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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He was about to throw them out in the Wc3 cinematic but Sylvanas stops him mid sentence ordering Varimathras to kill him
    throw them out of what? lorderon? wasnt it pre-agreed that he would keep the city?

    im trying to find a on the spot justification for killing him rather then "he was a racist douchebag".

  2. #302
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Oh my god you are just like the Candyman ^^
    More like Candleja

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AedanWolfe View Post
    throw them out of what? lorderon? wasnt it pre-agreed that he would keep the city?

    im trying to find a on the spot justification for killing him rather then "he was a racist douchebag".
    That's a reason enough; why bother yourself with trying to reason with him when you can simply kill him?

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamG3691 View Post
    honestly, good and evil are meaningless terms created by our personal and society's norms and taboos, don't forget, many of our society's taboos are to do with death, wheras in WoW with things like resurrection and healing magics, death is less of a big deal, they have more of a society based on honor
    Absolutely agreed. I'm a confirmed True Neutral after all. Taboos are created because of fears, and what fear is greater than fear of death?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    More like Candleja

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:05 AM ----------


    That's a reason enough; why bother yourself with trying to reason with him when you can simply kill him?
    im interested in serious discussion, not forsaken fanboyism. therefore this will be the one and only response i give you on this topic, im going to ignore everything else. have a nice day

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They act like cornered humans and garithos and his men had it coming the moment they decided to kill an entire platoon of belves because they accepted naga help (even though Kaelthas took the responsibility)
    How Garithos treated the treacherous KT after he sided with the same enemies of the Alliance who attacked and sacked Dalaran isn't an issue here.

    And of course there are gray morals because different cultures view things different and as such there is no absolute moral we frown upon suicide bombers but in another culture they are martyrs
    How other cultures views things is also not an issue. Child sacrifice is also seen as good in some cultures but I'm still going to call it evil.

    Because he would backstab them as soon they are no longer usefull to him
    He ordered them out of the city is as far as that betrayal went and indeed, theres no sign of it. Regardless of what he MAY have done, Sylvanas betrayed him and his troops. He may very well have betrayed them...but at that poitn in time, he wasn;'t attacking, nor had he apparently given any orders for his emn to turn on the Scourged after their victory.

    He's not a very sympathetic figure, no....but saying that Sylvanas betrayal and murder of those soldiers was justified because at some point in the future they MAY have come to blows is overly simplistic. As it was, its made very clear she had no intention of upholding her agreement no matter what. And either way, the peoples reaction to those actions wouldn't have helped their interaction with humanity or the Alliance.


    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2010-11-20 at 11:14 PM.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    More like Candleja
    you got it wrong, you have to say candlejack and he kidnaps you mid sen

  6. #306
    [QUOTE=Talen;9501443]How Garithos treated the treacherous KT after he sided with the same enemies of the Alliance who attacked and sacked Dalaran isn't an issue here.



    How other cultures views things is also not an issue. Child sacrifice is also seen as good in some cultures but I'm still going to call it evil.

    Because he would backstab them as soon they are no longer usefull to him [q/uote]

    He ordered them out of the city is as far as that betrayal went and indeed, theres no sign of it. Regardless of what he MAY have done, Sylvanas betrayed him and his troops. He may very well have betrayed them...but at that poitn in time, he wasn;'t attacking, nor had he apparently given any orders for his emn to turn on the Scourged after their victory.

    He's not a very sympathetic figure, no....but saying that Sylvanas betrayal and murder of those soldiers was justified because at some point in the future they MAY have come to blows is overly simplistic. As it was, its made very clear she had no intention of upholding her agreement no matter what. And either way, the peoples reaction to those actions wouldn't have helped their interaction with humanity or the Alliance.


    EJL
    The naga were the ones to drive the scourge from dalaran because of that Garithos was able to take the city.

    He did not only tell them to leave he called them reached animals and thats indication enough what would have happened later true Sylvanas never intended to keep the bargain with him but it might have been different if there had been a more accepting officer in charge promising the forsaken a place in the city things would have turned out different. (mainly because the belves would likely still be a part of that army and Sylvanas has a soft spot for her former people)

    And you can see it as evil to sacrifice children but the people from that culture don't as such negating you moral perspective and making it void

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamG3691 View Post
    I've never heard that version of forsaken history before, I always thought it was that they were instantly killed on sight as monsters without even being given a chance?
    Maybe they were. But Sylvanas staretd the Forskaens interaction with humanity and the Alalicne by wiping out one of the last, if not the last, organised units protecting people and fighting the Scourge and other threats in Lordaeron. She did this by essentially saying "I'm no friend of the Scourge...lets join together and fight", after which she killed those troops who had given her the benefit of the doubt.

