Thrall's Appointment of Garrosh to Warchief

[catablitz]

As part of a primitive/honor based society like the Horde, I don't think you can lose a duel as the Warchief and NOT jeopardize your seat at the top of the pyramid. Sure, it might not have been stated formally, but I'm sure it was understood.

---------- Post added 2010-09-22 at 11:48 PM ----------



Wow, that was completely out of left field. It's always uncomfortable when people start to involve their RL personal politics in discussions like this.

More on-topic, there are two lines of thinking in the Horde (this was mentioned earlier by someone else):

Old School Horde: "Wow, we really messed up, did alot of horrible things in the past, and hurt alot of people in the process. Things aren't always clearly right or wrong, and the world is a complicated, nuanced place, where..."

New School Horde: "For the Horde! Let's kick some ass!"

Garrosh is the poster-boy for the New School Horde. He's basically of the opinion: "Let's go kick as much ass as we can, 24/7 or GTFO!" We see how successful that attitude was in past wars, even WITH the support of the Burning Legion. I'm sure it's just as likely to ultimately fail this time as well.

Well mate sorry to be the bringer of bad news but the game reflects and bears symbolisms of IRL. Religion and political structures are the most obvious themes. I merely mentioned anything political from my personal view, just read again and you will understand.

More on topic,
Vanilla Horde: Recently recovered by the war and settled in Kalimdor. War did not end with peace but with Horde, actually orc, withdrawal from eastern kingdoms after the events that changed the leadership,
freed orcs from burning legion influence and closed the way back home.

-Garrosh status-> The whole situation never touched him. He was never corrupted by the curse of blood and was leaving in a paradise. Depressed, however, since the news of the orc situation were known to him but not to the full extend. He was aware of the corruption but not how it ended, hence his shame about his father's fel deeds.

TBC Horde: Portal opens back to outlands and kalimdor orcs travel back. They find a shattered planet as well as an untainted frontier with never corrupted orcs. Moreover the portal created another war front with alliance. The horde works against the plans of Illidan and Kil'jaeden eventually and the vastly majority stays in azeroth. Again peace was never made.

-Garrosh status-> Thrall informs him about his glorious past and takes him with him. Garrosh learns about the full history of the orcs, regains his respect about his father, redeems his guilts, finds self confidence and trains in new horde customs and ways in azeroth.

Wotlk Horde: Lich king attacks orgrimmar and Horde goes to war in northrend. Lich king is defeated. Again peace was never made.

-Garrosh status-> Challenges Thrall for leadership in a nevended duel. Leads successfully the forces of the Horde in northrend campaign, always trying to push things with alliance. Returns a hero.

Cataclysm Horde: Azeroth is reshaped and natural resources are depleted due to aftermath. The very existence of the races becomes an issue. Either Deathwing or lack of resources will end life. War with alliance scales to a new level. No cease fire period is known as of yet. Speculating, it is probable that when Deathwing becomes an imminent threat 'we will all work together against a bigger threat bla bla bla'.

-Garrosh status-> Becomes the new warchief, reshapes the horde and under his rule they undergo the biggest reformation after their initial settle in kalimdor. Fortifies Orgrimmar, boots trolls, kills Cairne and threatens open Sylvanas.


What we have here is a character that has evolved in an epic story. A forgotten orc in some distant planet that learns the truth about the name he bears and eventually becomes warchief, a straight descendant of Hellscream.

Surprisingly this character faced rediculous hate because he..pushed Jaina..and taunted Varian before he taunted him.

I admit that the story isnt complete and needs some filling since it has great potential. The part of Garrosh's life in azeroth with Thrall and the northrend adventures are the obvious fields.

So far, so good. I just hope Garrosh stays a Hellscream and doesnt end like a make love not war hippy cause some people felt offended after he called Sylvanas bitch or mocked Vol'jin.

[Wildberry]

Are you really naive enough to just accept that Garrosh changed seemingly overnight into this genuine, caring and mature individual?

Actually, I quoted this already, but I'll copy and paste what I wrote earlier just for you, hopefully you and all the others saying he changed overnight WILL READ IT THIS TIME.

