The science of new WoW classes

[Teriz]

not by a mile...

which have absolutely nothing to do with the pattern or any of your "science"?

It means that Blizzard is quite methodical when deciding the next class. It isn’t as flippant a decision as you’re implying.

they are lore important characters in wow, have never been hero characters...
unless by hero character you mean literaly any non-villanous character, in which case a stormwind guard is a hero character...

It means they drive the lore at a very high level, and can drive it enough to potentially have an expansion built around them. You can’t build an expansion around a Stormwind Guard.

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also dracthyr are no more tied to Alexstrasza than to random whelp in onyxias lair...
compared to ties of DK to LK or DH to Ilidan its EXTREMELY negligible...

Uh the mastery for their healing spec is called Life-Binder. Who do you think that came from? So I would say they’re ties to Alexstraza are quite a bit closer than to a random whelp in a dungeon.

Also DKs and DHs would be closer to those hero characters because those are the only heroes they were tied to (though DKs pulled a bit from Kel’thuzad). Evokers are tied to several draconic heroes stretched across multiple dragonflights. Of course their connection to a single character wouldn’t be as intense as those other classes.

[Vaedan]

This is a good point. I do think we’re heading towards the end of new classes being introduced. There simply isn’t many concepts left.

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Maybe. The thing is Azjol Nerub can be used as the basis for an old gods expansion, since it gives us a setting, a potential new race/class, and a specific old god to fight. Kind of like how Dragon Isles is being used as a setting for elemental and Titan forces going against each other.

[COLOR="#417394"]
Blizzard stating that Zaralek Caverns will lead to more underground content, and Nerubian
artifacts found in Zaralek talking about a queen Moaj’arak.

I believe they said Zaralek is their experiment in new tech which allows connect underground and surface zones without having to use loading screens, like in Deepholm. That would mean they can build more interesting underground zones, but it does need to mean that we will get underground expansion.

Plus during Cataclysm, they used basicaly the same claim about Vashj'ir being testing for undersea zones, and yet we did not get any underwater zone (even Nazjatar was not really underwater) or even dedicated underwater expansion.

That being said, I can't say we won't see Azjol'nerub again, but I don't think it's extra likely as whole expansion. Main patch zone is possible, I guess.

[Teriz]

I believe they said Zaralek is their experiment in new tech which allows connect underground and surface zones without having to use loading screens, like in Deepholm. That would mean they can build more interesting underground zones, but it does need to mean that we will get underground expansion.

Plus during Cataclysm, they used basicaly the same claim about Vashj'ir being testing for undersea zones, and yet we did not get any underwater zone (even Nazjatar was not really underwater) or even dedicated underwater expansion.

That being said, I can't say we won't see Azjol'nerub again, but I don't think it's extra likely as whole expansion. Main patch zone is possible, I guess.

TBF Vash’jir was hated, and by nature of being underwater couldn’t really be improved upon. Most players seem to be enjoying Zalarek. That bodes well for either Azjol Nerub or Undermine.

In all honesty, Undermine has the higher chance of inclusion as the underground continent. It was originally supposed to be in vanilla (like dragon isles) and Blizzard has expressed interest in Goblins returning there in the future.

Azjol Nerub is more likely to be a raid than an expansion. Possibly a raid during the Undermine expansion. We’ll see.

[Vaedan]

Well you have Loa and Voodoo to supplement the Ranged weapons. Not sure why you're cherry picking everything individually and arguing that everything is covered. Like I said, Nazeebo and Hearthstone also provide plenty of inspiration to draw from.

And yes, BFA would have been a good expansion theme but that followed too close after Legion. Much like how Demon Hunters missed a window with TBC but still managed to grt made later on with Legion. We still have plenty of Troll culture and Loa lore to explore, don't you think?



It worked for Monks. Was there ever a problem of non Pandarens convoking August Celestials and tapping into the Mists of Shaohao? Monk is pretty deeply Pandaren centric.

All we need is a neutral Troll organization to open relations to Alliance, and we practically had that with Cataclysm and the Loa urging us to take on the Zandalari. The Loa were speaking directly to the Alliance.

Hell with Bwonsamedi, Loa are still talking to Alliance. You don't need to be a Troll to commune with them, while a new class tapping into Troll culture would help deepen a connection to them.


