WoW’s “feel” of the world.

[Grazrug]

Yes, yes. They should have engaged in a fight they KNEW they couldn't win, accomplishing jack shit since losing Mak'gora automatically means you were wrong, thereby leaving the Horde in Sylvie's hands, because the Horde is about not using your brains, as established by the Legion.

With absurd exaggerations, you're attacking the only Horde characters who realized that just maybe she didn't have the Horde's best interests at heart.

Neither Saurfang nor Baine ever had the Horde bests interests at heart. They are traitors and the majority of the community hates them. They wanted to surrender and leave the war at bad terms. Which was proven correct when we see the post Bfa world in the books Exploring Azeroth.

[Al Gorefiend]

Neither Saurfang nor Baine ever had the Horde bests interests at heart. They are traitors and the majority of the community hates them. They wanted to surrender and leave the war at bad terms. Which was proven correct when we see the post Bfa world in the books Exploring Azeroth.

The majority of people hated them because they were afraid a few expacs after BfA we'd end up with a carebear expansion where the factions are at peace and everyone forgives eachother and the faction line is blurred to allow Horde and Alliance to play together.

Thankfully that never happened and those people back in BfA were dead wrong.

[Orby]

I always felt like the tone of this expansion was lighter on purpose as a pallet cleanser for all the heavy shit we have have had. Like a low start that will build over time. Dragonflight felt like a soft reboot of WoW, what with the slight time skip, so this is like their beginning story beat and so wanted it to start light so over the next coming expansions it'll be harder hitting when it gets more heavier again

At least that's me playing devils advocate as to the lighter tone, we'll see over the coming expansions.

[Grazrug]

The majority of people hated them because they were afraid a few expacs after BfA we'd end up with a carebear expansion where the factions are at peace and everyone forgives eachother and the faction line is blurred to allow Horde and Alliance to play together.

Thankfully that never happened and those people back in BfA were dead wrong.

I can sense the sarcasm oozing right here.

[Soon-TM]

Dragonflight felt like a soft reboot of WoW.

I think I get where you're coming from, and I might even agree that some kind of reboot was needed after the major !@#$ups of BfA/SL. But DF feels too soft of a reboot, and for what I've seen it does an awful job at world building... Even Vanilla did a MUCH better job, even with all the technical and financial limitations of its time. If they wanted a reboot, then they should have gone with something drastic, such as e.g. Nipple Boi succeeding, partially at least, in his plans to reshape reality. But this timid, milquetoast excuse for a reboot that is DF fails at both accounts imo.

The majority of people hated them because they were afraid a few expacs after BfA we'd end up with a carebear expansion where the factions are at peace and everyone forgives eachother and the faction line is blurred to allow Horde and Alliance to play together.

Thankfully that never happened and those people back in BfA were dead wrong.

This boi knows what he's talking about, sadly

[VladlTutushkin]

They absolutely didn't. As a matter of fact, not even us as players knew until SoO 2.0

I know that you like to have Horde bigwigs sucking Ally dick, but c'mon.

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It certainly wasn't. If it had been established from the beginning that Sylv was working for her blue-skinned sugar daddy, and using borrowed power (huehue) from him, it might be more understandable. But until SoO 2.0, Sylv is just a regular banshee for all we know, so Baine/Sadfang refusing to fight her once the dispute becomes insurmountable comes across as underhanded (at best) or cowardice (at worst).

And powerful as Sylv might have been, that should have never been a reason to not challenge her. Hell, even Doomhammer, a run-of-the-mill warrior, might have killed freaking Gul'dan at any time, and only let him live because he was too soft at that moment.

Even before that it was established that she was stronger than either of them , at least when using magic. Cause she was able to fight on par with Malf when he literally just dropped a house of Saurfang and called it a day.

So even before the revelation it was clear she would just one shot anybody non-magical who would challenge her.

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Neither Saurfang nor Baine ever had the Horde bests interests at heart. They are traitors and the majority of the community hates them. They wanted to surrender and leave the war at bad terms. Which was proven correct when we see the post Bfa world in the books Exploring Azeroth.

And the fact Sylvans planned to destroy the Horde too, somehow eluded your eyes, ears and brain all that time since BfA?

[Super Dickmann]

Aka - BfA shouldnt have existed because writers entirely missed the memo and wrote themselves into a corner. And because whole premise was asinine, insulting to both factions and both fanbases and created an unsolvable dilemma that will now haunt the game forever.

Also yeah, they proven Daelin so right it physically hurts - Horde cannot be reasoned with, incapable of change and will only become more dangerous if left alone.

