Did Forsaken lore do a 180?

[Deleted]

Chaos set in motion by a conscious thought with intent, is evil.

Vengeance, only causes a recurring cycle of vengeance, which is in effect chaos created with intent.

There is a fine line between justice and revenge.

There are exceptions, but few and far between.

it depends, I like chaos because when things become too samey it gets boring, does that make me evil?

it's only evil if set in motion with EVIL intent
in most RPGs chaos is NOT evil, it's its own alignment opposed to order (you can have chaotic good, AND lawful evil) , in reality, order is nonexistant outside of quantum mechanics and absolute zero, only how much chaos there is

[GeorgeParty]

When it comes to player races, World of Warcraft is surprisingly nuanced in terms of morality. Neither the Horde nor the Alliance have exclusive claims to goodness or evil, though the tauren and the draenei (one for each side, naturally) are both pretty much objectively good. Originally the Horde were very much their namesake trope, while the Alliance were theirs. However, the Horde redeemed itself, but both sides still have problems with each other and thus fighting between them still continues.

* Interesting to see how easily you can tie each faction to Order or Chaos instead of Good and Evil like it originally was.

[Deleted]

I can't blame myself if people troll themselves, and I don't recommand you to bother as well Btw I believe Infinite Dragonflight is benevolent as well. My version is that Nozdormu got tired of simply watching over stuff while having all that power, plus the vision of his own death - so he set out to put his might to use to change history, to forcefully prevent the worst things from happening. But this is derailing.

we determined that even if they have benevolent intent, their actions would result in the world being better in the short term, but disastrous in the long term, even if theyre benevolent, they don't understand HOW far their meddling could potentially go.
nozdormu, we had no ideas, it's up to blizz about the hints they give us :P
but let's not get off track :P

[pateuvasiliu]

I would be pretty greatful for being bought back to life.

Yeah,there's nothing like seeing yourself composed of only skin and bones.Especialy if you were fat

[Haven]

The undead, as a faction, are murderers.

Humans engaged in it looooooong before Forsaken even existed. All the living have.

And they engage in slavery, torture and medical experimenation upon living subjects as well.

Living did that as well.

Theres an argument about whether they are free willed or not, but they see nothign wrong with depriving others of theirs.

All races had their slavers and murderers. Forsaken just don't pretend.

Humanity may not like demons but they have good reason not to.

The only reasonable thing. Demons are simply a destructive purposeless faction. They destroy for the sake of destruction and I still can't quite figure why they haven't started it with themselves; they can't be classified as truly chaotic beings.

[miekkagoon]

Why there are still people who can't allow a morally questionable playable faction?

I wanted to play undead for following reasons:

1st. i found bone parts and overall looks nice
2nd. After some lore studies i started loving apotecathry aspect of Forsaken
3rd. they are morally questionable faction and now i like them even more because of this

[Haven]

Chaos set in motion by a conscious thought with intent, is evil.

Vengeance, only causes a recurring cycle of vengeance, which is in effect chaos created with intent.

There is a fine line between justice and revenge.

There are exceptions, but few and far between.

Not entirely... sometimes, old things need to be destroyed, engulfed by chaos. Chaos tests life and existence, destroying the weak and rotten and clearing the space for new things, fortifying and tempering them. Even forest fire creates a bed of nutrients for the new forest. Philosophicaly speaking, any act of destruction is an act of increasing entropy, creating chaos - but it's the only way to live and consume.

---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:51 AM ----------

Why there are still people who can't allow a morally questionable playable faction?

Maybe it hurts them physically? I also still can't quite get it. Some people just can't accept something that lives by different standarts.

[Speaknoevil]

Not entirely... sometimes, old things need to be destroyed, engulfed by chaos. Chaos tests life and existence, destroying the weak and rotten and clearing the space for new things, fortifying and tempering them. Even forest fire creates a bed of nutrients for the new forest. Philosophicaly speaking, any act of destruction is an act of increasing entropy, creating chaos - but it's the only way to live and consume.

Natural entropy is not evil.

Like I stated in my earlier post, it is an awareness with the intent to create chaos that is evil.

[Deleted]

Natural entropy is not evil.

Like I stated in my earlier post, it is an awareness with the intent to create chaos that is evil.

again, would you say that a paladin causing chaos as a distraction to rescue someone, was evil?
it's not chaos being intrinsically evil, it's evil if you use it in an evil way, it's not what you do, it's HOW you do it

---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 11:56 PM ----------

Not entirely... sometimes, old things need to be destroyed, engulfed by chaos. Chaos tests life and existence, destroying the weak and rotten and clearing the space for new things, fortifying and tempering them. Even forest fire creates a bed of nutrients for the new forest. Philosophicaly speaking, any act of destruction is an act of increasing entropy, creating chaos - but it's the only way to live and consume.

