An insight on Bitcoin

[Endus]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/currency.asp : "The terms money and currency are often thought to mean the same thing." You could replace what I've said with the word money if you like to play on words. A currency is a type of money, and one important function of money is store of value. Whatever monetary system venezuela uses, its value crashed yet the country continued producing value, so that value isn't based off that, that was my first point.

This doesn't change or correct anything I said. Baffling.

Forcing people to spend their money, consume, and gamble with it on markets, while keeping wealthy people wealthy by having them benefiting from assets price climbing up due to the continuous devaluation of money isn't what I consider to be healthy. I'm just observing this inflationary system and I dislike what I see.

Nothing you've described is inherent to an inflationary system, and indeed, would become significantly worse in a deflationary one. Wealthy people can become increasingly wealthy with zero risk just by not spending money in a deflationary economy, while workers are "forced" to spend money by virtue of needing to pay rent and so forth. Inflation doesn't create additional value, because again, value is not inherent to currency. Your asset may grow in "value" in terms of actual dollar amount, but not in appreciable "real value" just by virtue of inflation; those later dollars it's valued at a higher total at are worth less than the earlier calculation. A home worth $1 million before 10% inflation, and worth $1.1m after that inflation, has not actually increased in value. Whereas a hoard of $1m dollars in a vault, after 10% deflation, is worth 10% more in terms of tradeable value relative to everything else.

At the very least there should be a message somewhere, stating "Careful, we are devaluing the value of your savings, so you can't keep it for too long". Like on those cigarettes pack. Why doesn't that happen? Many people aren't even aware of that devaluation.

That's bullshit. Inflation's incredibly well understood, broadly speaking. It's common parlance. People might not understand all the complexities, but they get the gist.

Also, the people you're supposedly concerned about, the workers struggling to make ends meet, don't have savings in the first place. And those in the middle class and above who might, putting money into investments rather than a box under your mattress is standard practice. And investing means that money is earning returns, and that generally more than offsets inflation, while allowing that money to contribute to further economic activity, which money in a box does not do.

I can decide for myself what I consider to be a good or a bad currency, same for everyone.

And? Crypto isn't an actual currency, despite the nomenclature. That's not up to personal opinion.

For me there's just too many examples showing that the value of things is subjective. If something is deemed worthless by someone, or if they think that thing will lose its value, they will probably want to sell it for something that has value to them. Regardless my point was that countries cannot guarantee the value of their money/currencies, because if that was true you would never see them going to zero.

In the context you're talking about, the very concept of "value" in and of itself is inherently subjective. Nothing you're talking about could ever possibly change that.

A cryptocurrency can be real money assuming it's more widely used and volatility lowers as a result (which would be the consequence of many things, such as trust into that system). I wouldn't say it's money right now, but it can be if what I've said happens.

Volatility doesn't come from how widely the currency is used. Cryptocurrencies are fundamentally designed to be speculative tools, not functional currencies. Sorry you bought into the MLM scheme without understand what it was, but that's what all cryptocurrencies fundamentally are. They're never going to become "real" currency. They aren't meant to, and never have been. And there's essentially zero interest in them as such outside their own community. They provide no advantages, suffer all the same vulnerabilities you're complaining about, and bring in a host of further issues with them if you try.

You can keep defending your system if you like, that won't change reality, which is that inflation dilutes the value of money, until it approaches zero. Building a money ultimately worth zero doesn't sound like a good plan.[/QUOTE]

[Draco-Onis]

See, this is a divine example of why I don't actually attempt to engage in thoughtful comments on this board. I've already had to write effectively the same post twice. In order to actually write a response to this post, I'd have to write the same post a third time.

The dollar is not based on faith in the government. Faith in the government plays a role, but it is not exclusive. Faith is the only thing you have for coins. "Dollars" have value based on yes, faith, speculation, stability (all qualities they share with coins) but also on real representation of something that exists and is quantifiable. The time, labor and production and if nothing else, the raw mineral value of a nation.
There are no currencies currently in use that represent defunct nations. You cryptobros need to understand that a government is not the same as a nation, if you're going to counter me by saying the government of XYZ highly potent nation has fallen and was replaced, but still using the same currency is just demonstrative of little you actually understand about currency.
"Digital currencies" and "crypto currencies" are not the same thing. And crypto, nor physical paper money, will protect you from the government, as numerous posts citing news articles on the subject show.

