The balance of power between the Factions' races in BfA is even! :o

[Beloren]

The Nightborne are superior to the Highborne nowadays. We learn from quests in Azshara that the Highborne use spells that even the High/Blood Elves have outlawed hundreds of years prior. The Highborne, post-Sundering, also have had no well of power, but one singular demon to draw magic from - which wasn't even enough, so they started killing random Shen'dralar to compensate. .

Nonsense, as a proud blood elf, we are proudly highborne, though obviously not on the same level as someone who's been wielding the arcane for over 10,000 years.
Really? what spells do the Shendralar highborne use that high/blood elves have outlawed?
How does the highborne having no well of power mean they are less knowledgeable? All it means is that you don't have as much juice, but the demon was powerful enough to power their city for thousands of years, - didn't they continue learning and feverishly studying the acane even to the neglect of their own city? That to me speaks of a rather imbalanced arcane fanatic who would definitely have tons more knowledge not less. Only the blood elves and the night elves have a well now. Neither highborne nor nightborne have one, so they are basically the same level of power, and as both haven't stopped using the arcane, it won't be wrong to conclude they're roughly as knowledgeable as each other.

You have to look and see. Sometimes what you don't see is as informative as what you do see. Do not assume that because Suramar is in pristine condition and Eldre'thalas is near ruin that it automatically means the nightborne are better at magic. The fancy city is 10,000 years old and it's power source has helped them ensure it didn't fall to ruin, it has nothing to do with how much magic they know or they learnt ... the difference with dire maul is that their magic power source battery didn't last, so the city couldn't be kept up, and they stopped caring about that and decided it was okay as long as they had enough magical power for themselves and their study, even if it meant killing others - weren't we told that this psychotic behaviour was the side effect on the Prince meddling with the demon over time?

Isn't he in his right mind now we've killed the demon? I seem to recall Totheldrinn quite sane in the Death Knight artifact quest years after the cataclysm quests that have Estulan send you to kill that demon.

But what do I know.

Power is determined by how big your source is, Knowledge is determined by how much you've studied, learnt and discovered. if you have a big power source you're more powerful, not necessarily more knowledgeable, if you lose that power source you lose power, not knowledge. Both nightborne and highborne are without a power source atm.. the blood elves have the sunwell all locked up, and the night elf druids have the Well of Eternity all locked up.

[rda]

[*]Humans balanced out by the Forsaken

What? These are incomparable. (Humans are a lot stronger.)

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Actually, half of the list seems wrong to me. Dwarves on par with Tauren??? What? Tauren are just very small in numbers. Etc.

[Aeula]

You're kidding yourself if you think Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei are equal. The Sin'dorei have powerful mages, rangers, blood knights and even the blood golems on their side. Void elves don't compare.

[Beloren]

What? These are incomparable. (Humans are a lot stronger.)

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Actually, half of the list seems wrong to me. Dwarves on par with Tauren??? What? Tauren are just very small in numbers. Etc.

Nonsense, Forsaken are a lot stronger, they have a dark shadowy power that binds them together it also makes them super strong. I would say they are stronger than human, and more on the worgen level. Maybe weaker cos of the broken body, but still stronger than humans.

Humans are pathetic and weak.

[Talsar]

Nonsense, Forsaken are a lot stronger, they have a dark shadowy power that binds them together it also makes them super strong. I would say they are stronger than human, and more on the worgen level. Maybe weaker cos of the broken body, but still stronger than humans.

Humans are pathetic and weak.

That's why undercity gets wrekt next expac hey, they're so powerful they decided to lose their capitol as a show of power lul.

A lot of horde fanboys in this thread trying to make their races seem more powerful than they actually are.
If blood elves were so powerful they wouldn't have had their asses booted out of Dalaran and then cowered in their city while Garrosh treated them like shit. Weak race.

[Deleted]

The alliance is far bigger in terms of numbers, it isn't close. But the forsaken are much more powerful than the other races, and could be considered their own faction.

[laplacedemon]

When we have mana bombs that can demolish entire cities and spaceships, I don't understand why people talk about numbers.

