[Priest] PvE Shadow Guide (by Newnoise)

[UunaPriest]

Perhaps my tests were flawed but I see a reduction in the spell duration with varying levels of Haste doing tests similar to what you were doing. I'm curious where the difference is here.

I did notice that the combat log only shows time to the nearest whole second. So Any changes within a 1 second interval I could have easily missed... however the xperl timer for my VT also always starts at 14 (since it isn't technically 15 seconds long enough to read as such) I get this same result acrost the entire span of my gear adding one piece at a time.

I certainly never get a dip down to anything like 12 or 13 seconds by the combat log or xperl's dot tracking.

I'd be interested to know the difference as well.
However my original point regarding haste plateaus and the DOT refreshing mechanic is still valid under either scenario: As long as you are refreshing DOTs prior to the last tick, but after the tick before that, you will experience no haste plateau because refreshing the DOT will interrupt the interval between ticks (though it may decrease the interval if you have a trinket proc/heroism/etc).

[New]

I did some simcraft tests using what I believe a proper revision to the action priority list to simulate Mind Spike + Mind Blast spam during Heroism/Blood Lust by adding:

actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.mind_spike.stack>=2,if=buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/mind_spike,if=buff.bloodlust.react
actions+=/mind_blast,if=buff.shadow_orb.stack>=1&buff.empowered_shadow.remains<=gcd+0.5

This should make it so only Mind Spike and Mind Blast are being cast during Heroism/Blood Lust and only casting Mind Blast when you have 3 stacks of Mind Spike on the target. This yielded the results using the 372 ilevel BIS profile:

Normal Rotation: 29156 DPS
Mind Spike Spam During Blood Lust: 28335 DPS

Using the 359 BIS ilevel profile:

Normal Rotation = 25895 DPS
Mind Spike spam during Blood Lust = 25084 DPS

So this actually was a lot closer than I thought it would be. Obviously, do your normal priority casting through Heroism/Blood Lust, but the idea you had about Mind Spike spam was an interesting result.

I should also note, if you stop your DOTs, that means you are no longer giving your Warlock Dark Intent stacks. This will further add to the raid DPS loss than just the Shadow Priest's individual DPS loss.

---------- Post added 2011-01-05 at 10:04 PM ----------

I did notice that the combat log only shows time to the nearest whole second. So Any changes within a 1 second interval I could have easily missed... however the xperl timer for my VT also always starts at 14 (since it isn't technically 15 seconds long enough to read as such) I get this same result acrost the entire span of my gear adding one piece at a time.

I certainly never get a dip down to anything like 12 or 13 seconds by the combat log or xperl's dot tracking.

I'd be interested to know the difference as well.
However my original point regarding haste plateaus and the DOT refreshing mechanic is still valid under either scenario: As long as you are refreshing DOTs prior to the last tick, but after the tick before that, you will experience no haste plateau because refreshing the DOT will interrupt the interval between ticks (though it may decrease the interval if you have a trinket proc/heroism/etc).

I'd hate for it to be something as silly as an addon difference. I still feel I'm seeing small differences in the duration of the DOTs with varying levels of Haste. Usually these are quite small and take place in the decimal places. Should my position be true, it will still have an almost negligible effect on DPS as the gain is through racking up those decimal places over a long period of time to net yourself a GCD by having to refresh less with the durations reset. I think it is an interesting discussion, but it also gets too much attention because regardless of who is right, its really not too big a deal (ie the best opener debate). I originally put it in the guide as people routinely ask when they get more ticks on their spells and I was happy to oblige with that information.

I do welcome the discussion from you though, please don't think I'm trying to dismiss you. I thank you for being constructive and also quite nice in your replies.

[KoopDragonblight]

3% crit damage increase vs the 2% mana bonus?

If you are gemming int/haste int/spirit or pure int, this isn't even a debate. You have to go 54int 2% mana, you wont be able to activate the crit meta with gem prioritization.

[New]

Using Shadowfiend at the start will be a DPS gain as it will, more than likely, be used more times during a fight this way. More importantly, you should be pre-potting with Volcanic Potion. The additional Spell Power gained from this potion gives a boost to the damage of your Shadowfiend.

I realize there are mana implications with this so be careful in when you cast your Shadowfiend. Being OOM will hurt your DPS more than the DPS gain from the above suggestion.

[KoopDragonblight]

More importantly, you should be pre-potting with Volcanic Potion. The additional Spell Power gained from this potion gives a boost to the damage of your Shadowfiend.

Personally, I'd save your one-per-fight volcanic potion to be co-ordinated with Bloodlust. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I am pretty positive your net dps increase would be substantially higher potting for BL rather than potting for fiend.

[New]

Personally, I'd save your one-per-fight volcanic potion to be co-ordinated with Bloodlust. I don't have numbers to back it up, but I am pretty positive your net dps increase would be substantially higher potting for BL rather than potting for fiend.

