Last edited by Alski; 2010-10-22 at 06:11 PM.
Thorns benefits from spell power or attack power, whichever is largest, feral is currently significantly more than caster thorns, i didn't test it however just went by the default tooltip changing as changed forms between bear and cat, tested now and i stand corrected that it doesn't change between bear and cat(tooltip does). You're still wrong as well tho.
Full mastery reforge and full agi dps gear takes less damage on every boss i tested than either our paladin tank or our dk tank. Win.
Better question I have is, did you tests tanking gears as well?
It is no brainer that you can get more survival from Agi gear due to Blizzard not buffing the dodge rating to match the Agility stats on WotLK.
In Cata, the only different between the gears is Crit bonus from Agility.
For an example from Cata from wowhead:
Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98 (2.07% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 120 (10.15 @ L85).
vs
Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (2.57% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (7.19 @ L85).
vs
The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (1.72% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112
Since Dodge Rating and Agility give the same amount toward Dodge, so both Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) and Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) give 2.57% Dodge at lvl 85. Therefore it is a choice in Cata, do you want more Critical Strike % or less Parry-Haste problem dealing with those two gears.
The only reason why I added Lustrous Eye to show that there are two tanking necklace, one with less Attack power or one with more Attack power.
The debate about Agility vs Tanking is only dealing with WotLK gears.
186 Agility = 2.6% dodge in Cataclysm.
168 Dodge Rating = .92% dodge in Cataclysm.
Agility is way superior to dodge rating, even in Cataclysm.
Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) is amazing for feral tanks.
Same amount of stam, more dodge, more crit, more AP, more Expertise and Haste to reforge to Mastery.
Btw, Expertise Rating 120 = 4 Expertise, not 10.15.
Let see what the data in Cata once it is out. Also you might have misread the Agility from Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it is 168. Wowhead state the 168 dodge is 2.57%, so take it up to them.
Right now, Dodge rating and Agility give the about the same amount toward Dodge %. The only different between the two is 0.001% and Crit from Agility. 1 Dodge Rating = 0.0220982% Dodge and 1 Agi = 0.0225641% Dodge. The number are too close to said which one is better. Those number will still be close at 85.
Therefore, I still stand by saying it is a choice between more Crit or less parry-haste from bosses.
If you have a choice between the two, I would pick Barnacle Pendant (Heroic) since 120 Expertise would give me 48 Mastery rating if I do not have threat problem.
Again the 120 Expertise Rating = 10.15, take it to the wowhead people. They did the math.
Ok, first question which forum did you look at because I found two.
Combat Ratings Level 85 Cataclysm
or
Cataclysm Bear Theorycraft
Cataclysm Bear Theorycraft does not have the ratio for the Agility to % Dodge and is working on it.
Agi: 2 AP while in Cat or Bear Form, 1% Physical Crit per 324.85, 1% Dodge (pre-DR) per TODO
Dodge: 1% Dodge (pre-DR) per 176.71899
So I am using Combat Ratings Level 85 Cataclysm to do the math.
Level 85
Dodge Rating: 176.71899
Expertise Rating: 30.0272
Agility: 243.58281085 (agility/1% Dodge)
Agility: 324.85 (agility/1% Crit)
Haste Rating: 128.05701
Druid receive 30% more melee haste from Haste Rating
On these example gears: I will not deal with Haste at all.
Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98, Expertise Rating by 120 (4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power
vs
Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic): +128 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 168 (0.9507% @ L85), Expertise Rating by 85 (2.83 @ L85), 256 Attack Power.
vs
The Lustrous Eye (Rep item?): +168 Strength, +252 Stamina, Dodge Rating by 112 (0.6338% @ L85), Mastery Rating by 112, 336 Attack Power
With the info from elitistjerks, Darkhowl Amulet (Heroic) has more Dodge % than Barnacle Pendant (Heroic).
However due to the high Expertise Rating and Attack power in Barnacle Pendant (Heroic), it would be a better choice.
Reforge 1: Barnacle Pendant (Heroic): +168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 59, Expertise Rating by 120 (4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power, 39 Mastery Rating
Reforge 2: Barnacle Pendant (Heroic):+168 Agility, +252 Stamina, Haste Rating by 98, Expertise Rating by 72 (2.4 @ L85), 0.6897% Dodge, 0.5172% Crit, 336 Attack Power, 48 Mastery Rating
cant wait to gem all agility like BC again.
Agility is so awesome now that we get attack power from it =D
and its best dps stat as well for cat
no more keeping 2 sets :P
Compare the different gems choices for feral druid.
Bear:
Yellow: Stamina/Mastery Rating (Green)
Red: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
Blue: Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)
Kitty:
Yellow: Agility/Mastery Rating (Orange)
Red: Agility (Red), or Expertise (Red)
Blue: Agility/Stamina (Purple), Agility/Hit (Purple), Expertise/Stamina (Purple), Stamina (Blue), or Hit (Blue)
You will need to make two different set of gears.
