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  1. #221
    Pit Lord Alski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post

    Sorry to disappoint you, but you can only cast it from caster form and it is best benefited by spell power, so even if we could cast it in Bear or Cat form, it would make no difference.

    Thorns damage formula: 400 + (SP * .421)
    So its best to be cast by a healer or boomkin.

    Also realize that Thorns is in the balance tree and thats why it benefits from SP and not AP. (If you were going to ask. =P)
    You will find thorns scales of either AP (what your AP would be in cat form) or SP which ever one gives the better result will be used, currently in just screwing around and as feral thorns is ticking for 3k+ in all forms.
    Last edited by Alski; 2010-10-22 at 06:11 PM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Yeah, if you have good enough healers, you could be in full DPS gear with full agility gems and rape shit.

    On a more serious note, you can't cast thorns in any other form than caster form... If you try to pop thorns in cat, bear, or boomkin form it will automatically shapeshift you out.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but you can only cast it from caster form and it is best benefited by spell power, so even if we could cast it in Bear or Cat form, it would make no difference.

    Thorns damage formula: 400 + (SP * .421)
    So its best to be cast by a healer or boomkin.

    Also realize that Thorns is in the balance tree and thats why it benefits from SP and not AP. (If you were going to ask. =P)
    Thorns benefits from spell power or attack power, whichever is largest, feral is currently significantly more than caster thorns, i didn't test it however just went by the default tooltip changing as changed forms between bear and cat, tested now and i stand corrected that it doesn't change between bear and cat(tooltip does). You're still wrong as well tho.

    Full mastery reforge and full agi dps gear takes less damage on every boss i tested than either our paladin tank or our dk tank. Win.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Alski View Post
    You will find thorns scales of either AP (what your AP would be in cat form) or SP which ever one gives the better result will be used, currently in just screwing around and as feral thorns is ticking for 3k+ in all forms.
    Ah, I wish the tooltip would say that. I was just going off of what the tooltip says. My bad.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-23 at 12:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Thorns benefits from spell power or attack power, whichever is largest, feral is currently significantly more than caster thorns, i didn't test it however just went by the default tooltip changing as changed forms between bear and cat, tested now and i stand corrected that it doesn't change between bear and cat(tooltip does). You're still wrong as well tho.

    Full mastery reforge and full agi dps gear takes less damage on every boss i tested than either our paladin tank or our dk tank. Win.
    I didn't realize it was SP or AP, was just reading the tooltip.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Full mastery reforge and full agi dps gear takes less damage on every boss i tested than either our paladin tank or our dk tank. Win.
    Better question I have is, did you tests tanking gears as well?

    It is no brainer that you can get more survival from Agi gear due to Blizzard not buffing the dodge rating to match the Agility stats on WotLK.

    In Cata, the only different between the gears is Crit bonus from Agility.

    For an example from Cata from wowhead:

    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98 (2.07% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 120 (10.15 @ L85).
    vs
    Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (2.57% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (7.19 @ L85).
    vs
    The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (1.72% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112

    Since Dodge Rating and Agility give the same amount toward Dodge, so both Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) and Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) give 2.57% Dodge at lvl 85. Therefore it is a choice in Cata, do you want more Critical Strike % or less Parry-Haste problem dealing with those two gears.

    The only reason why I added Lustrous Eye to show that there are two tanking necklace, one with less Attack power or one with more Attack power.

    The debate about Agility vs Tanking is only dealing with WotLK gears.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Better question I have is, did you tests tanking gears as well?

    It is no brainer that you can get more survival from Agi gear due to Blizzard not buffing the dodge rating to match the Agility stats on WotLK.

    In Cata, the only different between the gears is Crit bonus from Agility.