That is why you PRE-pot before a boss pull, popping the potion before you get in combat. This is something all classes should be doing. By popping a potion right before a boss pull, you gain the effect of the potion while letting the potion begin its 1 minute cool down. Pre-potting is widely regarded as something everyone should do to maximize your DPS as you essentially gain the effect of 2 potions per fight. Sure you may lose a second or two of your potion at the start, but that is still 23 seconds of potion effect at the start of the fight, and another 25 seconds of potion effect 1 minute later.

The 2nd potion should be coordinated with Heroism/Blood Lust as you said.

[KoopDragonblight]

Oh wow, I had never even considered that man! TYVM! Its posts like this that make it obvious that I'm new to shadow in raid haha....healed for vanilla/tbc/wotlk for the most part, but needed a change. Thanks for the tip, and sorry!

[New]

No problem. You won't know until you hear about it, amirite? If you know someone else not doing it, pass that fact along. It can help every one of your raid member's DPS if they aren't doing it.

[Myzrael]

Hello Newnoise. Congratulations for your reward, and thanks for effort you put in gathering all info in one place.

I have few questions regarding your haste plateaus formula.

First of all, few numbers you added here are confusing me:
If 1% haste is 128.05701 rating, like in your post.

How did you get
12850.701 = Adapted from 128.5701 rating/1% haste gain?

Shouldn't it be 128.05701, and again 12805.701?

Besides that, I've tried using your formula to get desired haste % and see how you derived it into final values, but without success.
All i got were some nonsense numbers, like 0.13 (with x= 650 rating ~ 5%) and 0.18 (with x=1250 rating ~ 10%). I'm quite sure 0.13% isn't the number I'm looking for.
Could you please elaborate how you got to those numbers and what do numbers in following code mean, again.

			 +1		 +2	        +3	        +4	       +5
Vampiric Touch	   10.00% (0220)   30.00% (2588)   50.00% (4956)   70.00% (7324)
Shadow Word: Pain  08.34% (0024)   25.00% (1996)   41.67% (3969)   58.34% (5943)
Devouring Plague   06.25% (0000)   18.75% (1256)   31.25% (2736)   43.75% (4216)   56.25% (5696)

Is 10% for extra tick of VT haste needed before or after 5% from Mind Quickening and 3% from Darkness, or maybe something third? Is number in parenthesis (0220) needed haste rating, or perhaps something else?

It would be great if you could derive your formula with some custom number (like 15% haste /1920 rating) for those who's maths skills aren't as good.

Thank you for your time.
Myzrael

[New]

I realize the math equation part isn't very correct here. I wasn't exactly sure how to express it correctly mathematically so I did my best to make an equation. The difference in the 128.05701 and 12805.701 is a typo, I'll fix that.

The number in Parenthesis is the character sheet haste needed to gain the extra tick the Haste % listed is the Haste you need with character sheet Haste + Mind Quickening + Darkness.

Perhaps I do it in a very backwards way, or the formula is wrong for what it is trying to state, but I will do my best to explain it.

1256 Haste needed for 2 extra ticks on Devouring Plague
1256/12805.701 gives you your current Haste % = 0.098081315
I can't explain mathematically why you need to add the 1 but you take the above number and add 1. You then multiply by the Haste of Mind Quickening and Darkness (these are multiplicative).
1.098081315*1.05*1.03 = 1.18757
subtracting 1 to give you .18757 or 18.75%

Easy Mode

There is a simpler way of doing it that I discovered after doing the guide. Adding 3 ticks to Vampiric Touch In order to find the % Haste you need for each spell:

Base Tick Time / (Duration / (Number of ticks you want - .5*))
*the number of ticks is rounded up

3 seconds/ (15 seconds / 7.5 ticks) = 1.5
So you need 50% total Haste to get 8 ticks of Vampiric Touch (up from its original 5), or in other words, add 3 ticks to Vampiric Touch.

1.5 / 1.05 / 1.03 = 1.38692552 - 1
so if you wanted 50% total Haste, the Haste rating needed for 38.6962552% would give you 50% total.
x/128.05701 = 38.6962552
x = 4956*
*some rounding errors in the math but this should be the right number in the end

I hope this explanation hasn't lost you.

[Xelestial]

So this actually was a lot closer than I thought it would be. Obviously, do your normal priority casting through Heroism/Blood Lust, but the idea you had about Mind Spike spam was an interesting result.

Thanks for all the clarification and checking that out for me. It soothes a lot of the questions I had during Heroism.

[New]

And it will hopefully help your DPS too .

[zsun]

I realize the math equation part isn't very correct here. I wasn't exactly sure how to express it correctly mathematically so I did my best to make an equation. The difference in the 128.05701 and 12805.701 is a typo, I'll fix that.

The number in Parenthesis is the character sheet haste needed to gain the extra tick the Haste % listed is the Haste you need with character sheet Haste + Mind Quickening + Darkness.

Perhaps I do it in a very backwards way, or the formula is wrong for what it is trying to state, but I will do my best to explain it.