    Under what circumstances would you, knowing what you know about the Scourge, welcome in an undead friend, even one saying they had broken free of the Scourge, given that the first time this happened, these loyal sons of Lordaeron who followed their High Elf Banshee Queen ended up killing every human in sight?

    EJL

  8. #308
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AedanWolfe View Post
    im interested in serious discussion, not forsaken fanboyism. therefore this will be the one and only response i give you on this topic, im going to ignore everything else. have a nice day
    You don't really see the simple logic? Having a die-hard nazi fool like Garithos around is like decorating your toilet seat with an armed bear trap. But killing him? It's simple. It took next to no effort to do this. What kind of repercussions did it have? None!

    You may tell that it was the root of Forsaken vs. human hostility, but this whole deal is a forum-spawned speculation, in fact. Nowhere does the game or RPG lore back it up. Instead, we are told that humans became their enemies because of their loathing of all things emonic and undead. And we see that throughout the game: humans and other Alliance races call Forsaken wretches, abominations, murderers, and whatnot, never ever mentioning anything even remotely close to "Lordaeron betrayal (Sylvanas vs. Garithos)" or "revenge for Lordaeron". They call Forsaken unnatural just because their religion tells them to.
    Last edited by Haven; 2010-11-20 at 11:25 PM.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The naga were the ones to drive the scourge from dalaran because of that Garithos was able to take the city.
    The naga attacked and sacked Dalaran udner Illidans orders. KT later sided with them.

    He did not only tell them to leave he called them reached animals
    Noone is saying he was diplomatic.

    and thats indication enough what would have happened later true Sylvanas never intended to keep the bargain with him but it might have been different
    Maybe. There is, however, no indication that Sylvanas would have held back for anything or anyone. Nor has she held back since. Either way, Sylvanas betrayed the humans and set the stage. She proved she and her forces could not be trusted and showed that the differences between them and the Scourge, at least as far as humanity was concenred, were minimal.

    And you can see it as evil to sacrifice children but the people from that culture don't as such negating you moral perspective and making it void
    My point. I don't care what they think....child sacrifice is evil. When **I** judge what is evil, I use **my** standards. Hence, the lack of grey.

    EJL

  10. #310
    Morality, justice, and virtue come from within

    No culture dictates what's right for the individual.

    Some people have it, and some do not.

    Evil is consciousness bent on a twisted set of values, in the service of chaos or revenge.

    Nothing more.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It took next to no effort to do this.What kind of repercussions did it have? None!
    careful with things like that, a few weeks ago, I mentioned that the infinite dragonflight's intentions seemed benevolent.

    it resulted in a 30 page thread about the mechanics of time travel, speculation based on possible events, and counterring those speculations requiring us to look even further, eg. CoS: arths doesn't become LK, current scourge doesn't form, KT isn't revived, archimonde doesn't get summoned, but maybe he does by someone else? what if someone else became the new LK? and so on.

    again, be careful of "what if" style of deaths, they can derail threads SO easily

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 11:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Morality, justice, and virtue come from within

    No culture dictates what's right for the individual.

    Some people have it, and some do not.

    Evil is consciousness bent on a twisted set of values, in the service of chaos or revenge.

    Nothing more.
    is vengance and chaos bad?
    would life exist if not for a random spark of lighnting on our primordial world supplying the energy for the first dna strand to form?

    be careful labelling chaos as an evil thing

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    My point. I don't care what they think....child sacrifice is evil. When **I** judge what is evil, I use **my** standards. Hence, the lack of grey.
    EJL
    And thats why morals are gray because others don't see it the same way morals are like opinions.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    ou may tell that it was the root of Forsaken vs. human hostility, but this whole deal is a forum-spawned speculation, in fact.
    I must hve imagined the game then.