Quite obviously no one likes BFA, except the people who were cheering on its thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde and praised how wisely Blizzard added depth by turning everyone into copy-paste clones of each other, at least until SL switched track on that particular bit of wank and they were suddenly gripped by shock and horror at the realization that the writing had been shit for years.

The framing of Daelin and the Horde opposition are genuinely hilarious achievements in completely failing to communicate their intended message. It's hamhanded writing of a kind the game hadn't pulled off before or since.

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The majority of people hated them because they were afraid a few expacs after BfA we'd end up with a carebear expansion where the factions are at peace and everyone forgives eachother and the faction line is blurred to allow Horde and Alliance to play together.

Thankfully that never happened and those people back in BfA were dead wrong.

Luckily the people telling us about true noblesavage values were right and taking out everyone morally and culturally distinct from the Teletubbies didn't result in the disappearance of the last shreds of the faction's identity and their own favoured characters lounging on rocks in hell while being protected by Jaina. God forbid if that happened.

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I think I get where you're coming from, and I might even agree that some kind of reboot was needed after the major !@#$ups of BfA/SL. But DF feels too soft of a reboot, and for what I've seen it does an awful job at world building... Even Vanilla did a MUCH better job, even with all the technical and financial limitations of its time. If they wanted a reboot, then they should have gone with something drastic, such as e.g. Nipple Boi succeeding, partially at least, in his plans to reshape reality. But this timid, milquetoast excuse for a reboot that is DF fails at both accounts imo.

Being worse at worldbuilding than Vanilla is pretty easy, as it has the best of it. It basically has to create the entire Alliance out of whole cloth and in so doing creates the best version of it, short of completely cocking up the Night Elves which every subsequent expansion is more guilty of anyway. It also has to make the Darkspear and tauren distinct from orc mini-mes, give them their own lands and appeal and somehow get conflict going while populating an entire world. No expansion ever repeats it, with only Cataclysm close. Every other expansion save Cataclysm even has it much easier, since they only have to create one distinct land and use what Vanilla set up.

[VladlTutushkin]

Quite obviously no one likes BFA, except the people who were cheering on its thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde and praised how wisely Blizzard added depth by turning everyone into copy-paste clones of each other, at least until SL switched track on that particular bit of wank and they were suddenly gripped by shock and horror at the realization that the writing had been shit for years.

The framing of Daelin and the Horde opposition are genuinely hilarious achievements in completely failing to communicate their intended message. It's hamhanded writing of a kind the game hadn't pulled off before or since.

- - - Updated - - -



Luckily the people telling us about true noblesavage values were right and taking out everyone morally and culturally distinct from the Teletubbies didn't result in the disappearance of the last shreds of the faction's identity and their own favoured characters lounging on rocks in hell while being protected by Jaina. God forbid if that happened.

- - - Updated - - -



Being worse at worldbuilding than Vanilla is pretty easy, as it has the best of it. It basically has to create the entire Alliance out of whole cloth and in so doing creates the best version of it, short of completely cocking up the Night Elves which every subsequent expansion is more guilty of anyway. It also has to make the Darkspear and tauren distinct from orc mini-mes, give them their own lands and appeal and somehow get conflict going while populating an entire world. No expansion ever repeats it, with only Cataclysm close. Every other expansion save Cataclysm even has it much easier, since they only have to create one distinct land and use what Vanilla set up.

Imho to "fix" things at that point they would need to go on a length nobody in Blizzard is capable right now, in terms of writing "balls" or writing chops. Or even in terms of dedicated resources and time. So best they can offer is "look at pretty dragons and consooom" and thats it, basically like a... idk, a watery porridge, AV drip and some painkillers.

[Shadowferal]

Well, as I posted elsewhere, I would heartily volunteer my time...6 figure salary, full benefits pkg.. *cough* and rewrite the lore that would be coherent, consistent and clear. Of course if I was given the task of making the races fit into the classes, I can see some exceptions that might be more accurately said to be multi-classed...among so much else.