1256 Haste needed for 2 extra ticks on Devouring Plague
1256/12805.701 gives you your current Haste % = 0.098081315
I can't explain mathematically why you need to add the 1 but you take the above number and add 1. You then multiply by the Haste of Mind Quickening and Darkness (these are multiplicative).
1.098081315*1.05*1.03 = 1.18757
subtracting 1 to give you .18757 or 18.75%

Easy Mode

There is a simpler way of doing it that I discovered after doing the guide. Adding 3 ticks to Vampiric Touch In order to find the % Haste you need for each spell:

Base Tick Time / (Duration / (Number of ticks you want - .5*))
*the number of ticks is rounded up

3 seconds/ (15 seconds / 7.5 ticks) = 1.5
So you need 50% total Haste to get 8 ticks of Vampiric Touch (up from its original 5), or in other words, add 3 ticks to Vampiric Touch.

1.5 / 1.05 / 1.03 = 1.38692552 - 1
so if you wanted 50% total Haste, the Haste rating needed for 38.6962552% would give you 50% total.
x/128.05701 = 38.6962552
x = 4956*
*some rounding errors in the math but this should be the right number in the end

I hope this explanation hasn't lost you.

In other words the new lvl85 GCD cap will be at 4956 haste


As for the reason you need to add the 1? It is because you need it for the fact that you must take your baseline (ie. 0 haste) into account when increasing a value by a percentage. 0.098 (or 9.8%) is the actual extra haste rating you have gained. 1.098 (or 109.8%) is your actual haste when compared with normal, ie you are casting at 109.8% of normal speed.

It is the same explanation for the 3% and 5% values from talents, you must add 1 to each (hence 1.03 and 1.05) so that you are actually increasing by 3% and 5% respectively, rather than finding what is 3% of 5% of 1.098. It's the same as when you want to increase something by 20%, you multiply by 1.2 rather than 0.2.

Thanks for the haste info, it's been quite useful.

[New]

Thank you Zsun. You're excellent at picking up my slack, haha.

[Myzrael]

In the end I did it correct, just didn't know that I was supposed to convert 0.13 to 13%.
Thanks for explanation.

[Redwinds]

New:

Thank you for that idea, i will keep it in mind to up my dps a bit at the start.

KoopDragonblight:

Thank you for the input, i decided to get int/spirit and 1 pure spirit gem. My reasoning behind this is:

I followed a BIS list from Shadowpriest dot com (mmo won't let me post links yet) and updated it to include more haste/crit gear instead of spirit/hit and haste gear.

by doing this i believe i get more raw haste and can reforge the crit and socket int/spirit gems into my blue slots to get hit capped, after the patch comes out the chaotic will be used a lot more because we will only need 2 blue gems in order to activate it.

As a side note and question:

Currently in my raids, i am being beaten by a rogue and a cat druid for single target dps, the rogue's dps is 2-3k higher then mine, there is no catching up to him. ( i believe this is because 1 agi = 2ap) and he has trinkets that proc agi instead of ap. The rest of the raid goes up and down and i can usually stay on par if not slightly ahead of the dps fight.

the rogue has about the same type of gear as we have all just started raiding.

Have any of you experienced the same thing?
i realize that the blues have already said our dps is a little slow on par with everyone else, but i am wondering if thats too wide of a gap?

- Red

[New]

You're welcome.

[New]

There is a lot of discussion happening right now on what are going to be your BIS trinkets, even at the heroic and epic level. Some lists are using simcraft and others are using napkin math so there is some variation in the numbers people are coming up with. I'd say your best trinkets from heroics are Witching Hourglass and Gale of Shadows (Unless you're a Jewel Crafter and go with Figurine - Jeweled Serpent).

For deciding your best trinket from raiding, I would keep your eye on the following discussions from shadowpriest.com:

http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?p=241622#p241634
http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=30329

The rankings on each list are fairly close with some variation but both are based on solid information. Hopefully this gives you some insight on which trinkets you want to pick up.

[Redwinds]

Zadoro:

I have been thinking about the trinket question a lot recently, and i just realized why my trinket choices are off.

basically,
the normalized scale factors tell us that int is the most important state we have. so everything we choose should have int on it. hit, and haste are the next most important (taking into account that Spell power is not on any items except weapons).

Trinkets are a curve ball because they usually have 2 stats, one is a flat +stat, and another on a proc or use.

because most of our other gear has +int on it, and then a few other states like crit, spirit, or hit. it's taken for granted that it has int.

trinkets are made different and therefore can also be used to either boost our dps but a huge amount or gimp it by the same amount.
the primary state on our trinkets should be either int or Spellpower, the secondary should be haste, or spell power. or any conbination of those 2.

as for hit cap, we should be using the rest of our gear slots because they also carry int (our most important stat.)

Hope that made some sense

-Red

[New]

Did a thread get merged into this somehow? Red's posts are from another thread on the priest forums?