Ideally I would have different races be able to tap into their own Wild Gods and newly discovered Loa. But that's a concerted effort and well beyond what's necessary for a basic playable class concept.

Honestly, I always thought it would be cool to have Shadow Hunters on Horde and Priestess of the Moon on the Alliance, with both being the same class, with different skin.

I know it is much to ask, they would need to put double resources to develop that, but now that would be interesting.

[loras]

Well no, because the ETC also appears in WoW and we have multiple HotS abilities showing up in WoW on a consistent basis. Exuberance, Chrono Loop, Wailing Arrow, and The Hunt being the latest examples.



Borrowed heavily? Disintegrate comes from Kalecgos and the Blue Dragons;



They've been doing that ability for quite some time.

As for Rastakhan's Rumble, I'm all for deeper troll lore, however it is doubtful that we will get a troll-based expansion granting us a new troll race, and a troll based class. Thats a rather tall order.




Well no, because with the Crypt Lord we have a potential new race: Nerubians, a potential new class: Crypt Lords, and a potential expansion: Azjol Nerub/Spider Kingdom.

I will say that the ETC is far more of a long shot, but even that has more basis than what you're suggesting here; a broad class with no foundation, little lore, and bringing nothing to the table that can't be done by existing classes.

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TBF, I'm using the scientific method.

And yes, I would say being humanoid is a requirement due to armor and weapon concerns.

Ehh, i tend to be more strict with the requirements when i call stuff of my own scientific, and even then i usually refrain from calling it scientific due to the connotations that come with it in common discourse.
It's important to be aware about the context for which you're writing after all.

Still if you're happy with the way you're currently conversing you are of course free to continue as you do, but it seems like it would be very annoying to me to need to revisit the same thing so often because you and your counterparts have differing/ambiguous understandings of what you mean with your communication.

Perhaps a bit rude to ask, but since your approach to this seems rather familiar to me i feel compelled to ask: Are you (lightly) autistic or otherwise neurodiverse?
I am rather familiar with such matters, and, well, it seems to trigger recognition. No ill intents at all of course, do not feel compelled to answer.

[Ielenia]

And Monks don’t need a glyph.

It doesn't matter. The point is that it's not a "unique mechanic".

It isn’t. There’s a vast difference between having an ability that allows you to enchant a weapon and having to gather or purchase items that enchant your weapon. For starters, the DKs ability scales with the DKs level, the item does not.

There is literally zero difference. You work them in the exact same way. The fact of the matter is that the runeforge enchants are not a new mechanic in the game.

Uh, a class having all tank/dps specs, was very unique,

The mechanic was not unique. It already existed in the druid class. Again: copying it to all the class' specs doesn't make the mechanic unique in any way, shape or form.

then yeah sure, it’s the exact same thing.

I never said "they're the same thing". I never argued that, this is just your strawman. I simply said that those mechanics are not unique.

So am I.

Except your argument that the LK is there is because of the playable class.

Uh, a Dracthyr Evoker can resemble Alexstraza as much as a DK can resemble Arthas, a Monk can resemble Chen, and a DH can resemble Illidan. That’s the point.

This is demonstrably false. I can be a night elf demon hunter, and Illidan is a night elf demon hunter. I can be a pandaren monk, and Chen is a pandaren monk. I can make a human death knight, and Arthas is a human death knight.

I cannot make a female dracthyr with high/blood elf visage, and Alexstrasza is a dragon with a high/blood elf visage. Similarly, I cannot make a male dracthyr with a human visage, and Wrathion is a dragon with a human visage. Not to mention I cannot even come close to emulating Chromie or Ysera.

[Mecheon]

I find the generic purple cthulu tentacle aesthetic of the old gods to be very bland. Feels like it could be from many other fantasy IPs. Warlocks, Death Knights, and Demon Hunters are iconic because they are unique to Warcraft. Green and black fel fire and demons, and icy blue zombies. If an old god class had to be added, it would definitely have to be based off of the Sha given their unique aesthetic of being gooey, smokey/liquidy black and white monsters designed like Asian woodblock art. But that could also work as a 4th monk spec.