[guro-tchai]

Quite obviously no one likes BFA, except the people who were cheering on its thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde and praised how wisely Blizzard added depth by turning everyone into copy-paste clones of each other, at least until SL switched track on that particular bit of wank and they were suddenly gripped by shock and horror at the realization that the writing had been shit for years.

eh, i know you're talking about the main story, on which you're correct, but BfA overall, at least for me, had its redeeming moments.
i've always been playing on a PvE server as Alliance; the most sheepish demographic. with the introduction of warmode with its various features, and a substantial emotional push to try it (even if quite nonsensical), BfA opened up a new way to play.
i got to feel something new when i was hunting for the assassin in the 8.1 assault zone; when i met an orc in the middle of a road in Nazjatar as a newly-geared NE-dk - we eyed each other for a bit, just standing there, then somehow both of us put up racial flags from the Argent tournament, made a step forward, /roared and duelled to death (i got totally punished for picking the auto-CCtrinket as a PvP talent); when i found out that bears are actually OP in wPvP and even more so with corruption (imagine killing an enemy vDH flagkeep on WSG together with his personal hpala with a single twilight devastation. they didn't release spirits for a while. good times)
even though all of this was about a gameplay feature, it was a feature that naturally nudged many players to spontaneous RP-PvP - and with the focus on war, it made it emotionally rewarding, even if said rewarded emotion was usually a flavor of hate.

apart from that, the world was amazing. i still fondly remember Zuldazar and Drustvar. Boralus is the best city in the game i spent a couple hours just exploring - the amount of details, of environmental flavor is insane. the small stories were pretty good - i can't get one woman in southern Drustvar out of my mind. her husband's dead. her tiny patch of land, bearing nothing but mostly shriveled onion is overrun with giant porcupines, lizards and insects - yet she stands there nonetheless, defiant with her stupid broom, as if it could help even against the beasts. at the same time, her country's experiencing a Fall of Lordaeron-type event and her Union has just entered a total world war. she's still there - there's nothing else.
i've no idea why such things touch me, occam says i'm a tasteless pussy

also, i wasn't playing that actively during the first season, when there was a barrage of complaints at azerite armor. BoD was a great, innovative raid which was capable of evoking emotion (even if the operation itself is, again, nonsensical) when you're in a total war against the enemies in the raid.

re: cheering on thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde - who were these people? i genuinely don't remember because i never had any strong attachment to or involvement in these factions.

The framing of Daelin and the Horde opposition are genuinely hilarious achievements in completely failing to communicate their intended message. It's hamhanded writing of a kind the game hadn't pulled off before or since

like that ex-wc3 dev equating covid to the plague of undeath, and recording messages accusing people of being mentally ill when they disagree with him?

[Soon-TM]

re: cheering on thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde - who were these people? i genuinely don't remember because i never had any strong attachment to or involvement in these factions.

You will know them when you hear (or rather read) them. They usually RP as human paladins, and are almost universally fond of the Golden Boi and occasionally some of his satellites, more often than not the cow who got The Heart of the Horde™ award. They are oblivious to many of the nonsensical beats of the story in BfA, and attempt to engage in a more or less rational discussion with them usually gets you branded as a Sylvanas simp.

[Shadowferal]

*raises hand*

[VladlTutushkin]

eh, i know you're talking about the main story, on which you're correct, but BfA overall, at least for me, had its redeeming moments.
i've always been playing on a PvE server as Alliance; the most sheepish demographic. with the introduction of warmode with its various features, and a substantial emotional push to try it (even if quite nonsensical), BfA opened up a new way to play.
i got to feel something new when i was hunting for the assassin in the 8.1 assault zone; when i met an orc in the middle of a road in Nazjatar as a newly-geared NE-dk - we eyed each other for a bit, just standing there, then somehow both of us put up racial flags from the Argent tournament, made a step forward, /roared and duelled to death (i got totally punished for picking the auto-CCtrinket as a PvP talent); when i found out that bears are actually OP in wPvP and even more so with corruption (imagine killing an enemy vDH flagkeep on WSG together with his personal hpala with a single twilight devastation. they didn't release spirits for a while. good times)
even though all of this was about a gameplay feature, it was a feature that naturally nudged many players to spontaneous RP-PvP - and with the focus on war, it made it emotionally rewarding, even if said rewarded emotion was usually a flavor of hate.

apart from that, the world was amazing. i still fondly remember Zuldazar and Drustvar. Boralus is the best city in the game i spent a couple hours just exploring - the amount of details, of environmental flavor is insane. the small stories were pretty good - i can't get one woman in southern Drustvar out of my mind. her husband's dead. her tiny patch of land, bearing nothing but mostly shriveled onion is overrun with giant porcupines, lizards and insects - yet she stands there nonetheless, defiant with her stupid broom, as if it could help even against the beasts. at the same time, her country's experiencing a Fall of Lordaeron-type event and her Union has just entered a total world war. she's still there - there's nothing else.
i've no idea why such things touch me, occam says i'm a tasteless pussy

also, i wasn't playing that actively during the first season, when there was a barrage of complaints at azerite armor. BoD was a great, innovative raid which was capable of evoking emotion (even if the operation itself is, again, nonsensical) when you're in a total war against the enemies in the raid.

re: cheering on thorough destruction of the Forsaken and Horde - who were these people? i genuinely don't remember because i never had any strong attachment to or involvement in these factions.


like that ex-wc3 dev equating covid to the plague of undeath, and recording messages accusing people of being mentally ill when they disagree with him?

