CC in cataclysm...

[heerobya]

I think Cataclysm is going to have enough raid content right off the bat that raiding players won't HAVE to run heroics every day, it may be more efficient for them to simply raid one of the 4 or whatever available raids and skip heroics all together once they out gear them, kind of like how things were in TBC.

But then those at heroic level or trying to break into raiding can still use heroics to "catch up" and such.

Blizzard admitted the badge system and heroics were a mess in Wrath, forcing you to do heroics throughout the ENTIRE expansion because they kept upping the badges and badge rewards for heroics.

[Kunz]

Im only happy that they bring back CC. Cuzz then it will not be faceroll anymore, ppl have to think twice b4 they go nuts on packs.

my 2 cents

[Ashareth]

What i find weird is that (some) people are trying to pretend really hard that any class has GOOD cc when in fact it's not the case and making list of cc abilities (half of them not being CC at all) or trying to pretend off-tanking/kiting is CC (no it's not, never was, never will be), and even more that some MELEE classes are supposed to kite but, strangely (as in : "it's 90% sure they are one of the 2/3 classes heavy on cc that can be used in Cata") they "forget" to mention than nearly all cc in-game is target dependant, that nearly none of it works on undead, that quite some only works on non-elemental humanoids, some only on demons/elementals and such, and some only on undead.

The problem with cc in WoW is that it hasn't be thought into the game, but is some sort of weird "band-aid" rushed in with a stupid design in mind.
If ALL classes/specs have reliable and reasonable cc usable in NEARLY ALL situations (and not just against one type of mob you can not encounter for a whole expansion...) having a certain amount of CC in instances wouldn't be a problem.
The main problem (specially in TBC and it seems to come back in part) is that the need for CC was tailored for a group with 1+ heavy CC user, there isn't really in WoW, leading to the stacking of classes with reliable CC (sap/frost traps/sheep and such).

In Everquest (and early EQ2) the need for CC was bearable in instances because quite some class/archetypes had decent amounts of them, those classes were mostly utility/support and not dps, and there was a class/archetype whose role was cc/support, so you would bring one in a 6 man group. But even like that it lead to the problem that you couldn't do half the content without one and it was a pain.

A little like nearly every 10man raid right now will take any bad Shaman as last spot for BL instead of a good player of another class, because it makes encounters far much easier.

Edit>> and i love all the "WotLK heroics were faceroll" when for months most people refused to run HoS/OK due to them being "too hard", and Blizz had to nerf them big time (making them far less fun, specially OK) before people ran them.
What made HC too easy for A PART of the player base is the fact that there was no gear reset, and that all the people in T6 gear already overgeared HC when they reached 80, didn't need gear in it outside of a couple piece, and didn't replace their gear for most part till the second half of Naxx....

It shouldn't happen in Cata with the gear reset. THAT will make instances more difficult to run than in WotLK because you won't have overgearing people pulling you trough while letting you take the gear up from start.
After that in second/third tier it'll be exactly like now.

[heerobya]

I think Blizzard knows what classes have what CC, how often it is usable and how reliable it is, and how well represented those classes are within the over all population.

They are smart enough to design encounters requiring CC with those considerations in mind.

[snowblind]

Blizzard admitted the badge system and heroics were a mess in Wrath, forcing you to do heroics throughout the ENTIRE expansion because they kept upping the badges and badge rewards for heroics.

I think they also said that it would be a while (and take more than one raid tier) to make it so you could "cap" your Valor points without doing heroics.

At any rate, people will still be "forced" to do heroics throughout the entire expansion. Maybe not high end raiders (but a lot of them aren't doing heroics now, anyway).

[Deleted]

I proooobably missed one of those real cool blue posts, but where did anyone say anything about bringing CC back to heroics?
Yes, they do want to bring back CC to the game. But does that mean they are going to force this onto all of us? I doubt it.
When I first heard about the rebirth of CC in Cataclysm I got really excited, looking forward to raiding the new tier of content while not being able to just /afk every single pack of trash mobs. I always thought of "bringing back CC" as a "let's go back to the roots, have some challenging, controllable trash packs in raids." It never occured to me that Blizz would want to screw up their own system by introducing too much CC in heroics. I mean, surely they are going to aim for more challenging content where players are asked to cooperate again, but I don't think that adding tons of unnecessary CC just for the heck of it is part of that.

[Deleted]

To a point, he's right. CC being required is not a skill, nor is it really a challenge - it's a pacing mechanism. Yes, being able to bulldoze through heroics when literally anybody can be at least two tiers ahead of them does get boring... but on the other hand, if I'm at least two tiers ahead of the heroics, I should be afforded some liberties like that.