    For an example from Cata from wowhead:

    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98 (2.07% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 120 (10.15 @ L85).
    vs
    Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (2.57% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (7.19 @ L85).
    vs
    The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (1.72% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112

    Since Dodge Rating and Agility give the same amount toward Dodge, so both Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) and Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) give 2.57% Dodge at lvl 85. Therefore it is a choice in Cata, do you want more Critical Strike % or less Parry-Haste problem dealing with those two gears.

    The only reason why I added Lustrous Eye to show that there are two tanking necklace, one with less Attack power or one with more Attack power.

    The debate about Agility vs Tanking is only dealing with WotLK gears.
    186 Agility = 2.6% dodge in Cataclysm.
    168 Dodge Rating = .92% dodge in Cataclysm.

    Agility is way superior to dodge rating, even in Cataclysm.

    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) is amazing for feral tanks.
    Same amount of stam, more dodge, more crit, more AP, more Expertise and Haste to reforge to Mastery.

    Btw, Expertise Rating 120 = 4 Expertise, not 10.15.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    186 Agility = 2.6% dodge in Cataclysm.
    168 Dodge Rating = .92% dodge in Cataclysm.

    Agility is way superior to dodge rating, even in Cataclysm.

    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) is amazing for feral tanks.
    Same amount of stam, more dodge, more crit, more AP, more Expertise and Haste to reforge to Mastery.

    Btw, Expertise Rating 120 = 4 Expertise, not 10.15.
    Let see what the data in Cata once it is out. Also you might have misread the Agility from Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it is 168. Wowhead state the 168 dodge is 2.57%, so take it up to them.

    Right now, Dodge rating and Agility give the about the same amount toward Dodge %. The only different between the two is 0.001% and Crit from Agility. 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0220982% Dodge and 1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge. The number are too close to said which one is better. Those number will still be close at 85.

    Therefore, I still stand by saying it is a choice between more Crit or less parry-haste from bosses.

    If you have a choice between the two, I would pick Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) since 120 Expertise would give me 48 Mastery rating if I do not have threat problem.

    Again the 120 Expertise Rating = 10.15, take it to the wowhead people. They did the math.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Let see what the data in Cata once it is out. Also you might have misread the Agility from Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it is 168. Wowhead state the 168 dodge is 2.57%, so take it up to them.

    Right now, Dodge rating and Agility give the about the same amount toward Dodge %. The only different between the two is 0.001% and Crit from Agility. 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0220982% Dodge and 1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge. The number are too close to said which one is better. Those number will still be close at 85.

    Therefore, I still stand by saying it is a choice between more Crit or less parry-haste from bosses.

    If you have a choice between the two, I would pick Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) since 120 Expertise would give me 48 Mastery rating if I do not have threat problem.

    Again the 120 Expertise Rating = 10.15, take it to the wowhead people. They did the math.
    Wowhead is still calculating level 80 forumlas, not level 85.

    Go to elitistjerks.com and look at the level 85 data table.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Infernix17 View Post
    Wowhead is still calculating level 80 forumlas, not level 85.

    Go to elitistjerks.com and look at the level 85 data table.
    Ok, first question which forum did you look at because I found two.

    Combat Ratings Level 85 Cataclysm

    or

    Cataclysm Bear Theorycraft

    Cataclysm Bear Theorycraft does not have the ratio for the Agility to % Dodge and is working on it.

    Agi: 2 AP while in Cat or Bear Form, 1% Physical Crit per 324.85, 1% Dodge (pre-DR) per TODO

    Dodge: 1% Dodge (pre-DR) per 176.71899

    So I am using Combat Ratings Level 85 Cataclysm to do the math.

    Level 85
    Dodge Rating: 176.71899
    Expertise Rating: 30.0272
    Agility: 243.58281085 (agility/1% Dodge)
    Agility: 324.85 (agility/1% Crit)
    Haste Rating: 128.05701

    Druid receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating

    On these example gears: I will not deal with Haste at all.