Oh, yeah, just purple and tentacles is a bit generic, hence why expanding it to all three so you've got chitin, claws, eyeballs and scythes, with C'thun and his overall tan aesthetic, and mouths, ooze and clubs (well, club-tentacles) with good ol' azure Yogg-Saron. While Sha def a good aesthetic, each of the three Old Gods we've fought had their own specific Vibe to them that'd be fun to see in a player class. Also technically would give us a smidge of Nightmare with the red and black, though that is the druid's domain

Honestly I just want a nasty healer, and with evokers putting support specs back on the table, could be a fun way to support your allies. just, turn 'em into horrid abominations. Go full Rik'kal on your allies. it'll be fiiiiine. (i will also accept this aesthetic under alchemist/chemist/apothecary as a class)

[Triceron]

Honestly, I always thought it would be cool to have Shadow Hunters on Horde and Priestess of the Moon on the Alliance, with both being the same class, with different skin.

I know it is much to ask, they would need to put double resources to develop that, but now that would be interesting.

If something like this were possible, I'd consider it. Seems too pie-in-the-sky though, considering all classes seem to point st homogenizing lore to make them fit rsther than making room for divergence

But of Class Skins became a thing, I could definitely see Sentinels and other races having their own class variation of a phys-ranged Weapon Thrower class like Shadow Hunter.

[Teriz]

It doesn't matter. The point is that it's not a "unique mechanic".

I think I've established a unique mechanic for each of these classes. No need to quibble about other mechanics that you find questionable.

This is demonstrably false. I can be a night elf demon hunter, and Illidan is a night elf demon hunter. I can be a pandaren monk, and Chen is a pandaren monk. I can make a human death knight, and Arthas is a human death knight.

I cannot make a female dracthyr with high/blood elf visage, and Alexstrasza is a dragon with a high/blood elf visage. Similarly, I cannot make a male dracthyr with a human visage, and Wrathion is a dragon with a human visage. Not to mention I cannot even come close to emulating Chromie or Ysera.

To be fair, Alexstraza has draconic eyes, massive horns on her head, and sharp teeth. She's clearly not a pure high/blood elf visage since high elves don't have those features. Also Wrathion has burning red eyes, sharp teeth, and pointy ears. Those are not human features. Interestingly, Dracthyr can recreate the majority of those features.

As for Ysera;



Looks pretty close.

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Oh, yeah, just purple and tentacles is a bit generic, hence why expanding it to all three so you've got chitin, claws, eyeballs and scythes, with C'thun and his overall tan aesthetic, and mouths, ooze and clubs (well, club-tentacles) with good ol' azure Yogg-Saron. While Sha def a good aesthetic, each of the three Old Gods we've fought had their own specific Vibe to them that'd be fun to see in a player class. Also technically would give us a smidge of Nightmare with the red and black, though that is the druid's domain

Wouldn't this concept be better served under Shadow Priests?

[Teriz]

I wouldn't say Gazlowe is major enough to show up on a WoW cover; dude doesn't even have a unique model. Mekkatorque on the other hand? Sure.

In general I can't imagine we won't see Tinker down the line, even if I would prefer a Bard class, its a perfect fit especially if we're going to Undermine at some point which I'm sure we will.

I wouldn't be surprised if both Gazlowe and Mekkatorque are on the cover, both in mech suits. Conversely, Gallywix could show up on the cover solo as well, since he is also a Tinker, and would likely be one of the big bads.

The Evoker and its Augmentation spec does have some pretty interesting implications when it comes to Bards though.

Previously people have said we would never get any kind of support spec because that would make them mandatory in raids, yet we got the Augmentation spec, a DPS/support hybrid.

The new way Evokers cast their spells is also really interesting when it comes to Bards because if they are ever implemented we might see them casting spells by playing and combining different chords, like Zither the bard in Dragon Age Inquisition multiplayer.

The killer of Bards is the sheer lack of lore. No expansion concept fits them, and outside of ETC, there really is no hero character to attach to them.

Tinkers have Gazlowe, Mekkatorque, and Gallywix, along with Undermine for the expansion.

Bards have ETC and............ And Bard fans don't want a class based on ETC.

Hence the conundrum.

[Ielenia]

I think I've established a unique mechanic for each of these classes.

You think wrong.

To be fair, Alexstraza has draconic eyes, massive horns on her head, and sharp teeth. She's clearly not a pure high/blood elf visage since high elves don't have those features.

Irrelevant. The point is that her overall in-game model is of a female blood/high elf, something the female dracthyr cannot reproduce because their visage form is of a female human.

Also Wrathion has burning red eyes, sharp teeth, and pointy ears. Those are not human features.