Eh. In fact post Teldrassil or rather when it became apparent we will be cucked again and have no real revenge i just gave up on PvP entirely. Why even try if we are already a designated loser?

[Piamonte]

Its just a small post about the unique “feel” WoW had for me, which i think a lot of people shared based on what i read here and on other forums. The feel that is now totally gone, and last time i had it was when i played GW2 for a while, but there it was still a different thing, even if similar.

So, WoW had that unique atmosphere to it, mix of nostalgia and adventure and the spirit of factional rivalry… Somehow even when they added new stuff the general feeling remained mostly undiluted, giving that WoW vibe without fail, even in Pandaria. Draenor began to sort of “lose” it, Legion had it but it began to gradually melt away, but since all else was good it wasnt obvious…

And then the big “crash and burn” began - with BfA being one huge shitfest of depression, hamfisted moralisation and overblown drama and edginess and gloom… And of course utter cuckoldry if you played Alliance.

SL and DF no longer even feel like WoW at all, SL being so disconnected you may as well call it another game and DF being too milquetoast and still disconnected from Azeroth, despite being on Azeroth.

So, any of you share that sense of fading soul/feel of WoW? When you began to notice it going away first? Or is it entirely a false assumption on my part?

All these types of thread can be answered the sale way:

It doesnt matter how much you try, wow Will never feel the same way it felt the first time you played.

[Soon-TM]

All these types of thread can be answered the sale way:

It doesnt matter how much you try, wow Will never feel the same way it felt the first time you played.

Implying that the issue is only on the beholder and that nothing in the game's narrative and storytelling has changed. Confirm/deny?

[Piamonte]

Implying that the issue is only on the beholder and that nothing in the game's narrative and storytelling has changed. Confirm/deny?

it doesnt matter what blizzard do, its a 19 years old game, what do you think?

[Super Dickmann]

eh, i know you're talking about the main story, on which you're correct, but BfA overall, at least for me, had its redeeming moments.
i've always been playing on a PvE server as Alliance; the most sheepish demographic. with the introduction of warmode with its various features, and a substantial emotional push to try it (even if quite nonsensical), BfA opened up a new way to play.

I'm speaking strictly story-wise. Back during the BFA and to a much lesser extent in SL and now, there was no shortage of posters going on about noblesavagery and how actually BFA was an entirely natural development and the Horde needed to learn its lesson so that it could better participate in cosmic expansions. The actual cosmic expansion and what's left of the Horde shut most of these people up, but this was pretty much the only section of the playerbase that meaningfully praised the BFA storyline and this entirely for the purpose it provided. I'm not judging them for partisanship of course, I'm a naked partisan myself, only for the fact that that sort of meta partisanship neuters the story at large as it invariably did.

As far as gameplay and mood goes, azerite armor deserves all the shit it got, but I only really dropped off by 8.3, which I barely played. What I will give BFA that hasn't been repeated before or since is the sheer amount of investment it mined off of its concept and the emotional weight it slung on. No story did it before hand and the fact that BFA was so wretched from beginning to end in terms of that story only drives home the amount of missed potential present. There was rarely as much commentary on story as there was during BFA, with as much investment layered in such utterly retarded proceedings. The fact that the vessel for that investment, namely the factions, were also the parts that it effectively eliminated speaks a lot about its failure. War Mode was great in BFA, but it has been shit since and a big part of that is mood.

Speaking of the zones, I don't generally consider that a saving grace since zones generally always have at least a few things going for them. I will say that Alliance got a much better shake of it than Horde. For the last hurrah of Alliance and Horde it was a mistake to have the Horde's greatest visual signifier be the Zandalari, who prior were not part of the faction war, while the principal Horde races were mostly in individual quests or relegated to questlines. The Zandalari as a piece of world building were very well executed and I don't even mind Talanji, but where Jaina and Kul Tiras directly hearken back to the meat of the Alliance the Zandalari are off-base and resonate the most with a part of the Horde that lost its principal character and the one most related to the Zandalari.

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Imho to "fix" things at that point they would need to go on a length nobody in Blizzard is capable right now, in terms of writing "balls" or writing chops. Or even in terms of dedicated resources and time. So best they can offer is "look at pretty dragons and consooom" and thats it, basically like a... idk, a watery porridge, AV drip and some painkillers.