    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98, Expertise Rating by 120 (4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power
    vs
    Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (0.9507% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (2.83 @ L85), 256 Attack Power.
    vs
    The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (0.6338% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112, 336 Attack Power

    With the info from elitistjerks, Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) has more Dodge % than Barnacle Pendant (Heroic).

    However due to the high Expertise Rating and Attack power in Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it would be a better choice.

    Reforge 1: Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 59, Expertise Rating by 120 (4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power, 39 Mastery Rating

    Reforge 2: Barnacle Pendant (Heroic):+168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98, Expertise Rating by 72 (2.4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power, 48 Mastery Rating

  9. #229
    cant wait to gem all agility like BC again.

    Agility is so awesome now that we get attack power from it =D

  10. #230
    Deleted
    and its best dps stat as well for cat
    no more keeping 2 sets :P

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihir View Post
    and its best dps stat as well for cat
    no more keeping 2 sets :P
    Compare the different gems choices for feral druid.

    Bear:
    Yellow: Stamina/Mastery Rating (Green)
    Red: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
    Blue: Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)

    Kitty:
    Yellow: Agility/Mastery Rating (Orange)
    Red: Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
    Blue: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)

    You will need to make two different set of gears.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Compare the different gems choices for feral druid.

    Bear:
    Yellow: Stamina/Mastery Rating (Green)
    Red: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
    Blue: Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)

    Kitty:
    Yellow: Agility/Mastery Rating (Orange)
    Red: Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
    Blue: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)

    You will need to make two different set of gears.
    I think what Mihir is saying is that you are viable as a Feral DPS and Feral Tank in the same encounter whereas one month ago with armor penetration you gain considerable threat but not sufficient mitigation or health to be a truly viable emergency tank as was the situation in the Burning Crusade.

    A hybrid spec or hybrid equipment might use this:

    Red: 40 Agility
    Yellow: 40 mastery
    Blue: 20 Agility/30 Stamina

    This would emphasize mitigation tanking quite heavily but I believe that may be the best methodology for Cataclysm anyway. Stamina only became popular due to avoidance nerfs and the considerable damage dealt by end game bosses in WotLK. Then everyone began following suit even when that wasn't necessarily the best decision for the their level of content. You almost need as much stamina as possible if you are the soak tank on the Lich King but otherwise I am not convinced straight stamina is the way to go. Time will tell what to do for Cataclysm content.

  13. #233
    yeah if you're bad. I plan on just using all agility and mastery gear. No thanks on the stam.

    Different trinkets? sure. Maybe a few different pieces here and there, but for the most part I can use full DPS gear for tanking and vice versa.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-23 at 07:52 PM ----------

    mine was directed @ auroro

    like hit/agi in blue sockets imo, or something of the sort

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Paskgotsheal View Post
    yeah if you're bad. I plan on just using all agility and mastery gear. No thanks on the stam.

    Different trinkets? sure. Maybe a few different pieces here and there, but for the most part I can use full DPS gear for tanking and vice versa.

    ---------- Post added 2010-10-23 at 07:52 PM ----------

    mine was directed @ auroro

    like hit/agi in blue sockets imo, or something of the sort
    Hadn't thought about agility/hit for Bear Form. Might be a good idea since hit appears to be exceedingly low in Cataclysm.

  15. #235
    That was directed at auroro who seems to like to go hybrid with stam with everything

    But during my time on beta hit is ridiculously low. Even if you get some good peices of gear.

    But to be fair I am using the 4 set pvp because it gives 400 extra agility (def worth it since you only lose like haste/crit). And I don't have access to teir obviously or i'd be using that.

  16. #236
    I anticipate using
    Agi/Mastery Red
    Mastery Yellow
    Mastery/Hit Blue

    It's possible may go
    Agi Red
    Agi/Mastery Yellow
    Agi/Hit Blue

    I don't see stam featuring in my gemming in my tanking future at all.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98, Expertise Rating by 120 (4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power
    vs
    Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (0.9507% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (2.83 @ L85), 256 Attack Power.
    vs
    The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (0.6338% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112, 336 Attack Power

    With the info from elitistjerks, Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) has more Dodge % than Barnacle Pendant (Heroic).