Again, irrelevant, because his overall in-game model is of a male human, something the male dracthyr cannot reproduce because their visage form is of a male blood/high elf.

Interestingly, Dracthyr can recreate the majority of those features.

Except the most important part: the overall model. The body shape. That's like saying a female vulpera looks like the Lich King because it has the blue glowing eyes and the reverb voice.

As for Ysera;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxHNVuI1rA

Looks pretty close.

As close as a vulpera DK looks like the Lich King. Merithra isn't human. Not to mention I specifically mentioned Ysera. Both are night elves.

[Triceron]

You would unfortunately have to do some serious reaching to justify Bards.

MAYBE with the historical significance of sea shanties they might make sense in a south seas/sailing expansion or MAYBE if Blizzard ever decides to do something about the Darkmoon Faire's hinted at ties to the void they might show up but that's pretty much it as far as I can tell.

There's bits and pieces in the game and lore that doesn't completely rule them out, even if the chances of them being implemented is super low.

Spellcasters are able to cast spells with many different instruments for instance; anything from staves to daggers to wands, orbs, swords.. So why not musical instruments?

Banal as it might be music and musicians also exist in the world but.. Yeah.

The entire Warsong clan is built around using music in combat. The clan is literally named for this. They just never really pushed the music angle and had them portrayed as run-of-the-mill berserkers, otherwise the entire clan is supposed to be devoted to War chants and wardrumming. We even have the Kodo Rider unit in WC3 to portray this.

Then you have stuff like the Windrunner quest where you see the memory of Lirath playing music for his sisters. Alleria had a Flute item in WC3, and Sylvanas sings the Lament of the Highborne. They have a very deep connection to music. Elf culture in general is steeped in music and the arts.

And WC3 had a host of Instrument items that provided aura buffs. Lion Horn of Stormwind, Scourge Bone Chimes, Janggo of Endurance, Alleria's Flute of Accuracy and Legion Doom-horn to name a few.


There's plenty of music lore to tap into. You just have to know where to look for it.

[Triceron]

But that's the thing; you have to know where to look for it.

Dragons, Death Knights and Demon Hunters have always been front and center of WoW, right there smack dab in the middle, so a class based on them wasn't left field.

What about Monks? Martial arts was out of left field and Pandaren came from an April Fools concept. That's exactly where we stand with Bards and Tinkers. All 3 concepts derive from April Fools and Easter eggs, and all are still a part of Warcraft's more whimsical side.

And we're delving into the B-tier/C-tier class concepts moving forward. All the major ones have been covered (or are partially represented by an existing class).

Monks and Pandaria were sorta left field but even then it was at least a WC3 hero class that aided a major lore character.

... Wardrummers were practically the first thing you ever see in the original Warcraft 3 cinematic. How many units or heroes actually make it their way into a cinematic, let alone have a close up shot of them doing a drum solo?

[Triceron]

Kung fu wasn't out of left field considering that Chen Stormstout wore a rice hat, some pseudo asian garb and was pretty blatantly based on the Hong Kong drunken master films.

Why would music be any different? It's been ever-present part of Warcraft since the Warsong clan.

WC2 Hellscream literally belted out lines from famous songs. Even now, the latest Hearthstone expansion is a Music-centric one.

[Lodreh]

...Thank you for reading.

What happened to your class concepts that were in your signature... I enjoyed reading through those.

[Teriz]

You think wrong.

So now you're arguing that the Runic system, Brewing, and Double Jump weren't unique mechanics?

Irrelevant. The point is that her overall in-game model is of a female blood/high elf, something the female dracthyr cannot reproduce because their visage form is of a female human.

Again, irrelevant, because his overall in-game model is of a male human, something the male dracthyr cannot reproduce because their visage form is of a male blood/high elf.

But their overall in-game models aren't human or blood elf either, since neither race has the features they possess. Also Wrathion's model uses blood elf animations;

Notably, his second human form depiction uses the blood elf male animations instead of the human male ones as his previous incarnation did.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Wrathion

So yeah, who cares? The point is that the Dracthyr are closer to Wrathion and Alexstraza's models than Elves and humans are. That said, you're clearly holding Dracthyr to a higher standard for obvious reasons.

Except the most important part: the overall model. The body shape. That's like saying a female vulpera looks like the Lich King because it has the blue glowing eyes and the reverb voice.

