersonating Triune leader) rather than subjugating anyone. If anything, until said discovery was the best time for humankind in Sanctuary's history.

People on sanctuary wants to be free from both heaven and hell, aiding Lilith just means a lesser evil of hell rules. It will still become hell on earth so to speak.
I can see how some religious devotees, such as Elias, will see this as the "lesser" evil... but in the end, so far it has been better for people to fight for their freedom rather than give in.

Them wanting things is fine and dandy, but that's not really the setting for that. Both angels and demons are truly immortal (albeit angels are reborn as different angels, only demons keep their personalities) and the only two exceptions is the implied fate of Mephisto if Lilith succeeded and the strongest Nephalem in history wishing Lilith's brother to not exist anymore and warping reality in the process.

The Worldstone is gone, the Sanctuary no longer is shielded as it once was. Capital N Nephalem like Diablo 3's PC were rare even at the start of that game and that was before Malthael wiped out 90% of humanity. Sanctuary is vulnerable in general and there's barely anyone left to fight for their freedom or whatever other lofty ideals. The demons (and angels like Inarius or Malthael) will keep coming back and they will keep attacking Sanctuary until there is no one left to oppose them.

[AcidicSyn]

Ah yeah, that's fair.
Although I'm stoked that Mephisto is getting the spotlight now. Sure, we know he's scheming behind the scenes, but he essentially get a Camo appearance in D2, other than that Blizzard haven't done much with him in the games. Diablo is Diablo, that's clear. Baal got his own expansion.
After Mephisto, maybe?

- - - Updated - - -



Just got my golem as well lol.
That sounds interesting, so corpse consume with explosion and the passive talent I assume?

yeah, the build focuses heavily on using blight and slowing people into it. So you spec your corpse explosion into the one that turns it into a darkness class aoe dot. corpse consume and the passive give quite a bit of essence especially once you start getting your minions to generate corpses too. You spend your time spreading blight along with the corpse explo aoe blight and then buffing your skeles by raising more when you're at max pop and then refreshing decrepify every so often.

There's alot of time spent standing still in the bank ranks rather than spamming a baisc, so if you can get the aspect that increases your attack power by 30% so long as you're not moving it works pretty great in world tier 2.

It was rough on boss fights at first because my skeles could get one shot, but now that I have the talent that prevents them from losing more than 30% of their health in one shot, its been much smoother. The real test will be if I can get butcher to spawn again, last time he just ignored everyone and gunned straight for me.

[Mehrunes]

So I finally got my golem as necro, and I was annoyed trying to fit my basic, core, raise skele, raise golem, decrepify, corpse explosion, and army of the dead on my bar, I didn't want to get rid of any of them.

After some reading I found a few players who actually just....ditched the basic attack. Opting to use Blight as their primary, relying on corpse consuming and passives for essence generation. This has been working WONDERFULLY for me, so I'm wondering:

Anyone else playing necro without using the basic attack? (or any other class that is skipping basic or core skills entirely and finding some success with it?)

That's pretty much what I settled on in the open beta. Though I'm still somewhat disappointed that you need to outright put the summoning spells on your bar for them to work at all. Particularly annoying in case of the Golem, where the golem itself is active at all times and even respawns automatically, and the active ability is just an extra buff for it. Feels rather limiting for a class ability. To me it feels like they should be systems that exist on top of the ability system, not outright compete with it. Even throwing the generator out makes the Necromancer build options rather constrained because of that.

The fact that you don't, for example, need corpse explosion on your bar for it to be triggered by blood mist if you have that legendary made it all the more bizarre. So does the fact that the Necromancer summons already have their own dedicated subsystem of sacrificing the summon entirely if you don't want to use one.