You keep asking the same questions, making the same statement and ignoring what I actually wrote because y'all just don't get it.

Anyway there are now three posts on the subject by me alone. If you experience further confusion, you're welcome to reread them. I didn't spend years learning how economies work so that some kid with a digital picture of a dog can tell me I'm wrong.

You spend all this time learning about how economies work but you don't understand what the F in FIAT stand for? you have faith that your time, labor, production and everything is stored in that piece of paper because you have faith that your country and everything on it is not going to burn to the ground. That Faith is higher because the odds of that happening are smaller than the magic beans that this new coin is based off on.

[Edge-]

You spend all this time learning about how economies work but you don't understand what the F in FIAT stand for?

Fiat is not an acronym though, so the "F" doesn't stand for anything.

[crewskater]

That's literally what he's saying. That's the poin.



No, crypto does a fantastic job of making itself worthless without needing something like the complete collapse of a nation. It happens on the regular.

Finite coins doesn't mean anything other than you've set up a longterm problem where in order to keep up with a growing population that needs money to buy things, you need to divide the coin into smaller and smaller fractionals. Which is the exact same thing as making the money printer go brrrrrrrrrrr.

Something being finite in nature doesn't mean it inherently has value/more value. There are a finite number of Pogs in the world. That doesn't mean that they're suddenly very valuable or that anyone will accept them in exchange for goods or services.

A society collapsing is far more likely than crypto to go away or collapsing. For that to happen, the internet needs to go down for the entire world. We are talking a cataclysmic event. If the US collapses, crypto is still here to stay but you can't say the same for the dollar.

[Draco-Onis]

The backing of the US government involves more than just "faith".

And no; the Pokemon card doesn't have "more value". It has only a tenuous cultural value. If nobody gave a shit about Pokemon cards, its value would be equivalent to the amount of cardboard it represents. The same is not true of the dollar, or any fiat currency.

Most people have no idea how economics work nor the ongoing risks of several markets they have faith that things will work out. If it was more than faith currencies wouldn't experience interest risks and fluctuations based on major events.

There's nothing to gain. Currency in general's been digital for decades. I can't remember the last time I used actual, physical cash, and whenever I did, it was for one of two things; outdated vending machines (new ones take cards), or flea markets (and increasingly there they take credit/debit).

What possible benefit could cryptocurrency bring for my daily life? No one's ever answered that question with anything meaningful.

It has nothing to do to adding to your daily life it's about the only currency that matters in the modern age data, behavioral controls and greater corporate profits. That's the reason governments are considering implementing digital currencies though I am sure it will be sold due to convenience and to fight fraud. The irony of this should not be lost on crypto fanatics that this technology offers a lot of control for governments.

[crewskater]

This just isn't true. Currency retains value as long as people consider it to have that value. It may lose the backing of a country, but that's not the same thing. It may have as little backing as cryptocurrency (meaning none whatsoever) and still have some value. Y'know, like crypto. It's just no longer being managed and this may lead its value to be wildly variable and inconsistent, like crypto.

Weird that you try and argue those are weaknesses for currency, but positives for crypto.

And no; the US dollar is not "infinite". Stop pushing nonsense. Nor does the limited number of cryptocurrency "coins" give them any inherent value whatsoever; plenty of coins have lost literally all value despite still being limited in number.

China wouldn't consider the dollar valuable if the government collapses. If you're saying the US dollar isn't infinite, can you tell me how much is in circulation right now?

[Draco-Onis]

Fiat is not an acronym though, so the "F" doesn't stand for anything.

That's the modern interpretation the meaning of it is even worse it basically means wishing things into reality.

[Edge-]

A society collapsing is far more likely than crypto to go away or collapsing.

That's a bad comparison.

A country is comparable to a new crypto. We have new coins failing on the daily.

It's rare for nations to collapse.