Pre-BC:

Alright, so first we will look at Garrosh before we ever encounter him, right after the second war when the Alliance Expedition is trying to stop Ner'Zhul From entering other worlds. Garrosh Hellscream was a mere child here, not in charge of anything yet, and suffering from the Red Pox. Kargath Bladefist Enters Garadar and Demands reinforcements to fight off the Alliance Expedition, Greatmother Geyah, the Orc Matron in charge of Garadar, told him no, utterly disgusted at what the Horde had done. It is then that Garrosh asks Kargath about his dad, Grom, and also asks to fight alongside him, at first Kargath ignores him, and then Kargath proceeds to call the Mag'har Weaklings, and not Orcs anymore. This places the idea in Garrosh's Head that he and the rest of the Mag'har are somehow less than other orcs, keep this in mind because we'll adress it later. Later on, Garrosh asks Geyah about Grom and she tells him that Grom was a monster, and that he Damned the Orcish Race.

The Burning Crusade:

Now when we see Garrosh in game for the first time, his depression has gotten worse, and he's now one of the important chiefs among the Mag'har, and we also see that the Mag'har are under attack by the ogres, and also, that Greatmother Geyah has fallen extremely ill. Now we see Garrosh doing nothing about this, and this isn't because he doesn't know what to do, but rather, he's afraid to do it. I say this, because the Garrosh we see in Nagrand is the SAME Garrosh we see in Warsong Hold. Only while in Nagrand, Garrosh isn't doing anything, and although he wants to go send in the mag'har to crush the ogres, he doesn't because he knows it's something Grom would've done, and therefore makes it the wrong thing to do. This is why he hasn't done anything, because he always notices the similarities between his actions and Grom's actions, and that makes it wrong, atleast in his eyes. On top of all of that His depression has gotten worse because he knows Greatmother Geyah is close to death and he realizes that once she's gone he will have to lead his people, and he feels unfit for the job because he's terrified of messing up and hurting his people, like his father did. Fortunately, when to Garrosh, all seems lost, Thrall arrives and after his conversation with Greatmother Geyah, he speaks to Garrosh and tells him that his father was a hero and saved the orcish race. Unfortunately he makes one mistake there, he completely glossed over all of Grom's faults and didn't tell Garrosh things like, how Grom Battled the blood curse, and how Grom didn't give in to his bloodlust but rather, controlled it and honed it into a weapon. so we now see Garrosh Embrace being a Hellscream and also embrace the Bloodlust he feels.

Wrath Of The Lich King:

Fast forward to Warsong Hold, All of Garrosh's actions right now, have shown him to be impulsive, hotheaded, and reckless, and right now this is true, for two reason. The first is that he is letting his bloodlust and rage control him, instead of Controlling it, like Grom did, and also because he's trying to live up to the expectations of the Horde, to be a true orc (Remember what Kargath said about the Mag'har) because so far he's heard tales of war and glory about the horde, so he's just trying to follow what he believes the Horde to be. Unfortunately, Thrall made another mistake, he made him commander of the Warsong expedition, when so far, Garrosh doesn't have any experience at leading ANYTHING. So we see Garrosh put in this position, and he pretty much has to learn on the job. Now the reason we don't see him learning faster than he does, is because his brutal tactics have either worked or Saurfang cleaned up the mess, fortunately Garrosh does learn how to lead armies at the end of the campaign against the Lich King. Now let's go to his Dialogue with Saurfang, Basically you have Saurfang, who knows the, what he feels to be atrocities, that the Old Horde Commited, and Garrosh who has heard about the Horde being this bloodthirsty, vicious, yet honorable War Machine. So we see these two conflicting ideas, the one held by Thrall and some of the older veterans, and the one held by Garrosh and some of the Younger orcs of the Horde. This dialogue leads players to view Garrosh as a Bloodthirsty, Child Murdering, Lunatic, And while nothing comes out of the dialogue at the beginning, most likely because Garrosh sees Saurfang as an old fool, he ponders his conversation with the venerable orc, throughout Northrend, and it is at the Very end, that we see these wise words sink in. So in Icecrown Citadel, once Garrosh recognizes the wisdom Saurfang has to offer, takes these words to heart: "Honor, no matter how dire the battle, NEVER forsake it."

