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  1. #1

    Trading tricks for max dps

    Hello fellow Rogues,

    Let me first state that I'm not completely familiar with all the abilities of every class. Though it appears, to me, that rogues are the only class that relies on another player to actively and not passively perform an action every 30 seconds to maximize our dps and vice versa.

    Focus magic- is 30 minutes so that is set and forget.
    Dark intent- the new warlock ability is also 30 minutes.
    I'm sure there are other spells that I either do not recall or never heard of atm.

    Both of these spells last 30 minutes, proc from critical strikes from their normal rotations and do not require you to change target to activate like tricks of the trade does.
    Also the mage/warlock can cast this spell on another class that casts spells and still benefit whereas rogues require another rogue to trade with to benefit. Not to say that those abilities do not require another caster to have sufficient crit and making use of whatever crit enhancing abilities they have at their disposal.

    In 25 man raiding there most likely will be 2 or 3 rogues and they can all rotate their tricks. However in 10 man (which I intend to be doing) I'll most likely be the only rogue in the group. From personal experience my dps is noticeably lower when there is not another rogue in the raid. Also from my experience this puts a stress on the me to make sure I give my fellow raiding rogue the buff every 30 seconds. Instead of just being responsible for my own dps I now carry the burden of impacting his/her own dps. I'm tired of apologizing if i didn't use my tricks exactly at 30 seconds and did it at 35 sec so i could get off that next envenom.

    Forgive me if there has been brought up before but i could not find a threat that dealt with this specific problem with tricks of the trade and if I am incorrect and that there are other classes that suffer from this unique predicament. I am always looking to learn more about the classes I play with in raid.

    What are your thoughts on this mechanic? Is it fair that we rely on another specific player to buff us every 30 seconds. That a rogue requires specifically another rogue to boost his/her dps.

    I know that tricks of the trade was designed and built for a threat transfer and boost to the tank. However, we all know after the initial pull and if there are no adds that we never recast that on the tank unless there's a threat wipe during the encounter.

    Well anyway happy raiding!

  2. #2
    Well if you manage to macro it to who ever you want it to be given, just include it in your normal rotation and things should be fine, and if hhe complains that you were late with it for like 10 seconds, bitchslap him
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  3. #3
    At the start of a pull, and during any sort of adds/transition is the only time it's any use to a tank anymore. The threat is not permanent anymore. Unless I've been misinformed and/or suck at reading tooltips.

    Also, just put it on whichever of your teammates would benefit from it the most. Playing favorites/politics is not the way to be successful.

  4. #4
    I think TotT is gonna be the spell that allows rogues to out dps all other classes in Cataclysm because of the threat transfer and not the dps boost. Threat is going to be a very real problem and all dps will have to watch their aggro closely... rogues can deal more dps for less threat than any other class. Classes that are over powered wont be able to deal their top dps cos they will pull aggro.

  5. #5
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    I just got it macroed to my focus, and if im in a 10man as the only rogue i use it either on the MT. Or on the tank currently boss target depending on the fight. It will be a bit lower, but not alot.

  6. #6
    right now, in icc 10 th epoint to drop tott on some is not just to boost their dps, its to give you 15 energy.
    as of cataclysm: ppl can't even imagine what a huge dps boost is rogue's tricks, i've been pullin tanks from 5k dps to 10k just couse i've been usin tott every cd on him and with change of the threat transfer any good dps player will ask you to drop tott no him.
    Main Gauche -- Like xzibit would say: "I heard you like procs, so I put a proc in your proc,so you can proc while you proc.

  7. #7
    10k is a 15% increase over 5k?


    wut?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbojonno View Post
    I think TotT is gonna be the spell that allows rogues to out dps all other classes in Cataclysm because of the threat transfer and not the dps boost. Threat is going to be a very real problem and all dps will have to watch their aggro closely... rogues can deal more dps for less threat than any other class. Classes that are over powered wont be able to deal their top dps cos they will pull aggro.
    I don't hear very much about this point, but as I remember back in BC this was our greatest asset. It would be interesting if rogues' greatest strength once again becomes the fact that they can put the gas pedal to the floor the whole fight where other classes cannot because of TotT/ Feint/ Vanish. Putting a leash on other dps'ers because of threat concerns sounds more interesting than nerfing their potential dps.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivlem View Post
    I don't hear very much about this point, but as I remember back in BC this was our greatest asset. It would be interesting if rogues' greatest strength once again becomes the fact that they can put the gas pedal to the floor the whole fight where other classes cannot because of TotT/ Feint/ Vanish. Putting a leash on other dps'ers because of threat concerns sounds more interesting than nerfing their potential dps.
    Idd... cos ur max dps output will be dependant on ur threat production, so nerfs to spells and abilities will not be needed so long as they balance the threat correctly. This will most likely lead to classes that are overpowered being left out of raids if they havent played this way before because they will most likely cause wipes...