---------- Post added 2010-11-21 at 02:51 AM ----------


Maybe it hurts them physically? I also still can't quite get it. Some people just can't accept something that lives by different standarts.

think of forum trolls, now imagine one of them trying to wrap their neuron around the concept of grey morality, now laugh, it's fun seeing trolls hurt themselves :P

[Speaknoevil]

again, would you say that a paladin causing chaos as a distraction to rescue someone, was evil?
it's not chaos being intrinsically evil, it's evil if you use it in an evil way, it's not what you do, it's HOW you do it

---------- Post added 2010-11-20 at 11:56 PM ----------



think of forum trolls, now imagine one of them trying to wrap their neuron around the concept of grey morality, now laugh, it's fun seeing trolls hurt themselves :P

If he does as you describe, then it ceases to be chaos at all.

It is action with a clear purpose.

And that my friend, is called order.

[Deleted]

If he does as you describe, then it ceases to be chaos at all.

It is action with a clear purpose.

And that my friend, is called order.

replace the paladin with a necromancer, and the rescue is actually an assasination of a kindly king
still order?

murder to throw a state into anarchy is also a clear purpose. is that not chaotic then?

[Oneirophobia]

I'm pretty sure Gallywix is getting the boot soon.
Everyone wants a female trade prince and last I checked there was actually a candidate in Orgimmar, although I forget her name.
Basically I think what happened was, they were already mostly done the storyline in the Goblin area and then this whole "WE WANT A FEMALE TRADE PRINCE" thing broke out amoungst the players, so they quickly ended the Goblin area with Gallywix being a dbag so they could later replace him when they decided what they were going to do about implementing a female trade prince.
Seems to make sense, I mean Thrall even says "..For now."
I mean, Thrall is generally pretty smart so I don't see why he'd let this idiot stay in power when the guy just tried to kill Thrall + the player, and enslave his entire cartel.
I'm sure Thrall sent a note to Garrosh saying "btw get rid of Gallywix ASAP before he nukes us, kthx."

[Combatbutler]

If he does as you describe, then it ceases to be chaos at all.

It is action with a clear purpose.

And that my friend, is called order.

But you cannot order chaos because in order is potential chaos and to order chaos you have to understand chaos but to understand chaos your ordered mind has to become chaos so the order you create is in reality chaos

[Deleted]

Kind of.. well Sylvanus even says it herself that their sole purpose was to take vengance on the lich king. Before wrath people had sympathy for them they were a very tragic race and the under dogs. Now they are buliding fortress have amassed a huge army and are slaughtering the alliance it's hard to feel sorry for them. As to why they've done this, Forsaken were always set up to be the baddies people who hate them are only giving a well done to blizzard. People (myself included) like to play the bad guys the Forsaken fill that role perfectly and their storyline is one of the best. Yes it has done a 180 but for all the right reasons.

[Deleted]

but how can you deprive others of free will if you have none yourself?
can they be accused of doing evil if they are being forced to do it?

wow... this is getting pretty deep :P
from the thread about whether sylvanas is a hypocrite, we've come to discussing the origins of good and evil :P

That's Havens fucking power of derailing a thread, ANY thread to a discussion on what is good or evil by making posts that are several miles long.

[Speaknoevil]

murder to throw a state into anarchy is also a clear purpose? is that not chaotic then?

Like I already said, awareness attempting to create entropy is evil.

The previously stated action taken by the hypothetical man was in the effort to retain order, with virtuous intent.

But you cannot order chaos because in order is potential chaos and to order chaos you have to understand chaos but to understand chaos your ordered mind has to become chaos so the order you create is in reality chaos

Light is not a shadow because it causes a shadow to be cast, and that is what you're implying.

[Haven]

Natural entropy is not evil.

Like I stated in my earlier post, it is an awareness with the intent to create chaos that is evil.

But what about competition? By making choices and prevailing against someone else, you inevitably cause harm. Also, chaos is destruction, and you need to destroy parasites - in all senses. Sometimes, you have to cause a ripple of chaos against yourself, to improve yourself and burn the unnecessary. Order is not good by intention, just in case; one can create harmful and, well, to put it simply, bad things (in all imaginable senses, take your pick). Intentional destruction can be benevolent.

[Deleted]

But you cannot order chaos because in order is potential chaos and to order chaos you have to understand chaos but to understand chaos your ordered mind has to become chaos so the order you create is in reality chaos

:P
that reminds me of one of the last strips of 8 bit theater :P

"Chaos, your purpose is to cause chaos, but in a universe where pure chaos reigns, everything must be uniform, everything being uniform would be ordered, therefore by fulfilling your purpose, you are in fact destroying yourself!" I... um... err.... *explodes*"

[Combatbutler]

:P
that reminds me of one of the last strips of 8 bit theater :P

"Chaos, your purpose is to cause chaos, but in a universe where pure chaos reigns, everything must be uniform, everything being uniform would be ordered, therefore by fulfilling your purpose, you are in fact destroying yourself!" I... um... err.... *explodes*"

well if you were Malkavian it would make perfect sense

[Tore]

But you cannot order chaos because in order is potential chaos and to order chaos you have to understand chaos but to understand chaos your ordered mind has to become chaos so the order you create is in reality chaos