[Pendraeg]

There is a gigantic population disparity between the Alliance and Horde. There's a balance to that, however (I'll get to it in a minute).
Some basic assumptions:
We're limited to reasonable ecological pressures.
Except where obvious (Hozen and Night Elves on opposite ends of the spectrum), reasonable generation times are ~20 years.
We're ~30 years from the original opening of the Dark Portal.
Horde numbers first:
Tauren were on the verge of extinction on Kalimdor prior to joining the Horde.
Only a relatively small percentage of the Orcs in Draenor actually came across and became the Horde on Azeroth.
The tribe of the Darkspear Trolls were on the verge of extinction due to predations of the murlocs. (no, really)
The population of the Forsaken is limited to those humans who were raised by the Lich King and found self-awareness in Lordaeron and have no reproductive capacity.
The Blood Elves are a refugee race, those left from Quel'thalas after Arthas's attack.
Goblins are all from Kezan and part of the Bilgewater Cartel. A large percentage of their population was destroyed in the volcanic eruption that forced them off Kezan. The other cartels are all Neutral and can't be counted.
Zandalari trolls may be more populous, we just simply don't have the information at this time, but given it is an island (as in not a continent) and still fairly wild, we can assume that the population isn't gigantic.
Nightborne. We don't really have a good gauge on this population, but it isn't large. Given the reliance on Arcwine prior to the destruction of the Nightwell, one can assume there is a pretty hard limit on the population that Suramar can support.
Highmountain Tauren. This population is fairly small, as we're really only talking about 5 tribe/clan/villages on a mountainside. Ecologically, the area just wouldn't support that many.

Alliance
Humans are the vast majority of the Alliance. Stormwind (New Stormwind, that is) is simply larger than almost all the other capital cities combined, and that doesn't include all the other fortresses and outposts out there. Remember, Humans were basically what humanity is today on Earth not even 30 years prior to current.
Dwarves could probably match the Orc numbers. Ironforge is a large citadel and there's frankly no environmental pressure to limit the dwarven population.
Night Elves are not numerous. Remember, they're a "live in nature" crunchy group and extremely long lived (so fertility rates would be low).
Gnomes were probably more numerous than the Dwarves before the disaster of Gnomergan. Today, they're like the goblins. A refugee race.
There aren't a lot of Draenei. Twice exiled refugees, there's just not going to be many of them.
Worgen are self-limiting and the remains of a destroyed kingdom (similar to the Forsaken).
Void Elves just simply don't have the numbers to pull from. High Elves (non-Blood Elf Quel'dorei) are a very small percentage.
Dark Iron Dwarves are interesting, but I don't think they have the numbers either, given their environment.
Lightforged Draenei aren't going to be many. They're basically the the Spec Ops of the Draenei and living in enemy territory.

Oddities:
Pandarens can be assumed to be balanced between the factions. If anything, given the actions of Garrosh on Pandaria, more would likely be Alliance rather than Horde, but we'll assume equal.
I'm going to ignore the Taunka, Jinyu, Tuskarr, and Hozen simply because they're not all that populous.

So, here's where we come to balance: population vs. fighting force. Most of the Orcs that came through the portal were a fighting force. So, while they're outnumbered 10 to 1 by humans, they're more effective percentage-wise and are bigger and stronger 1 to 1. Some of the Horde races breed faster and have more children than the Alliance races. Goblins and Trolls specifically. That's balanced by the longer lived races of the Alliance.

[Beloren]

There is a gigantic population disparity between the Alliance and Horde. There's a balance to that, however (I'll get to it in a minute).
Some basic assumptions:
We're limited to reasonable ecological pressures.
Except where obvious (Hozen and Night Elves on opposite ends of the spectrum), reasonable generation times are ~20 years.
We're ~30 years from the original opening of the Dark Portal.
Horde numbers first:
Tauren were on the verge of extinction on Kalimdor prior to joining the Horde.
Only a relatively small percentage of the Orcs in Draenor actually came across and became the Horde on Azeroth.
The tribe of the Darkspear Trolls were on the verge of extinction due to predations of the murlocs. (no, really)
The population of the Forsaken is limited to those humans who were raised by the Lich King and found self-awareness in Lordaeron and have no reproductive capacity.
The Blood Elves are a refugee race, those left from Quel'thalas after Arthas's attack.
Goblins are all from Kezan and part of the Bilgewater Cartel. A large percentage of their population was destroyed in the volcanic eruption that forced them off Kezan. The other cartels are all Neutral and can't be counted.
Zandalari trolls may be more populous, we just simply don't have the information at this time, but given it is an island (as in not a continent) and still fairly wild, we can assume that the population isn't gigantic.
Nightborne. We don't really have a good gauge on this population, but it isn't large. Given the reliance on Arcwine prior to the destruction of the Nightwell, one can assume there is a pretty hard limit on the population that Suramar can support.
Highmountain Tauren. This population is fairly small, as we're really only talking about 5 tribe/clan/villages on a mountainside. Ecologically, the area just wouldn't support that many.