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Lemons's Avatar
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    Meh. If you're in a 10 man raid then you're dps is going to be lower period. Losing the tricks buff from another rogue is not really that different from losing any other buff because some other class/spec isn't present.

    And I don't think it's a burden at all. Most noobs don't even know that I'm tricking them at all. It's not like I've ever had someone be like "Dammit Lemons! FFS man, moar tricks! My dps is crap because of you!"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbojonno View Post
    Idd... cos ur max dps output will be dependant on ur threat production, so nerfs to spells and abilities will not be needed so long as they balance the threat correctly. This will most likely lead to classes that are overpowered being left out of raids if they havent played this way before because they will most likely cause wipes...
    They would just have to learn to be responsible for managing their threat, not be left out IMO. I thought this will be par for the course anyway in Cata raiding- not taking balls out dps for granted without a real threat consequence.

  12. #12
    I feel like it would make things easier for Tricks to increase YOUR damage when you use it, instead of whoever you use it on.

  13. #13
    Since the changes to the glyph (no longer increases duration) you're looking at 12 seconds of 15% increase every minute if it's used as soon as the CD is up every single time throughout the fight. That's a 3% dps increase if executed flawlessly. While I'm all for min/maxing things whenever possible, if you're doing 15k dps on a fight, the 3% increase works out to 450 dps. Realistically with a TotT on the tank at the pull and a little wiggle room for latency, rotation, movement, etc., it's probably around 350 dps. If 350 dps is the difference between a 10 man kill or not, odds are there are other things you could be doing better as a player/raid.

  14. #14
    I just use it in initial pulls with killing spree and/or fan of knives to give the tank a few seconds grace to build aggro after that I haven't really done it. but I haven't played since the changes.

  15. #15
    as of 4.0.1 rogue no longer deal reduced treath like before and tricks no longer gives permanent treath, we only have vnaish to reduce our treath, i think the glyphed tot should be tricking another player will give you the 15% dmg and not the person you trick, since in 10 man we are pretty much the only rogue.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire UR1L's Avatar
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    Having to trade tricks for max dps is a stupid mechanic. I hate having to rely on another rogue to tricks me so I can preform at my best.

    Vanishing after a minute or after the start of the fight has always solved threat issues. You won't have aggro problems after that unless they make threat even more of an issue than what it was in TBC.

  17. #17
    You people saying tricks swapping will allow rogues to do more dps because we can ignore threat... (i.e. Bobbo)

    You do realize the threat isn't permanent. It will come right back at you 30 seconds later. Now you could argue if you used it the exact second it came off cd theres a chance you would swing at that exact second and restart threat transfer, but what if you are on GCD? Also even doing that only allows you to drop 12 seconds of threat for the whole fight. If you are swapping with another rogue it isn't a threat reduction assuming you do relatively the same dps.

    Also it was said we have feint and vanish to drop threat. The other pure dps have threat drops too, but they're also ranged and remember ranged need more threat to pull agro than melee. I don't really think threat is going to give us any significant advantage.

    I do think TotT should be self castable though, I mean the new tigers fury is basically a self cast tricks. Seems like the original should have that option. Though I'm not necessarily opposed to the swapping buffs with another dps idea, I just don't like this implementation.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire Khallynos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farquel View Post
    I feel like it would make things easier for Tricks to increase YOUR damage when you use it, instead of whoever you use it on.
    I think that would be a little OP, frankly. I think it's an interesting mechanic the way it is, I just wish they didn't make the threat disappear after the buff went away.

    I must agree, however, that it is a bit annoying to bring two rogues to a raid just to maximize my DPS and my guild usually doesn't bother. The rogue they had before I showed up enjoys healing more anyway, so it's basically balancing me getting gear vs. a bit of a dps increase.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbojonno View Post
    I think TotT is gonna be the spell that allows rogues to out dps all other classes in Cataclysm because of the threat transfer and not the dps boost. Threat is going to be a very real problem and all dps will have to watch their aggro closely... rogues can deal more dps for less threat than any other class. Classes that are over powered wont be able to deal their top dps cos they will pull aggro.
    well thats not 100% true.
    Huntards got MD
    Palas got sanc (wich can be used on different targets)
    Locks got SS
    Shamans got Windsear (tho dosnt help much -.-)

    So no Rogues are not alone

  20. #20
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gagarin View Post
    i've been pullin tanks from 5k dps to 10k just couse i've been usin tott every cd on him
    Exaggerate much?

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