For that to happen, the internet needs to go down for the entire world. We are talking a cataclysmic event. If the US collapses, crypto is still here to stay but you can't say the same for the dollar.

Thanks for highlighting one of the flaws of crypto: It only works where there's internet and power.

If the US economy collapses, crypto will still largely be worthless to anyone outside the crypto circle as it is today.

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That's the modern interpretation the meaning of it is even worse it basically means wishing things into reality.

It's supposedly Latin for "it shall be" or "let it be done", which isn't a wish really. Where is this modern interpretation coming from? This is literally the first I've ever heard of this.

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China wouldn't consider the dollar valuable if the government collapses. If you're saying the US dollar isn't infinite, can you tell me how much is in circulation right now?

In terms of notes? The Fed tracks that - https://www.federalreserve.gov/payme...circvolume.htm

There you go.

If you want to include all currency including "digital" (credit card etc.) we have that too - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CURRCIR

Around $2.3T

[Draco-Onis]

It's supposedly Latin for "it shall be" or "let it be done", which isn't a wish really. Where is this modern interpretation coming from? This is literally the first I've ever heard of this.

Let it be done is wishing something to just happen. I am surprised you never heard it since I have heard around for a while even before crypto currencies. I am glad to admit that I am wrong if not a lot of people have heard it.

[Endus]

Most people have no idea how economics work nor the ongoing risks of several markets they have faith that things will work out. If it was more than faith currencies wouldn't experience interest risks and fluctuations based on major events.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the dollar. You're making shit up.

It has nothing to do to adding to your daily life it's about the only currency that matters in the modern age data, behavioral controls and greater corporate profits. That's the reason governments are considering implementing digital currencies though I am sure it will be sold due to convenience and to fight fraud. The irony of this should not be lost on crypto fanatics that this technology offers a lot of control for governments.

Again, "digital currency" is a nonsense phrase. Currencies are already digital. If you can get paid by direct deposit and pay for things with a card, it's because your currency's digital.

As for the rest, none of that makes sense and crypto wouldn't improve it anyway.

China wouldn't consider the dollar valuable if the government collapses. If you're saying the US dollar isn't infinite, can you tell me how much is in circulation right now?

Yep.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/relea...nt/default.htm

Would really help if you bothered to Google shit before asking silly questions.

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Let it be done is wishing something to just happen.

No, it's having the authority to state that it is true.

Laws are the same. The only reason murder is "illegal" is because of a fiat declaration by the government. Are you gonna claim laws aren't real?

[Draco-Onis]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the value of the dollar. You're making shit up.

Consumer sentiments and confidence have effects of currency values, risk and interest rates.

Again, "digital currency" is a nonsense phrase. Currencies are already digital. If you can get paid by direct deposit and pay for things with a card, it's because your currency's digital.

As for the rest, none of that makes sense and crypto wouldn't improve it anyway.

Why do you keep repeating things about improving your life again this isn't about that perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say. The technology behind crypto currency provides a lot of data and control to people in power. I am not saying crypto is going to be adopted so it seems we are misunderstanding each other.

No, it's having the authority to state that it is true.

Laws are the same. The only reason murder is "illegal" is because of a fiat declaration by the government. Are you gonna claim laws aren't real?

Law and money are based on the same concept we as a society decided on it, our faith in it dictate its value and adherence to it. When groups lose faith in government and its systems its how you get revolutions. The authority of the state is based on the faith of its people, governments require a form of consent because we outnumber the state.

If they were concrete things they wouldn't change and fluctuate. Don't misunderstand me I am not saying that asset backed currencies or crypto is better they all have their major flaws and pitfalls.

[Sunseeker]

Let it be done is wishing something to just happen. I am surprised you never heard it since I have heard around for a while even before crypto currencies. I am glad to admit that I am wrong if not a lot of people have heard it.

Why would you be wrong if we haven't heard of it? Maybe its totally true that's what people are calling it now, but if it's an acronym, then what do the other letters stand for? Surely you know right? Or you can link us to a couple places that use it as an acronym and define it the same way? Preferably not cryptobro sites?