    Nowhere does the game or RPG lore back it up. Instead, we are told that humans became their enemies because of their loathing of all things emonic and undead. And we see that throughout the game: humans and other Alliance races call Forsaken wretches, abominations, murderers, and whatnot, never ever mentioning anything even remotely close to "Lordaeron betrayal (Sylvanas vs. Garithos)" or "revenge for Lordaeron". They call Forsaken unnatural just because their religion tells them to.
    And its all true. Undeath isn't natural. The undead, as a faction, are murderers. And they engage in slavery, torture and medical experimenation upon living subjects as well. Theres an argument about whether they are free willed or not, but they see nothingwrong with depriving others of theirs.

    Humanity may not like demons but they have good reason not to.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2010-11-21 at 12:27 AM.

  14. #314
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    Thrall should be able to beat some sense into Sylvanas after he is done trying to calm stuff down.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The naga attacked and sacked Dalaran udner Illidans orders. KT later sided with them.



    Noone is saying he was diplomatic.



    Maybe. There is, however, no indication that Sylvanas would have held back for anything or anyone. Nor has she held back since. Either way, Sylvanas betrayed the humans and set the stage. She proved she and her forces could not be trusted and showed that the differences between them and the Scourge, at least as far as humanity was concenred, were minimal.



    My point. I don't care what they think....child sacrifice is evil. When **I** judge what is evil, I use **my** standards. Hence, the lack of grey.

    EJL
    you mean, "To me there is no grey" to an outsider, all morals are grey, to someone who is judging based on thir society's norms, everything is black and white, would you think that child sacrifice is evil if you were brought up being told it was good?

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamG3691 View Post
    careful with things like that, a few weeks ago, I mentioned that the infinite dragonflight's intentions seemed benevolent.

    it resulted in a 30 page thread about the mechanics of time travel, speculation based on possible events, and counterring those speculations requiring us to look even further, eg. CoS: arths doesn't become LK, current scourge doesn't form, KT isn't revived, archimonde doesn't get summoned, but maybe he does by someone else? what if someone else became the new LK? and so on.

    again, be careful of "what if" style of deaths, they can derail threads SO easily

    ---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 11:29 PM ----------



    is vengance and chaos bad?
    would life exist if not for a random spark of lighnting on our primordial world supplying the energy for the first dna strand to form?

    be careful labelling chaos as an evil thing
    Chaos set in motion by a conscious thought with intent, is evil.

    Vengeance, only causes a recurring cycle of vengeance, which is in effect chaos created with intent.

    There is a fine line between justice and revenge.

    There are exceptions, but few and far between.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I must hve imagiend the game then.



    And its all true. Undeath isn't natural. The undead, as a faction, are murderers. And they engage in slavery, torture and medical experimenation upon living subjects as well. Theres an argument about whether they are free willed or not, but they see nothign wrong with depriving others of theirs.

    Humanity may not like demons but they have good reason not to.

    EJL
    but how can you deprive others of free will if you have none yourself?
    can they be accused of doing evil if they are being forced to do it?

    wow... this is getting pretty deep :P
    from the thread about whether sylvanas is a hypocrite, we've come to discussing the origins of good and evil :P

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamG3691 View Post
    it's not "there are no grey morals", it's more "there are ONLY grey morals"
    Exactly that, It's always been that way.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ndGrayMorality
    is pretty much how WoW is Post-cata, although tbh it already was ever since Vanilla.

  19. #319
    I hope Tirion wants war. I'll enjoy ending him

  20. #320
    Banned Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamG3691 View Post
    careful with things like that, a few weeks ago, I mentioned that the infinite dragonflight's intentions seemed benevolent.

    it resulted in a 30 page thread about the mechanics of time travel, speculation based on possible events, and counterring those speculations requiring us to look even further, eg. CoS: arths doesn't become LK, current scourge doesn't form, KT isn't revived, archimonde doesn't get summoned, but maybe he does by someone else? what if someone else became the new LK? and so on.

    again, be careful of "what if" style of deaths, they can derail threads SO easily
    I can't blame myself if people troll themselves, and I don't recommand you to bother as well Btw I believe Infinite Dragonflight is benevolent as well. My version is that Nozdormu got tired of simply watching over stuff while having all that power, plus the vision of his own death - so he set out to put his might to use to change history, to forcefully prevent the worst things from happening. But this is derailing.

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