Alliance
Humans are the vast majority of the Alliance. Stormwind (New Stormwind, that is) is simply larger than almost all the other capital cities combined, and that doesn't include all the other fortresses and outposts out there. Remember, Humans were basically what humanity is today on Earth not even 30 years prior to current.
Dwarves could probably match the Orc numbers. Ironforge is a large citadel and there's frankly no environmental pressure to limit the dwarven population.
Night Elves are not numerous. Remember, they're a "live in nature" crunchy group and extremely long lived (so fertility rates would be low).
Gnomes were probably more numerous than the Dwarves before the disaster of Gnomergan. Today, they're like the goblins. A refugee race.
There aren't a lot of Draenei. Twice exiled refugees, there's just not going to be many of them.
Worgen are self-limiting and the remains of a destroyed kingdom (similar to the Forsaken).
Void Elves just simply don't have the numbers to pull from. High Elves (non-Blood Elf Quel'dorei) are a very small percentage.
Dark Iron Dwarves are interesting, but I don't think they have the numbers either, given their environment.
Lightforged Draenei aren't going to be many. They're basically the the Spec Ops of the Draenei and living in enemy territory.

Oddities:
Pandarens can be assumed to be balanced between the factions. If anything, given the actions of Garrosh on Pandaria, more would likely be Alliance rather than Horde, but we'll assume equal.
I'm going to ignore the Taunka, Jinyu, Tuskarr, and Hozen simply because they're not all that populous.

So, here's where we come to balance: population vs. fighting force. Most of the Orcs that came through the portal were a fighting force. So, while they're outnumbered 10 to 1 by humans, they're more effective percentage-wise and are bigger and stronger 1 to 1. Some of the Horde races breed faster and have more children than the Alliance races. Goblins and Trolls specifically. That's balanced by the longer lived races of the Alliance.

Didn't someone post something about the Orcs reproducing extremely quickly and having accelerated growth for their newborn or something like that?

Also aren't night elves nearly extinct too? Lost a lot of numbers both living and dream ones in the defeat of the legion in WC3, further decimated in Cataclysm by both the cataclysm and Garrosh's invasion, and literally have no army to show for it in SoO and Legion - they seem as small as the blood elves.

Bilgewater goblins have more, Kezan is an instance in BfA - so while we are only aware of those who made it on the boats, remember undermine still stands and goblins supposedly breed like rabbits.

Humans - how many humans are there? I mean stormwind humans? There kingdom has sort of recovered from near annihilation in WC1, how many should they be. Other human kingdoms like Arator, Alterac and Lordaeron are in tatters.

Forsaken - numbers are less cos while Arthas raised myriad undead from all the Loradaeron populace only a fraction of those were liberated by Sylvannas, but then she gets the Valky'r to keep raising more in cataclysm - the war on Outland, Northrend and the cataclysm would have provided more soldiers, but obviously without reproduction she has to look at the long term solution.

Dark Irons - not sure how many of those - we do defeat them in BRD, but it's not genocide, enough survive to be a contending force with a voice in the 3 clans meeting, how many we don't now really.

Blizzard is so vague with number - I wonder why. Also can there be any more than a handful of Demon Hunters or DKs? like really?

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That's why undercity gets wrekt next expac hey, they're so powerful they decided to lose their capitol as a show of power lul.

