Why was C'thun pre-nerf "Impossible"?

[Cluck]

rofl, obviously you have not the slightest clue. did you start with wow in 2009?! a flask was mandatory in all old raids from day one on (hi molten core). flasks were much more powerful than today, giving you around +150 spellpower when i recall correctly, while your gear gave you only maybe +300 or something like that.

don't make up "facts" and try to sell them to people that are even newer to the game, trying to make yourself look like a "veteran" while talking BS.

Actually flasks were rarely used when raiding started, due to a combination of needing a very high amount of materials, and fading upon death. Flasking permanently didn't start gaining popularity until flasks stopped fading on death; even for the most hardcore of guilds farming the sheer amount of materials required to constantly flask when they still faded on death was simply non-viable. You might have flasked on an encounter for which you needed a bit more 'oomph' but otherwise had the tactics down for (Or if you wanted to a MC speed run), but you'd rarely keep them up for most of the instance. People did spend a lot more time gathering other less costly consumables though, like the various plants you can find in Felwood, other non-flask buff potions, and of course simple mana potions.

[Gish]

Actually flasks were rarely used when raiding started, due to a combination of needing a very high amount of materials, and fading upon death. Flasking permanently didn't start gaining popularity until flasks stopped fading on death; even for the most hardcore of guilds farming the sheer amount of materials required to constantly flask when they still faded on death was simply non-viable. You might have flasked on an encounter for which you needed a bit more 'oomph' but otherwise had the tactics down for (Or if you wanted to a MC speed run), but you'd rarely keep them up for most of the instance. People did spend a lot more time gathering other less costly consumables though, like the various plants you can find in Felwood, other non-flask buff potions, and of course simple mana potions.

I believe he was talking about progress raids were always flasked

[ComputerNerd]

1st)yes the pet was called disgusting oozeling

2nd)i don't have any screen-shot but you can understand how nihilum/ensidia think and act if you were around on the HM LK ban they had were they were ranting for 10 or something hours that they didn't exploit the fight and after that time they said "yes we did it but we didn't knew it as an exploit/cheat"(yeah right you didn't knew what you were doing you are 12 year old kids that are innocent :P )

3rd)don't know if its smart clever stupid or right/wrong i never cared who killed fist a boss or something BUT on the matter of nihilum/ensidia when the lost the world first kill on yog from the US guild that got banned(cant remember the name)because they exploited their GM kungen wrote a blog judging that guild for exploiting a world first fight and how wrong it is and blah blah blah(or to put it this way he was bitching because he didn't thought that thing first :P and since he lost the world first by stars he had to retake a 1st in ICC :P by any means :P )
(somebody must tell me how to make multiple quotes :P )

Click the button next to "Reply with Quote", which itself looks like a quote mark.
That will add that post to those to be quoted, and once all are marked, click Reply With Quote.

[Izuria]

The following Quote is a reply by Siralex on WoWhead:

C'Thun was literally impossible for any guild to kill when he was first implemented. Phase 1 was doable, but phase 2 was just downright brutal.
Giant Claws had >90k hp, Giant Eyes had >40k hp, the Little Eyes had roughly 2.3k hp. Every 30 seconds, 8 Little Eyes would spawn around C'Thun, and mindflay the raid (if left alive long enough they would kill the healers). On another timer, every 40 seconds, C'thun would spawn a Giant Claw and Giant Eye. The Giant Claws would do about 1.5k-2k (which was a lot pre-BC) on t2 geared tanks and could use Thrash and kill a bunch of DPS or Healers at once. The Giant Eyes had a Green Beam effect that could chain to multiple targets and could kill your entire raid essentially.
When entering Phase 2, C'Thun has 100% HP and now has a protective shield that basically nullifies any incoming attacks to do basically no damage. To damage/kill C'Thun, he would "eat" people every 10 seconds and place them in him stomach. In his stomach are two Flash Tentacles which have 24k hp. Your raid needs to kill both Flash Tentacles to weaken C'Thun. After the nerf (not sure of how many before) it would take 2-3 weakenings to kill C'Thun.