But there's also a middle ground.

If we go back to the days of TBC where 2-3 of every single trash pack needs to be CC'd somehow, it'll get really old, really fast. The only saving grace of TBC heroics is that they were purely a means to an end. Once you got the gear necessary to do Karazhan, you didn't have to run a lot of heroics anymore.

With the ever-so-thoughtful change, where you get some of the "best" emblem equivalent for running a heroic a day... having to constantly CC everything in heroics throughout the lifespan of the expansion will be tiresome as hell.

Can't help agreeing with this man: CC has nothing to do with skill. It is a way to stop the groups from bullying their way through an instance with recount showing top abilities like Blizzard (83%), Rain of Fire (91%) or Fire Nova (79%) at the end of the run.

That is the only reason why: Pacing the instance. Having the illusion to be skillful when all it is is a moon or a square on top of a mob and not using AoE. This is not skill.

To put an example down, skill in 5 men is having gauntlets like the tunnel in PoS hc, The Krick and Ick Encounter (to some extent) managing a pull with both a caster and a ranged DPS like in HoR hc, or the last wave of scourge while escaping the Lich King. That pull is big and messy, and if the tanks/healers can't manage their CD, or the DPS cant manage their aggro, then you start having trouble.

The issue i think is that it takes a lot of brainstormign and good idea to create gauntlets or encounters like that for all of the endgame 5 man content, when restablishing CC is MUCH easier.

The issue I see could be using LFG with classes that have limited CC, or CC that doesnt work against this or that type of mobs. But let's see how it unfolds...

[RumlyD]

The whole thing with the 'return of cc' in Cata, in my opinion, is that it will likely be needed (but nowhere near tbc style) in heroic mode dungeons when you are at the correct gear level. Once you gear up in raids, you'll probably dispense with the CC and aoe through, but the difference will be that in Cata there will be fewer steps up in item level, due to the 10/25 shared loot system, meaning we won't overgear five mans as drastically as we do now, which makes them require 0 concentration as you churn through mobs in a single gcd.

[Traejun]

Can't help agreeing with this man: CC has nothing to do with skill. It is a way to stop the groups from bullying their way through an instance with recount showing top abilities like Blizzard (83%), Rain of Fire (91%) or Fire Nova (79%) at the end of the run.

That is the only reason why: Pacing the instance. Having the illusion to be skillful when all it is is a moon or a square on top of a mob and not using AoE. This is not skill.

Well said. CC is not making people play more skillfully...not even a little. CC is just about 1 person in the group placing a little emblem above some mob's head so that 1) it can be CC'd; and 2) nobody should DPS it. No skill...just a quick message in /p chat.

I know this may piss people off, but I'll say it anyway. Blizz is bringing back CC for the sole reason that they want to slow down the 5-man dungeon runs. A lot of people complained about the 10 minute faceroll that 5's like UK, VH, and AN became even as early as 3.1. In the devs' minds, adding CC will simply add 5-10 minutes to runs...at least for a little while.

[Thegovna]

CC takes skill because if you don't do it, tuned up mobs kill you.

Translation: Mobs are more powerful.

Translation 2: It's harder.


You guys are stupad

[Citaxis]

What i find weird is that (some) people are trying to pretend really hard that any class has GOOD cc when in fact it's not the case and making list of cc abilities (half of them not being CC at all) or trying to pretend off-tanking/kiting is CC (no it's not, never was, never will be), and even more that some MELEE classes are supposed to kite but, strangely (as in : "it's 90% sure they are one of the 2/3 classes heavy on cc that can be used in Cata") they "forget" to mention than nearly all cc in-game is target dependant, that nearly none of it works on undead, that quite some only works on non-elemental humanoids, some only on demons/elementals and such, and some only on undead.

While you may be attempting to pin the definition of "crowd control", you are completely negating the actual effect. The end result of crowd control is to remove one or more mobs in a pack from attacking the tank. This end result can be accomplished in a huge number of ways by things you define as "not crowd control". Whether they fit the literal definition or not, they accomplish the end result, and are referred to as such. If you can't make any of your abilities fit this mechanic, you are playing your class wrong.

Also:

Which is why it won't be the all out CC orgy that you and people like you have a raging hard-on for. They had their chance to keep heroics at possible 2-3 hour ordeals, and they got rid of it.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've seen maybe ONE person want to go back to the hardcore CCing. If you had paid attention to any posts before and/or after yours, you would've noticed that most people in favor of it are referring to the "one CCed mob per several trash packs" that Blizzard has been hinting at. Since you apparently missed the several blue posts attesting to the ideal of keeping CC minimal, but present, please direct your attention to the posts expressing happiness at CC coming back in small amounts, and not the "3 mobs per pull" bullcrap from H-MgT. Nobody wants to see that come back. We just want to see the morons that can't keep their eyes off of ****ing Recount and finger off their AoE button get put back in their place at the bottom rung not even able to do Heroics instead of into end-game raids where they are now.