    However due to the high Expertise Rating and Attack power in Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it would be a better choice.
    Your numbers for Barnacle Pendant did not take MotW into account nor the AP bonus we get from Aggression though you did account for them for Darkhowl Amulet.

    Barnacle Pendant
    168 Agility = 0.724% dodge, 0.53% crit bear, 0.57% crit cat, 441 AP in bear, 509 AP in cat

    Darkhowl Amulet
    128 Strength = 336 AP in bear, 370 AP in cat
    168 Dodge Rating = 0.950% dodge

    0.2% more dodge is not worth the 100 extra AP and 1/2% crit you get from the agility necklace.

    As I've said in other threads; there is no reason right now to pursue strength based tanking items over agility based items unless they either have lots of armor (assuming they are implemented) or the strength piece is a much higher item level in which case your fellow tanks will probably be rather upset with you since said items are unquestionably better for them now.

    In case anyone is wondering:

    AP/Agility:
    Bear = Agility * 1.05*2*1.25 or Agility * 2.625
    Cat = Agility * 1.05*1.05*1.1*2*1.25 or Agility * 3.031875.

    Dodge/Agility:
    Bear = Agility * 1.05 * 0.00410537
    Cat = Agility * 1.05 * 1.05 * 0.00410537

    Crit/Agility:
    Bear = Agility * 1.05 * 0.0030783
    Cat = Agility * 1.05 * 1.05 * 0.0030783

    AP/Strength:
    Bear = Strength * 1.05 * 2 * 1.25 or Strength * 2.625
    Cat = Strength * 1.05 * 1.1 * 2 * 1.25 or Strength * 2.8875

  18. #238
    Blademaster Sylvenmyst's Avatar
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    For God's sakes, please stop posting numbers if you don't know how to do the calculations correctly! And if you having to rely on WoWhead for number calcs cause you dont know what your doing, just stop and let people who have an idea, (i.e. Infernix, Cheezee, othersiprobablydontknow) But blaming bad calcs on a site cause your just punching numbers on your calc with your forehead is just stupid. Its probably confusing people. On the topic, thanks for the continuing work on the guide. I think the stacking more agil than before is solid, however I still wouldn't put more agil than stam on my stuff, just me until I get a personal feel for the tanking. To me, its more than just "hey, here's a solid cookie cutter application for how to fill your bear out", got to take into acct their gear at the time, if they are MT/OT, imo that does make a difference, such as even talents I would say, to a small degree. Stampede over bash that sorta thing. I can see uses in them, but some don't, so to each his own. But also I am assuming most of this is going for the heavier hitting Tanks who are MTing for reg or heroic modes? A bit more difference as in WoTLK heroic modes "tended" to lean a bit more towards spell dmg and not physical difference from the normal. So agi would mean crap at that point, but mastery still would work I think? At that point and at some points I still think your gonna need the health pool to survive things you just aint gonna dodge or proc SD on. Theres a reason bears have a bigger pool than the other goobs who can parry/block. Just my thinking, just got to keep an open mind till Cata releases, then we still got many more threads to make about whos is better! lolz

  19. #239
    Here are couple of the Cata Leather gears.

    Chest

    Feet

    Weapon

    Relic

    Two gears on the Wowhead at the moment.

    Hand

    Shoulder

    One gear on the Wowhead at the moment.

    Head

    Legs

    Belt

    Wrist

    I am not going into the Non-leather stuff (Cloak, Necklace, Rings, Trinkets), there is too many choices.

    I just look at the enchantment, how come you did not add Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle?

    It is 20 dodge rating and 22 Stamina.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Here are couple of the Cata Leather gears.
    Why would you like those items and not the Tier 11 set and off-set pieces especially any crafted items?

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