More like Candleja
---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:05 AM ----------
That's a reason enough; why bother yourself with trying to reason with him when you can simply kill him?
---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:08 AM ----------
Absolutely agreed. I'm a confirmed True Neutral after all. Taboos are created because of fears, and what fear is greater than fear of death?
How Garithos treated the treacherous KT after he sided with the same enemies of the Alliance who attacked and sacked Dalaran isn't an issue here.
How other cultures views things is also not an issue. Child sacrifice is also seen as good in some cultures but I'm still going to call it evil.And of course there are gray morals because different cultures view things different and as such there is no absolute moral we frown upon suicide bombers but in another culture they are martyrs
He ordered them out of the city is as far as that betrayal went and indeed, theres no sign of it. Regardless of what he MAY have done, Sylvanas betrayed him and his troops. He may very well have betrayed them...but at that poitn in time, he wasn;'t attacking, nor had he apparently given any orders for his emn to turn on the Scourged after their victory.Because he would backstab them as soon they are no longer usefull to him
He's not a very sympathetic figure, no....but saying that Sylvanas betrayal and murder of those soldiers was justified because at some point in the future they MAY have come to blows is overly simplistic. As it was, its made very clear she had no intention of upholding her agreement no matter what. And either way, the peoples reaction to those actions wouldn't have helped their interaction with humanity or the Alliance.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2010-11-20 at 11:14 PM.
[QUOTE=Talen;9501443]How Garithos treated the treacherous KT after he sided with the same enemies of the Alliance who attacked and sacked Dalaran isn't an issue here.
How other cultures views things is also not an issue. Child sacrifice is also seen as good in some cultures but I'm still going to call it evil.
The naga were the ones to drive the scourge from dalaran because of that Garithos was able to take the city.Because he would backstab them as soon they are no longer usefull to him [q/uote]
He ordered them out of the city is as far as that betrayal went and indeed, theres no sign of it. Regardless of what he MAY have done, Sylvanas betrayed him and his troops. He may very well have betrayed them...but at that poitn in time, he wasn;'t attacking, nor had he apparently given any orders for his emn to turn on the Scourged after their victory.
He's not a very sympathetic figure, no....but saying that Sylvanas betrayal and murder of those soldiers was justified because at some point in the future they MAY have come to blows is overly simplistic. As it was, its made very clear she had no intention of upholding her agreement no matter what. And either way, the peoples reaction to those actions wouldn't have helped their interaction with humanity or the Alliance.
EJL
He did not only tell them to leave he called them reached animals and thats indication enough what would have happened later true Sylvanas never intended to keep the bargain with him but it might have been different if there had been a more accepting officer in charge promising the forsaken a place in the city things would have turned out different. (mainly because the belves would likely still be a part of that army and Sylvanas has a soft spot for her former people)
And you can see it as evil to sacrifice children but the people from that culture don't as such negating you moral perspective and making it void
Maybe they were. But Sylvanas staretd the Forskaens interaction with humanity and the Alalicne by wiping out one of the last, if not the last, organised units protecting people and fighting the Scourge and other threats in Lordaeron. She did this by essentially saying "I'm no friend of the Scourge...lets join together and fight", after which she killed those troops who had given her the benefit of the doubt.
Under what circumstances would you, knowing what you know about the Scourge, welcome in an undead friend, even one saying they had broken free of the Scourge, given that the first time this happened, these loyal sons of Lordaeron who followed their High Elf Banshee Queen ended up killing every human in sight?
EJL
You don't really see the simple logic? Having a die-hard nazi fool like Garithos around is like decorating your toilet seat with an armed bear trap. But killing him? It's simple. It took next to no effort to do this. What kind of repercussions did it have? None!
You may tell that it was the root of Forsaken vs. human hostility, but this whole deal is a forum-spawned speculation, in fact. Nowhere does the game or RPG lore back it up. Instead, we are told that humans became their enemies because of their loathing of all things emonic and undead. And we see that throughout the game: humans and other Alliance races call Forsaken wretches, abominations, murderers, and whatnot, never ever mentioning anything even remotely close to "Lordaeron betrayal (Sylvanas vs. Garithos)" or "revenge for Lordaeron". They call Forsaken unnatural just because their religion tells them to.
Last edited by Haven; 2010-11-20 at 11:25 PM.
The naga attacked and sacked Dalaran udner Illidans orders. KT later sided with them.
Noone is saying he was diplomatic.He did not only tell them to leave he called them reached animals
Maybe. There is, however, no indication that Sylvanas would have held back for anything or anyone. Nor has she held back since. Either way, Sylvanas betrayed the humans and set the stage. She proved she and her forces could not be trusted and showed that the differences between them and the Scourge, at least as far as humanity was concenred, were minimal.and thats indication enough what would have happened later true Sylvanas never intended to keep the bargain with him but it might have been different
My point. I don't care what they think....child sacrifice is evil. When **I** judge what is evil, I use **my** standards. Hence, the lack of grey.And you can see it as evil to sacrifice children but the people from that culture don't as such negating you moral perspective and making it void
EJL
Morality, justice, and virtue come from within
No culture dictates what's right for the individual.
Some people have it, and some do not.
Evil is consciousness bent on a twisted set of values, in the service of chaos or revenge.
Nothing more.
careful with things like that, a few weeks ago, I mentioned that the infinite dragonflight's intentions seemed benevolent.
it resulted in a 30 page thread about the mechanics of time travel, speculation based on possible events, and counterring those speculations requiring us to look even further, eg. CoS: arths doesn't become LK, current scourge doesn't form, KT isn't revived, archimonde doesn't get summoned, but maybe he does by someone else? what if someone else became the new LK? and so on.
again, be careful of "what if" style of deaths, they can derail threads SO easily
---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 11:29 PM ----------
is vengance and chaos bad?
would life exist if not for a random spark of lighnting on our primordial world supplying the energy for the first dna strand to form?
be careful labelling chaos as an evil thing
I must hve imagined the game then.
And its all true. Undeath isn't natural. The undead, as a faction, are murderers. And they engage in slavery, torture and medical experimenation upon living subjects as well. Theres an argument about whether they are free willed or not, but they see nothingwrong with depriving others of theirs.Nowhere does the game or RPG lore back it up. Instead, we are told that humans became their enemies because of their loathing of all things emonic and undead. And we see that throughout the game: humans and other Alliance races call Forsaken wretches, abominations, murderers, and whatnot, never ever mentioning anything even remotely close to "Lordaeron betrayal (Sylvanas vs. Garithos)" or "revenge for Lordaeron". They call Forsaken unnatural just because their religion tells them to.
Humanity may not like demons but they have good reason not to.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2010-11-21 at 12:27 AM.
Thrall should be able to beat some sense into Sylvanas after he is done trying to calm stuff down.
but how can you deprive others of free will if you have none yourself?
can they be accused of doing evil if they are being forced to do it?
wow... this is getting pretty deep :P
from the thread about whether sylvanas is a hypocrite, we've come to discussing the origins of good and evil :P
Exactly that, It's always been that way.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ndGrayMorality
is pretty much how WoW is Post-cata, although tbh it already was ever since Vanilla.
I can't blame myself if people troll themselves, and I don't recommand you to bother as well Btw I believe Infinite Dragonflight is benevolent as well. My version is that Nozdormu got tired of simply watching over stuff while having all that power, plus the vision of his own death - so he set out to put his might to use to change history, to forcefully prevent the worst things from happening. But this is derailing.