[Arashi]

We just want to see the morons that can't keep their eyes off of ****ing Recount and finger off their AoE button get put back in their place at the bottom rung not even able to do Heroics instead of into end-game raids where they are now.

Someone mad i believe.

And here we go, yet another person who thinks that THEY deserve to do end game raids over someone else based on a fabrication of skill, challenge and a pacing mechanic in order to draw out the length of an instance as said earlier.

So by his logic anyone who can sheep moon or sap X is a genius and can automatically do end game raiding, that makes sense; you would think people would complain more about "The guy who sits around and looks at his DPS meter while ignoring all boss mechanics while everyone else around him is getting wtf owned"

TL;DR: He mad and crowd control doesn't mean you're good at the game

[ComputerNerd]

CC may not be a requirement throughout a dungeon, since that is reliant largely on who the group consists of.
Though it certainly will have an impact on a dungeon run, where you cannot just aoe everything down without consequences.
Despite the view that being able to CC does not make you genius, if you actually try asking players the CC nowadays the majority will give you a very blank look because they havn't the faintest idea of what the concept means, let alone how to pull it off.
The more of it we have to do in cataclysm the better.

[Citaxis]

Someone mad i believe.

Only at the DPS who are too inattentive to stop standing in fire long enough to stay alive instead of spamming Recount while staring at the ceiling. These are the same people you'll find unable to do CC, and from your defensiveness, you seem to be one of them. Crowd control ability does not equal skill, but it does equal being able to actually pay attention to your surroundings. Correlation is not causation, but for WoW skill, it's good enough for government work.

[GennGreymane]

never saw cc as skill

if cc=skill than several classes and specs has 0 skill because back when cc mattered they had no cc even now some specs dont have a real cc

but the tbc god sayers claim oh u can off tank or kite.... both of which didnt exist unless if ur kiting the entire room was cleared and off tanking was that ret or non prot warrior in t4+ doing it

from what i saw in normals.. 1 cc is needed like thats it like on the op healer mob or sumtin

by the time ur in raid gear u can claim once again heroics are to easy.... in raid gear wait that happening now!

[snowblind]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've seen maybe ONE person want to go back to the hardcore CCing.

And I was replying to one of them when I said that. You apparently read my post... did you read the one I was responding to? Guess not, otherwise you would perhaps have directed your impotent nerd rage somewhere else.

[GennGreymane]

but yea the gear jump being slowed down will help alot

lets count

quest blues/greens < heroic blues/epics< naxx10 < naxx 25 < ulduar 10 < ulduar 25 = ulduar heroic 10 (from hard mode stuff) < heroic ulduar 25 gear (from hard mode stuff) < toc 10 < toc 25 < toc heroic 10 < toc heroic 25 < icc 10 < icc25 <icc heroic 10 < icc heroic 25

(left out side raids and stuck with the main ones)

could how far gear has progressed since u were in gear good enough for heroics

[Malckeor]

I'm happy with it. It brings back the classic feeling of Warcraft. Plus, it requires more planning and strategy, which is always nice. OP, you have no place to speak because you weren't around in vanilla or BC.

[GennGreymane]

I'm happy with it. It brings back the classic feeling of Warcraft. Plus, it requires more planning and strategy, which is always nice. OP, you have no place to speak because you weren't around in vanilla or BC.

wuts ur problem? the op was just not at lvl cap normals still used some cc and the op didnt like it there for the ops opinion matters

[Direpanda]

That is the only reason why: Pacing the instance. Having the illusion to be skillful when all it is is a moon or a square on top of a mob and not using AoE. This is not skill.

While I agree that gauntlets and mixed pulls are a lot more fun than "sheep the moon, sap the star, and root the circle", I must say that CC does require more skill ... it requires the leader to know which mobs are most dangerous, which can be CC'd given his party's various abilities, and how the kill order needs to go down based on the cooldowns or DR of this CC. Once applied, the tank needs to pull the uncontrolled mobs away from the others so that something like Consecrate won't break it, and the DPS players need to have the awareness to keep their CC chains up without sacrificing too much DPS. And, of course, whenever something goes wrong, you get to see who REALLY knows their stuff.

Is this particularly hard? No. But it's harder than moving a targeting reticule over a mass of mobs and watching the DPS roll in.