Given the information above, it required guilds in T2/AQ40 gear (Naxx wasn't out yet, even though the gear wouldn't have been significant enough to kill him still) to put out a whopping 230k damage to keep up with the various spawns. Now, this was possible for guilds back then, but only on single targets. When you have 8, 12, 17, 22, or more adds alive (the spawns had no cap limit, you could technically have a full room of tentacles) its very hard to push out 230k damage for your always having to switch.

Patch 1.10.1 (hotfix)
We have also hotfixed the following changes to the C’thun encounter in Ahn’Qiraj:

#Lowered the hit points of both Giant Claw Tentacles and Giant Eye Tentacles.
#Decreased the damage caused by Ground Rupture, and made the effect resistable.
#Significantly decreased the melee damage done by Giant Eye Tentacles.

In the 1.10.1 patch, we also changed the way that C’thun identifies who is in his stomach. The faction changing debuff that was previously applied will no longer appear, but C’thun’s tentacles should not spawn in the stomach, nor should a player in the stomach be the target of C’thun’s Eye Beam.

The combination of these changes should give players more time to damage C'thun instead of dealing with tentacles, and see fewer "unavoidable, random" deaths occur due to Ground Rupture effects.

Patch 1.10.0
Temple of Ahn'Qiraj
# Removed the stacking acid from the Flesh Tentacles in the C'thun encounter.
# Digestive Acid now increases its effect over time during the C'thun encounter.
# Fixed a bug that could allow for the Digestive Acid debuff to be removed.
# Lowered the amount of knockback dealt by Giant Tentacles.
# Tentacles should no longer spawn on players who have just been knocked back by a previous tentacle.

To me it looks like LK HC 40 mans really, both are incredibly hard DPS races but elitism was rare back then.

[Cluck]

I believe he was talking about progress raids were always flasked

They still typically weren't. There were four flasks back in classic: Health, spell power, mana and resistance. Due to the way the encounters worked, your tanks didn't need the health flask to survive, it merely gave the healers extra breathing room (Possible exception in some BWL bosses I'll admit, Broodlords Mortal Strikes were nasty, and Shadowflame was pretty hard hitting though more predictable). When you're still learning the encounters, you also didn't need the extra mana on your healers. As long as your healers didn't need extra mana, your casters also wouldn't need the extra spell power to make the encounter beatable: The first bosses with enrage timers were Lord Kazzak and Battleguard Sartura, Ragnaros also typically but again that was due to a healer out of mana issue, they typically wouldn't be able to keep up the healing any more if a second submerge were to happen. The resistance flask was fairly costly for the resistance it provided, it was typically easier to just get your raid extra resistance gear.

The key limiter of it all is that the flasks faded on death, and the encounter design (As well as the flasks available) rarely required you to be using the flasks to be able to learn the way the encounter worked.

[Tyrionlol]

rofl, obviously you have not the slightest clue. did you start with wow in 2009?! a flask was mandatory in all old raids from day one on (hi molten core). flasks were much more powerful than today, giving you around +150 spellpower when i recall correctly, while your gear gave you only maybe +300 or something like that.

don't make up "facts" and try to sell them to people that are even newer to the game, trying to make yourself look like a "veteran" while talking BS.

This is correct, during farm it was mandatory but since they didn't presist thru dead (I don't think they did anyway) we didn't use them during farm just becouse they we're expsensive . Flask on moongoose gave like 5% crit which was just huge!.

[Paulosio]

Different to a boss being bugged as C'thun was.

[dracco4heads]

So long story short, due to bugs it was impossible with the current gear, but if we lets say had lvl 70 gear it would still be doable, even with the bugs ?

[Looped]

I remember reading somewhere Nihilum killed him the night before the nerf by flasking the entire raid (which was a totally new concept back then)

I seriously hope this wasn't a serious statement. You make it sound like Pre-TBC raiders were complete retards that found out about flasks 2 years after its initial release.

[Balbarei]

I remember reading somewhere Nihilum killed him the night before the nerf by flasking the entire raid (which was a totally new concept back then).

Also your source isn't even "sure mages or pallies had it (replenishment)".. If you knew anything you'd know the only mana batteries you had were SPs in TBC... There was no such thing as Replenishment only damage done by the SP converted to mana for the PARTY (see party, not raid). Also just because there was no tree form didn't mean INSTA OOM. Unreliable Source you got there.