As close as a vulpera DK looks like the Lich King.

That's one hell of straw-man.

Merithra isn't human. Not to mention I specifically mentioned Ysera. Both are night elves.

It's actually Ysera. The poster got the model mixed up.

Dracthyr aren't human either, which is why they have draconic eyes and massive horns sticking out of their head.

You know who else has draconic eyes and horns sticking out of their heads? Ysera and Alexstraza.

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What happened to your class concepts that were in your signature... I enjoyed reading through those.

Thanks! I'll post them back up at the end of the month. Here's my latest one;
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...acthyr-Evokers

[Triceron]

Grommash and the Warsong are not bards; they are warriors first and "musicians" second, in fact they are probably even warriors first, wolf riders second and "musicians" third.

They're still musicians. Doesn't change that one bit, does it?

Bards would have the same relation to Hellscream as Evokers do to the Dragon Aspects. The Aspects aren't Evokers, but they still provide plenty of lore and theme for the new class. Hellscream would offer the same through the Warsong legacy, and however Blizzard would want to expand on the lore and gameplay.

I could use your same argument about Brewmasters before Pandaria. Did they use any martial arts? Kung fu kicks or punches? Use any stances? Nope. They whacked things with a stick and keg. That's a Warrior first. Next all their abilities are alcohol themed. Drunkard second. Martial arts? Third at best. It wasn't until the WoW Monk Class that Martial Arts was made more prominent. There was literally ZERO Martial Arts in the original concept; only implied through a 'rice hat' so you say.

You're comparing a minor part of the culture of one of many orc clans with a character that was instrumental in the orcs settling where they still live to this day.

Instrumental?

You realize Chen was an optional hero in the campaign right? Like, you could literally do Rexxar's campaign without recruiting him. He was only playable if you did his sidequest.

He wasn't even officially in the lore until MoP canonized his participation in the Founding of Orgrimmar.


If a single expansion that introduced a new class can change your entire perception of Chen from being an easter egg optional hero in the Campaign who was borderline non-canonical into being instrumental to the Orcs settling, then really there's no excuse for any Music themes having greater prominence in the future through the same presentation.

[Polybius]

They'll add whatever sells. WoW is entertainment, but it's business first. They've been experimenting with Trading Post and Evoker to expand the game. They've already used up most of the RTS, and it was made clear in Vanilla they wanted the world to grow.

It's all fair game until a pedantic roleplayer wants others to play by their rules.

[Teriz]

They're still musicians. Doesn't change that one bit, does it?

I could say the same about Brewmasters before Pandaria. Did they use any martial arts? Kung fu kicks or punches? Use any stances? Nope. They whacked things with a stick and keg. That's a Warrior first. Next all their abilities are alcohol themed. Drunkard second. Martial arts? Third at best. It wasn't until the WoW Monk Class that Martial Arts was made more prominent. There was literally ZERO Martial Arts in the original concept; only implied through a 'rice hat' so you say.

TBF, the Brewmaster class in the TTRPG was a martial artist and had martial arts abilities. The TTRPG was canon up until MoP’s release, and Blizzard clearly pulled concepts from it (they still do).

[Ielenia]

Brewing

It's not a unique mechanic. It's literally the warlock's "Create Healthstone" with a different graphic.

and Double Jump weren't unique mechanics?

Jumping is a unique mechanic?

Listen: stagger is a unique mechanic. Brewing? Double jumping? Those weren't new mechanics.

But their overall in-game models aren't human or blood elf either

Irrelevant. Their overall body shape and silhouette are of humans and blood/high elves, and that is the point. Alextrasza looks like a blood elf. We cannot replicate that form with the dracthyr. Wrathion looks like a human. The dracthyr cannot replicate that form.

So yeah, who cares?

You should, considering you're one that kept harping on "I want to look like Wrathion and Alexstrasza" but you can't do either right now.

The point is that the Dracthyr are closer to Wrathion and Alexstraza's models than Elves and humans are.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

That's one hell of straw-man.

Except it's not? You're the one saying that the way you look as a dracthyr doesn't matter as long as you got the dragon horns.

It's actually Ysera. The poster got the model mixed up.

Look at that. As similar as a vulpera is to a human.

Dracthyr aren't human either,

Speaking of strawman, this is an actual strawman, since I never said "dracthyr are human". I simply pointed out that the visage for female dracthyr use the female model.