DF works best if you consider it a spin-off in the same setting, which it functionally is. For what it is, it's fine, but it's an overcorrection to the surface of BFA and SL while doubling down on the substance. Though while BFA and SL were stories about genocide and depersonalization in the torture in hell carrying the values of the teletubbies, DF has the stylings of the Teletubbies while being infinitesmally more sophisticated since at least some people there acknowledge that you can't just forgive and be buddies with everyone.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'm speaking strictly story-wise. Back during the BFA and to a much lesser extent in SL and now, there was no shortage of posters going on about noblesavagery and how actually BFA was an entirely natural development and the Horde needed to learn its lesson so that it could better participate in cosmic expansions. The actual cosmic expansion and what's left of the Horde shut most of these people up, but this was pretty much the only section of the playerbase that meaningfully praised the BFA storyline and this entirely for the purpose it provided. I'm not judging them for partisanship of course, I'm a naked partisan myself, only for the fact that that sort of meta partisanship neuters the story at large as it invariably did.

As far as gameplay and mood goes, azerite armor deserves all the shit it got, but I only really dropped off by 8.3, which I barely played. What I will give BFA that hasn't been repeated before or since is the sheer amount of investment it mined off of its concept and the emotional weight it slung on. No story did it before hand and the fact that BFA was so wretched from beginning to end in terms of that story only drives home the amount of missed potential present. There was rarely as much commentary on story as there was during BFA, with as much investment layered in such utterly retarded proceedings. The fact that the vessel for that investment, namely the factions, were also the parts that it effectively eliminated speaks a lot about its failure. War Mode was great in BFA, but it has been shit since and a big part of that is mood.

Speaking of the zones, I don't generally consider that a saving grace since zones generally always have at least a few things going for them. I will say that Alliance got a much better shake of it than Horde. For the last hurrah of Alliance and Horde it was a mistake to have the Horde's greatest visual signifier be the Zandalari, who prior were not part of the faction war, while the principal Horde races were mostly in individual quests or relegated to questlines. The Zandalari as a piece of world building were very well executed and I don't even mind Talanji, but where Jaina and Kul Tiras directly hearken back to the meat of the Alliance the Zandalari are off-base and resonate the most with a part of the Horde that lost its principal character and the one most related to the Zandalari.

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DF works best if you consider it a spin-off in the same setting, which it functionally is. For what it is, it's fine, but it's an overcorrection to the surface of BFA and SL while doubling down on the substance. Though while BFA and SL were stories about genocide and depersonalization in the torture in hell carrying the values of the teletubbies, DF has the stylings of the Teletubbies while being infinitesmally more sophisticated since at least some people there acknowledge that you can't just forgive and be buddies with everyone.

Eh, i still consider how Alliance acted by the end of the Fourth War and how night elves (didnt) react to it as a betrayal and lack of reaction to said betrayal. Even IF they cant/dont want to fight the Horde right now having Alliance leaders actually discuss it in a way that "we cant restart the war with them right now, but we have other ways..." instead of "well golly gee, guess we give this peace another go haha!" would be infinitely better and enhanced the plot without changing anything.

[Super Dickmann]

Eh, i still consider how Alliance acted by the end of the Fourth War and how night elves (didnt) react to it as a betrayal and lack of reaction to said betrayal. Even IF they cant/dont want to fight the Horde right now having Alliance leaders actually discuss it in a way that "we cant restart the war with them right now, but we have other ways..." instead of "well golly gee, guess we give this peace another go haha!" would be infinitely better and enhanced the plot without changing anything.

Agreed, but as said this a million times before, will say it a million in the future, but the easiest solution will always be faction collapse rather than a faction merge. Even if you change nothing else about that carfire of a story, if you have Anduin give his eulogy and the war ends due to incapacity as N'zoth rises, having all the racial leaders just walk out and do their thing would instantly accomplish the same. Ditto the Horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

Agreed, but as said this a million times before, will say it a million in the future, but the easiest solution will always be faction collapse rather than a faction merge. Even if you change nothing else about that carfire of a story, if you have Anduin give his eulogy and the war ends due to incapacity as N'zoth rises, having all the racial leaders just walk out and do their thing would instantly accomplish the same. Ditto the Horde.

Or have Alliance show that they at least wont let the Horde off the hook and if not the open war than covert black ops will continue to undermine the whole structure. Or fucken have someone throw Anduin off the flight of stairs, idk. Anything more than this bullshit.