They exploited a game mechanic meaning that "kungen" their leader and MT, summoned the pet Diguise Oozeling during the fight on Cthun and all his "poison" attacks etc went to the pet and pet was immune so thats how they cheated pre-nerf!

[Nerph-]

A broken page?

/facepalm. Anyone not half blind can easily see that the last ')' is not linked and you have to add a ')' after opening the link. Sigh.

[seam]

It was not overtuned, it was bugged. Well, and a bit overtuned.

Extra spawns, mainly, from what I recall.

[Herecius]

Ok, imagine Lich King. You imagining the fight? Ok good.

Now imagine the fight, let's say it's on 25 man. But instead of three val'kyrs coming down, TEN DO.

That's what C'thun pre-nerf was like.

[Cluck]

It was not overtuned, it was bugged.

Extra spawns, mainly, from what I recall.

Bit of both. There were issues with people in C'Thun's stomach (Or who were in the process of being flung into C'Thun's stomach) having giant tentacles spawn on top of them, resulting in a fun wipe due to an eye tentacle that most of your raid would be incapable of hitting, but which was very much capable of hitting your entire raid. That was fixed along with the reduction of the health of the various tentacles; perhaps the encounter might have been doable with just the bugs fixed, but that's something no one ever got a chance to test.

[seam]

Bit of both.

Yeah, I edited it a bit before you posted, I misworded what I meant to say. I is tired x_x

[Koilie]

Wasn't yogg0 mathematically impossible aswell?
Even tho it was mathematically impossible he still got killed.

They forgot to carry the 1 when they were doing the calculations...


Or they just didnt factor in that bringing 8 locks and a few Spriest that could do continuous DPS through Drain soul/MF and dots in a method I like to call the Turn&Burn. Stand on the edge of yogg in and do your normal rotation. Face away for Gaze but continue to cast MF/DS by holding your right mouse button and rotating your toon 180 degrees instantly, cast your channeled spell and rotate back all before gaze can tick on you. Repeat. profit ^_^

[Neelix]

Now, if you were flasked, world buffs, playing extreamly carefull and well AND having extreme luck you could...

Kill him. If all of the above conditions were met, that is ALL of the above, it was possible to kill C'thun pre hotfix. Every single bug you mentioned had a chance of occurring. If the stars aligned twice over, in other words, you had all possible buffs and replenishment, zero tentacles spawned inside (it's possible), zero big tentacles spawned in unreachable areas (it's possible), beams did not gib half the raid (bug/byproduct of having no 'walled' tentacles - it's possible).

Three very unlikely, but possible scenarios. It was possible to kill C'Thun pre hotfix.

[Doctor Professor]

Quit spreading rumors already.

Sure, they may have exploited C'thun but we can't know for sure as you pick your macro icons yourself, if you want to, so that dashing oozeling icon could've simply been a "PULLING" macro. Albeit, that may be far fetched but acting like a rumorfuled mob is just idiotic.

Vashj; Bug, but personally I'm not convinced it was intentional exploitation.

LK; It was normal mode, not hardmode. At the time little information existed on the encounter and it's quite safe to assume that due to attempt limits, timepreassure and general urge to kill him, they didn't much bother to check what was going on when the otherwise falling ice stayed up.

But nothing of the above will stop a judgemental ass from being a judgemental ass (Irony, right?), and I'll probably get called a fanboy, but I'm confident that anyone with atleast half a brain shares this train of thought.

Thank you, I was just about to type that. But no matter how reasonable argument you put in the discussion, the dumb people will simply ignore it and carry on with their bullshit, because reasonable arguments and dumb people don't mix well. If they had the reason in first place, they'd be capable of making their own opinion.

Wake up people. Question accusations. Be curious. Research possibilites. Take nothing for granted. THINK FOR YOURSELF.

[Mammoth]

There are some nasty spreading of misinformation here. I have to set the record straight here, no matter what you think, the truth is maths is accurate and you can work out when the dps required to kill something is impossible. Maths == reality - the result for a game with RNG should be in the form of a propability distribution - if it isn't correct its the person doing the maths forgetting to factor something in. Stop spreading fowl rumours about maths.

[Deleted]

I find it very, very interesting how many of you are such experts on CTHUN fight prenerf... Would be really funny to find out how many of you actually are some "wotlk made raiders" who havent been in any raid at all even in TBC, let alone in vanilla.