Cataclysm:

This is where we see Garrosh when he has not only matured, but actually learned about the horde while in Northrend, instead of assuming that it was some vicious war machine. And although Garrosh is still unwilling to think about peace with the alliance (Who since the return of Wrynn, interestingly enough the ONLY alliance Garrosh has ever seen, have proven to be nothing but a threat to the Horde) yet honorable and competant enough, for Thrall to choose him to be Warchief. Thrall does this because he has seen that Garrosh has Grown alot since they first met, and that he is the Orc his people want, yet honorable enough to lead with wisdom.

[Powerogue]

garrosh doesn't seem stubborn and obnoxious atm. that's so unlike him.

must process his personality shifts into a timeline...

-in nagrand, QQ moar garrosh. your father was a jerk, so what?
-thrall alerts him of his father 1-shotting a 25 man raid boss, and his ego grew 3 sizes that day! he goes to northrend ready to kick the lich king in the face
-saurfang intimidates him enough to get him to calm down and listen, and he "learns much about the horde" learning about strategies beyond throwing soldiers at it until it goes away
-he goes to thrall who says he's the leader now! he's unsure, almost back to his old emo self for a moment. he's reassured, and confident he'll make daddy proud
-ROARGRAGE GET OFF MY SHIP! THIS IS ORGRIMMAR! WATCH YOUR CLEVER MOUTH SYLVANAAS!

the many faces of Garrosh Hellscream. :/

[Zhangfei]

Which happens over years.

Which, to me, seems reasonable - especially with monumentally significant psychological shifts happening when processing new information.

It's the format of WOW that makes Garrosh suck, not the writing.

[Fourty-two]

I wonder who it was who advised Garrosh to make such a move (assuming he actually did), because that seems a little complicated for him to think up himself. Would we seriously expect to believe he can concoct political strategies like that himself and then show how much of an idiot he can be by sending away a fighter escort screen to attack Alliance, leaving zeps to get eaten by twilight drakes? He had to have had help making those moves. It sure as hell wasn't Cairne, Vol'jin, or Eitrigg either. So who's his new advisors?

Come on Putress' Preserved Head!!!

/crossesfingers

or, Garrosh is just surrounding himself with yes men.

[Deleted]

1) Do we know that Cairne challenged him for leadership? Especially after we have seen Thrall refer to Cainre as an advisor for Garrosh. Garrosh also never really had much credibility within the Horde he's been the butt of there jokes for 2 years now...

Yes, the duel for leadership has been mentioned. We will see what his reasoning behind it is once it's implemented on the live game or the PTR. I think Garrosh might have reached some rash decisions shortly after Thrall leaves, and Cairne won't stand for it.

[willjones410]

Come on Putress' Preserved Head!!!

/crossesfingers

or, Garrosh is just surrounding himself with yes men.

Well sorry to burst your bubble on that but, being the orc supremest that he is, Garrosh wouldn't take orders from heads of known undead traitors. So that's out.

His chosen advisor probably would be a bunch of guys who thought they way he did. Yes men sycophants? Possibily, but one of them had to have thought that up.

Orcish Advisor: Warchief, I have an idea that might get get the elder warriors to be more willing to fight for you against the Alliance.
Garrosh: Yes, what is it?
Advisor: We know where Thrall and his Earthen Ring allies are going, what routes they will take. Perhaps that information should slip to the Alliance somehow, they might intercept Thrall and capture or kill him and his crew. Our warriors will be so outraged that they would raise their axes demanding vengeance for Thrall.
Garrosh: ....You do realize that what you are suggesting is treason? You are willing to give the one who fought for our freedom and built our home to our enemies just to start a war? COWARD!!! RAWR!!!
**splits the advisor down the middle**
Garrosh: Next. What do you say?
Advisor 2: Ummm....nothing, Warchief. Nothing at the moment.
Garrosh: Very well. I have an idea. Let's leak information about Thrall's whereabouts to the Alliance. Then they can capture or kill him and those old war dogs will be so outraged they would HAVE to fight for me! For the HORDE!!!
Advisor 2: .......*sigh*

[Fourty-two]

Well sorry to burst your bubble on that but, being the orc supremest that he is, Garrosh wouldn't take orders from heads of known undead traitors. So that's out.