A lot of horde fanboys in this thread trying to make their races seem more powerful than they actually are.
If blood elves were so powerful they wouldn't have had their asses booted out of Dalaran and then cowered in their city while Garrosh treated them like shit. Weak race.

that's just blizzard bad writing not factoring their own lore and making humans the be all and end all powerful race. They can't decide if human is the average or the super power like in Elderscrolls. From racial descriptions in the lore, they are definitely the average ones, but from plot armor/weapons - they just keep winning and doing feats that should be impossible tot hem or far better and more suited to be accomplished by other raes around them. but bias much when they keep using humans? We al know, don't deny.

[Pendraeg]

Didn't someone post something about the Orcs reproducing extremely quickly and having accelerated growth for their newborn or something like that?

Also aren't night elves nearly extinct too? Lost a lot of numbers both living and dream ones in the defeat of the legion in WC3, further decimated in Cataclysm by both the cataclysm and Garrosh's invasion, and literally have no army to show for it in SoO and Legion - they seem as small as the blood elves.

Bilgewater goblins have more, Kezan is an instance in BfA - so while we are only aware of those who made it on the boats, remember undermine still stands and goblins supposedly breed like rabbits.

Humans - how many humans are there? I mean stormwind humans? There kingdom has sort of recovered from near annihilation in WC1, how many should they be. Other human kingdoms like Arator, Alterac and Lordaeron are in tatters.

Forsaken - numbers are less cos while Arthas raised myriad undead from all the Loradaeron populace only a fraction of those were liberated by Sylvannas, but then she gets the Valky'r to keep raising more in cataclysm - the war on Outland, Northrend and the cataclysm would have provided more soldiers, but obviously without reproduction she has to look at the long term solution.

Dark Irons - not sure how many of those - we do defeat them in BRD, but it's not genocide, enough survive to be a contending force with a voice in the 3 clans meeting, how many we don't now really.

Blizzard is so vague with number - I wonder why. Also can there be any more than a handful of Demon Hunters or DKs? like really?

Before I go race by race, I want to bring up about breeding. There's a reason I brought up that the Dark Portal only opened 30 years ago. The Cataclysm is within a few years of the present. Regardless of breed rate, there hasn't been enough time to replenish stock, as it were.

In order:

Yes, the orcs had some children accelerated. However, that was the Blackrock clan, as in no longer part of the current Horde.

Yes, Night Elves are very limited in number. As I mentioned. They're a long lived race anyway, so they're not going to breed quickly. That's not the way nature works.

With the Goblins, we're going to see what happens with Kezan, but, until we have other information, we're going to have to assume those still on the island aren't part of the Horde, else why would it be an instance?

For Humans, remembers, Stormwind is the result of all the surviving humans from all the kingdoms on Azeroth. Humans not turned in Lordaeron, those left from Arathor and Alterac, and any booted from Dalaran. Original docs call it around 200,000, which is about the size of all the other capital cities combined. And now it looks like Kul Tiras is rejoining the fray. This makes sense, if you think about it. Before 30 years ago, Humans controlled all of the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdore was basically all wilderness. The dwarves and High Elves were allies, but almost afterthoughts. The Trolls, all of the trolls, not just the Dark Spear, were annoyances, not real threats.

Forsaken do have the Valkyr now, yes, but, again, we're looking at limited time (at most, less than 5 years) and limited resources. There were only 9 Val'kyr that joined the Forsaken, one Annhylde, sacrificed herself immediately. She lost 3 more in Silverpine forest, Agatha, Arthura, and Daschla, when they use their lifeforce to fix her after Godfrey kills her at the assault on Gilneas. That leaves 5. That's why she wanted Eyir and why Genn shattering the Soulcage lantern was so pivotal.

Dark Iron dwarves? Like I said before, who knows, but I don't expect them to be that many. There are enough to give the Ironforge dwarves pause without the Wildhammers (before the Council of the Three Hammers), but who knows.

And yes, Demon Hunters and Death Knights are limited in number. That's the very reason they're "hero" classes.

Don't you guys actually read the lore?

[mickybrighteyes]

Actually they may even exceed them. Dire Maul didn't have a nightwell to power it remember, it fell to ruin because the demon over millnenia eventually reversed teh power dynamic and the elves cared more about studying the arcane than looking after the city. Not because they weren't skilled at magic or were stuck in old magic or anything like that. The kaldorei empire level of magic 10k years ago was something else, today's world paled in comparison, they had and knew stuff which ahs never been recovered to an extent that only the highborne and nightborne would know, and the highborne and nightborne are the only ones in cities that endured after the sundering. Remember Dire Maul is not in total ruin, it is in ruins, but it's more like a delapidated oun cared for sort of way, with the power off.