Because again, you're talking to a guy who spend years studying politics, government, economics and I've never heard it referred to as an acronym. But hey, maybe it's new, new shit happens all the time, by all means, show me.

[Draco-Onis]

Why would you be wrong if we haven't heard of it? Maybe its totally true that's what people are calling it now, but if it's an acronym, then what do the other letters stand for? Surely you know right? Or you can link us to a couple places that use it as an acronym and define it the same way? Preferably not cryptobro sites?

Because again, you're talking to a guy who spend years studying politics, government, economics and I've never heard it referred to as an acronym. But hey, maybe it's new, new shit happens all the time, by all means, show me.

So are you going to answer the crux of my argument or do you wish to spent a few posts going back and forth about something else?

[Sunseeker]

So are you going to answer the crux of my argument or do you wish to spent a few posts going back and forth about something else?

I'm not going to answer anything further from you until you provide something to back up your claims.

I told you what I studied for years, you're gonna have to try a lot harder to turn this around on me.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm not going to answer anything further from you until you provide something to back up your claims.

I told you what I studied for years, you're gonna have to try a lot harder to turn this around on me.

You want proof that the piece of paper we call money isn't just backed by belief but has intrinsic value? really?

[Sunseeker]

You want proof that the piece of paper we call money isn't just backed by belief but has intrinsic value? really?

Jesus dude. SMH. You're not even trying. Go home, have a drink, get some sleep, come back tomorrow and actually put some effort in trying to get one over on me.

I won't be posting any further responses to you until tomorrow. That's about 14 hours from now.

[Draco-Onis]

Jesus dude. SMH. You're not even trying. Go home, have a drink, get some sleep, come back tomorrow and actually put some effort in trying to get one over on me.

I won't be posting any further responses to you until tomorrow. That's about 14 hours from now.

Oh it's okay we don't need to talk to each other it's clear you are not reading anything when you called me a cryptobro then went on to laughably complain about having a "nuance" argument. For the record I don't own crypto nor do I like the space, I do admire the back end and think the market won't go away because of greed hence it needs to be heavily regulated.

[NED funded]

You spend all this time learning about how economies work but you don't understand what the F in FIAT stand for? you have faith that your time, labor, production and everything is stored in that piece of paper because you have faith that your country and everything on it is not going to burn to the ground. That Faith is higher because the odds of that happening are smaller than the magic beans that this new coin is based off on.

Diffs between value and the ability to use it for its intended purpose. An intermediary for an exchange of goods and services. Not specific to the US dollar but for currencies in general.

And yeah obvi if a country crashes its currency is worthless but thats just for everything in general. Stability makes a lot of things function

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Oh it's okay we don't need to talk to each other it's clear you are not reading anything when you called me a cryptobro then went on to laughably complain about having a "nuance" argument. For the record I don't own crypto nor do I like the space, I do admire the back end and think the market won't go away because of greed hence it needs to be heavily regulated.

I hope the SEC makes it illegal

[Draco-Onis]

Diffs between value and the ability to use it for its intended purpose. An intermediary for an exchange of goods and services. Not specific to the US dollar but for currencies in general.

And yeah obvi if a country crashes its currency is worthless but thats just for everything in general. Stability makes a lot of things function

I would mostly agree, cryptocurrencies were doomed from the start because the concept of scarcity for a currency instantly makes it heavily favor early adapters and nullifies its use as a stable currency since increase adoption cause heavy price fluctuation. In its current state crypto is more of a security than a currency.

On a side note there are currencies that have managed to still be used even though governments have burned to the ground.
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I hope the SEC makes it illegal

Nah that ship has sailed.

[Bakis]

I hope the SEC makes it illegal

Doubt that will be a feasible scneario.
The issues some (mostly DEMs) have with bitcoin is that it lack regulation which is true. But there has been no serious and wide attempt to get regulation in play and untill then it will be moot to cry about bitcoin. GOP sure as hell wont sign off on an early 'ban' and to be honest any sane person would have the view of "Add the regulation you see fit, see what happens. Add/remove regulation. Just dont bitch about it when you're in a position to regulate and fail to do so". -sort of.