His chosen advisor probably would be a bunch of guys who thought they way he did. Yes men sycophants? Possibily, but one of them had to have thought that up.

Orcish Advisor: Warchief, I have an idea that might get get the elder warriors to be more willing to fight for you against the Alliance.
Garrosh: Yes, what is it?
Advisor: We know where Thrall and his Earthen Ring allies are going, what routes they will take. Perhaps that information should slip to the Alliance somehow, they might intercept Thrall and capture or kill him and his crew. Our warriors will be so outraged that they would raise their axes demanding vengeance for Thrall.
Garrosh: ....You do realize that what you are suggesting is treason? You are willing to give the one who fought for our freedom and built our home to our enemies just to start a war? COWARD!!! RAWR!!!
**splits the advisor down the middle**
Garrosh: Next. What do you say?
Advisor 2: Ummm....nothing, Warchief. Nothing at the moment.
Garrosh: Very well. I have an idea. Let's leak information about Thrall's whereabouts to the Alliance. Then they can capture or kill him and those old war dogs will be so outraged they would HAVE to fight for me! For the HORDE!!!
Advisor 2: .......*sigh*

Public Opinion...
Position of Power...
Taking someone elses ideas as your own...
Willingness to throw a friend under the bus...

OMG... Garrosh is becoming an evil that is even greater than the Burning Legion and Old Gods combined.

...He is becoming a politician!!!

[Kanubis]

People saying he changes overnight... you do know that lorewise the characters still exist when we're not standing there watching them right? Time passes. For all we know Garrosh gets a nightly "Be a bit less of a dick" lesson from Thrall or Eitrigg.

I understand that the younger members who have seen a little less of the world might think it's impossible for people to change dramatically in the course of a year of two, but I assure you it happens.

[critterkiller]

Public Opinion...
...He is becoming a politician!!!

hehe

[Fourty-two]

People saying he changes overnight... you do know that lorewise the characters still exist when we're not standing there watching them right? Time passes. For all we know Garrosh gets a nightly "Be a bit less of a dick" lesson from Thrall or Eitrigg.

I understand that the younger members who have seen a little less of the world might think it's impossible for people to change dramatically in the course of a year of two, but I assure you it happens.

The "He's Growing Up In The Backstory That We Don't See or Hear About" is a hard pill to swallow.

All the players see is: depressed Garrosh, angry Garrosh, angrier Garrosh, and then less angry Warchief Garrosh. Then Blizz expects us to love him without any explanation on his shifts in character.

At least Varian got a less than stellar comic to explain his backstory and motives. What do we have to explain Garrosh's? Nothing other than player speculation.

[Kanubis]

The "He's Growing Up In The Backstory That We Don't See or Hear About" is a hard pill to swallow.

All the players see is: depressed Garrosh, angry Garrosh, angrier Garrosh, and then less angry Warchief Garrosh. Then Blizz expects us to love him without any explanation on his shifts in character.

At least Varian got a less than stellar comic to explain his backstory and motives. What do we have to explain Garrosh's? Nothing other than player speculation.

The alternative is a mediocre comic, as you say, or attempts to totally explain it ingame. Or we could ask Knaak to write a novel?

The problem is that the range of narrative tools you need to show truly complex character development simply aren't available. This gives the developers the choice between keeping the characters largely static or letting them fill in the gaps.

I understand some might prefer the former, personally I'm fine with the latter.

[Fourty-two]

The alternative is a mediocre comic, as you say, or attempts to totally explain it ingame. Or we could ask Knaak to write a novel?

The problem is that the range of narrative tools you need to show truly complex character development simply aren't available. This gives the developers the choice between keeping the characters largely static or letting them fill in the gaps.

I understand some might prefer the former, personally I'm fine with the latter.

I only bought a couple of the comics. I gave up and just read the cliffnotes after that.

Though, i'd rather read a fanfic explaining Garrosh's backstory (i'm sure there are a couple out there). Atleast they would make more sense then a Knaak comic. Even a fantasy world filled with magic and dragons has its limits to acceptable.