And the highborne unlike the nightborne had access t the outside world, and did face challenegs, they've re-engaged with society for much longer than the nightborne so they would most likely have an advantage over them. As for the FArondis Highborne, I would think they would be hte only ones who haven't made porogres in 10k years, hwoever they would be fully familiar and skilled in the knowledge they knew, and probalby learnt a few knew hthings, but inconsequential, whatevr they lack i'm sure the highborne from the shen'dralar would update them.

wat... Dire Maul was a ruined city inhabited by a faction of elves... AND ogres and demons and elementals. The elves only really inhabit one section. IF it was in it's prime and fully held by elves... your argument would make more sense. As it's already ruined and the elves basically only reside in that one section adjacent to the area with Immolthar... Again, unless they grossly fucked up the scale of the place and aren't showing us the full extent of the Shendralar, there's no way they're coming even close to the level of the nightborne. (and that's implying that the nightborne far exceed the shendralar).

[gcsmith]

The voiceline she gave in this video makes me feel like she wants to go after the Alliance for more Forsaken. "I will grow the ranks of the Forsaken one way or another."

While I don't want to see that happen, it would definitely lead to her own downfall. After the acceptance of Death Knights, I think Anduin would happily accept an army of never sleeping or breathing agents to serve against the Horde. Especially since she seems to care about free will.

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Before I go race by race, I want to bring up about breeding. There's a reason I brought up that the Dark Portal only opened 30 years ago. The Cataclysm is within a few years of the present. Regardless of breed rate, there hasn't been enough time to replenish stock, as it were.

In order:

Yes, the orcs had some children accelerated. However, that was the Blackrock clan, as in no longer part of the current Horde.

Yes, Night Elves are very limited in number. As I mentioned. They're a long lived race anyway, so they're not going to breed quickly. That's not the way nature works.

With the Goblins, we're going to see what happens with Kezan, but, until we have other information, we're going to have to assume those still on the island aren't part of the Horde, else why would it be an instance?

For Humans, remembers, Stormwind is the result of all the surviving humans from all the kingdoms on Azeroth. Humans not turned in Lordaeron, those left from Arathor and Alterac, and any booted from Dalaran. Original docs call it around 200,000, which is about the size of all the other capital cities combined. And now it looks like Kul Tiras is rejoining the fray. This makes sense, if you think about it. Before 30 years ago, Humans controlled all of the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdore was basically all wilderness. The dwarves and High Elves were allies, but almost afterthoughts. The Trolls, all of the trolls, not just the Dark Spear, were annoyances, not real threats.

Forsaken do have the Valkyr now, yes, but, again, we're looking at limited time (at most, less than 5 years) and limited resources. There were only 9 Val'kyr that joined the Forsaken, one Annhylde, sacrificed herself immediately. She lost 3 more in Silverpine forest, Agatha, Arthura, and Daschla, when they use their lifeforce to fix her after Godfrey kills her at the assault on Gilneas. That leaves 5. That's why she wanted Eyir and why Genn shattering the Soulcage lantern was so pivotal.

Dark Iron dwarves? Like I said before, who knows, but I don't expect them to be that many. There are enough to give the Ironforge dwarves pause without the Wildhammers (before the Council of the Three Hammers), but who knows.

And yes, Demon Hunters and Death Knights are limited in number. That's the very reason they're "hero" classes.

Don't you guys actually read the lore?

She lost a more in WPL. The alliance kill a couple in the questing there.

[Nuba]

alliance still loses all BGs idk why you guys arguing

[Friendlyimmolation]

While I don't want to see that happen, it would definitely lead to her own downfall. After the acceptance of Death Knights, I think Anduin would happily accept an army of never sleeping or breathing agents to serve against the Horde. Especially since she seems to care about free will.

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She lost a more in WPL. The alliance kill a couple in the questing there.

Lesser Val’kyr are created by the main ones and don’t count towards “the nine”

[gcsmith]

Lesser Val’kyr are created by the main ones and don’t count towards “the nine”

If she can make more lesser vrykul, why is she worried? Forsaken aren't at any risk of dying out then...