I think what Mihir is saying is that you are viable as a Feral DPS and Feral Tank in the same encounter whereas one month ago with armor penetration you gain considerable threat but not sufficient mitigation or health to be a truly viable emergency tank as was the situation in the Burning Crusade.
A hybrid spec or hybrid equipment might use this:
Red: 40 Agility
Yellow: 40 mastery
Blue: 20 Agility/30 Stamina
This would emphasize mitigation tanking quite heavily but I believe that may be the best methodology for Cataclysm anyway. Stamina only became popular due to avoidance nerfs and the considerable damage dealt by end game bosses in WotLK. Then everyone began following suit even when that wasn't necessarily the best decision for the their level of content. You almost need as much stamina as possible if you are the soak tank on the Lich King but otherwise I am not convinced straight stamina is the way to go. Time will tell what to do for Cataclysm content.
yeah if you're bad. I plan on just using all agility and mastery gear. No thanks on the stam.
Different trinkets? sure. Maybe a few different pieces here and there, but for the most part I can use full DPS gear for tanking and vice versa.
---------- Post added 2010-10-23 at 07:52 PM ----------
mine was directed @ auroro
like hit/agi in blue sockets imo, or something of the sort
That was directed at auroro who seems to like to go hybrid with stam with everything
But during my time on beta hit is ridiculously low. Even if you get some good peices of gear.
But to be fair I am using the 4 set pvp because it gives 400 extra agility (def worth it since you only lose like haste/crit). And I don't have access to teir obviously or i'd be using that.
I anticipate using
Agi/Mastery Red
Mastery Yellow
Mastery/Hit Blue
It's possible may go
Agi Red
Agi/Mastery Yellow
Agi/Hit Blue
I don't see stam featuring in my gemming in my tanking future at all.
Your numbers for Barnacle Pendant did not take MotW into account nor the AP bonus we get from Aggression though you did account for them for Darkhowl Amulet.
Barnacle Pendant
168 Agility = 0.724% dodge, 0.53% crit bear, 0.57% crit cat, 441 AP in bear, 509 AP in cat
Darkhowl Amulet
128 Strength = 336 AP in bear, 370 AP in cat
168 Dodge Rating = 0.950% dodge
0.2% more dodge is not worth the 100 extra AP and 1/2% crit you get from the agility necklace.
As I've said in other threads; there is no reason right now to pursue strength based tanking items over agility based items unless they either have lots of armor (assuming they are implemented) or the strength piece is a much higher item level in which case your fellow tanks will probably be rather upset with you since said items are unquestionably better for them now.
In case anyone is wondering:
AP/Agility:
Bear = Agility * 1.05*2*1.25 or Agility * 2.625
Cat = Agility * 1.05*1.05*1.1*2*1.25 or Agility * 3.031875.
Dodge/Agility:
Bear = Agility * 1.05 * 0.00410537
Cat = Agility * 1.05 * 1.05 * 0.00410537
Crit/Agility:
Bear = Agility * 1.05 * 0.0030783
Cat = Agility * 1.05 * 1.05 * 0.0030783
AP/Strength:
Bear = Strength * 1.05 * 2 * 1.25 or Strength * 2.625
Cat = Strength * 1.05 * 1.1 * 2 * 1.25 or Strength * 2.8875
For God's sakes, please stop posting numbers if you don't know how to do the calculations correctly! And if you having to rely on WoWhead for number calcs cause you dont know what your doing, just stop and let people who have an idea, (i.e. Infernix, Cheezee, othersiprobablydontknow) But blaming bad calcs on a site cause your just punching numbers on your calc with your forehead is just stupid. Its probably confusing people. On the topic, thanks for the continuing work on the guide. I think the stacking more agil than before is solid, however I still wouldn't put more agil than stam on my stuff, just me until I get a personal feel for the tanking. To me, its more than just "hey, here's a solid cookie cutter application for how to fill your bear out", got to take into acct their gear at the time, if they are MT/OT, imo that does make a difference, such as even talents I would say, to a small degree. Stampede over bash that sorta thing. I can see uses in them, but some don't, so to each his own. But also I am assuming most of this is going for the heavier hitting Tanks who are MTing for reg or heroic modes? A bit more difference as in WoTLK heroic modes "tended" to lean a bit more towards spell dmg and not physical difference from the normal. So agi would mean crap at that point, but mastery still would work I think? At that point and at some points I still think your gonna need the health pool to survive things you just aint gonna dodge or proc SD on. Theres a reason bears have a bigger pool than the other goobs who can parry/block. Just my thinking, just got to keep an open mind till Cata releases, then we still got many more threads to make about whos is better! lolz
Here are couple of the Cata Leather gears.
Chest
Feet
Weapon
Relic
Two gears on the Wowhead at the moment.
Hand
Shoulder
One gear on the Wowhead at the moment.
Head
Legs
Belt
Wrist
I am not going into the Non-leather stuff (Cloak, Necklace, Rings, Trinkets), there is too many choices.
I just look at the enchantment, how come you did not add Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle?
It is 20 dodge rating and 22 Stamina.