[Friendlyimmolation]

If she can make more lesser vrykul, why is she worried? Forsaken aren't at any risk of dying out then...

Obviously lesser valkyr are not permanent

[huth]

Don't you guys actually read the lore?

THis is one of the reasons why i think we really need a timeskip of some sort. We have way to many worldshattering events in too short a time.

Goblins are known for explosive breeding(and equally explosive dying, albeit more literally. Which is why they breed so fast, i suppose), though.

[Pendraeg]

THis is one of the reasons why i think we really need a timeskip of some sort. We have way to many worldshattering events in too short a time.

Goblins are known for explosive breeding(and equally explosive dying, albeit more literally. Which is why they breed so fast, i suppose), though.

Sure, but then we'd have a bunch of goblin infants, toddlers at best. Doesn't do much for the Horde army of today.

[Beloren]

wat... Dire Maul was a ruined city inhabited by a faction of elves... AND ogres and demons and elementals. The elves only really inhabit one section. IF it was in it's prime and fully held by elves... your argument would make more sense. As it's already ruined and the elves basically only reside in that one section adjacent to the area with Immolthar... Again, unless they grossly fucked up the scale of the place and aren't showing us the full extent of the Shendralar, there's no way they're coming even close to the level of the nightborne. (and that's implying that the nightborne far exceed the shendralar).

Ogres only came into the fray 40 years ago, and the lore in the instance suggests that they stayr/high elf meddling in the eastwing is also quite new.Altho Dire Maul could have been slowly falling to ruin over a much longer period of time, it's unwelcome occupants are only a recent addition, probably as the last of the magical wards denying access to anyone fell/

The way I see it, they were soooo obsessed with the arcane, they wouldn't have noticed or cared if anyone was around unless the magical flow as interrupted. I think others amongst htem like those who ally with the night elves realized how unsustainable staying there would be, they are the ones that send you to kill the demon so they can actually restore the place.

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THis is one of the reasons why i think we really need a timeskip of some sort. We have way to many worldshattering events in too short a time.

Goblins are known for explosive breeding(and equally explosive dying, albeit more literally. Which is why they breed so fast, i suppose), though.

Agreed, it's gotten far too unrealistic/ And maybe if they define thigns better next time, they'd have to manage the story better seeing they can't and shouldn't be pulling numbers out of thin air.

[sam86]

'humans' balanced out by forsaken ? Stormwind alone has more ppl than entire horde combined, heck Stormwind alone has more dwarfs than IF, more nelfs than Darnassus, more high elves than anyone else in Azeroth for example
Stormwind at its peek had over 200000 citizens, to give u compare Thunderbluff had 6k, just 6000, also those numbers are all 'pre-vanilla', and we know that stormwind had a massive lose of at least over 20000 in Northrend war, it still doesn't change that Stormwind in terms of numbers outnumber the entire horde combined
there is a reason why alliance can fight the horde even if they have a joke of front line
Humans reproduce like rabbits (like irl, we are getting 7.2 billion and still increasing way too much), no race even close to humans numbers alone, and alliance btw has more than just Stormwind, Dalaran yeah wasn't hostile to Horde in Legion but that because alliance and horde were best buddies during legion era, Dalaran is still an alliance nation

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Forsaken also are one of least races, they are the ppl who got freed from the Scourge, they are extreme minority, and according to Fresh, lot of forsaken suicided or accepted their 'beloved' ones humans treatment (which was burn alive on sight) for the horrible 'crime' of dare be killed by Scourge and risen - against their will - as undead and break free from the Lich King enslavement, Orcs are the most number race in all horde, and even them they are still too few - also more than any other alliance race in numbers - in compare to the rabbits reproduction of humans

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Forsaken also are one of least races, they are the ppl who got freed from the Scourge, they are extreme minority, and according to Fresh, lot of forsaken suicided or accepted their 'beloved' ones humans treatment (which was burn alive on sight) for the horrible 'crime' of dare be killed by Scourge and risen - against their will - as undead and break free from the Lich King enslavement, Orcs are the most number race in all horde, and even them they are still too few - also more than any other alliance race in numbers - in compare to the rabbits reproduction of humans