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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    I've got a pretty good grasp at them, thanks. Stats is just probability and only a precursor to calculus. If I didn't make it through mat536 without an understanding and ability to apply concepts, I wouldn't have gotten in or through engineering school. Doesn't matter though. It has nothing to do with skewing polling results/flawed poll to begin with.

    I'd like to ask though, who isn't biased? Is there or has there been a single individual putting forth debate from any angle without believing in any way that they are right? I'm not sure why you even mentioned this. I've certainly not hid my beliefs anywhere.
    Let's first discuss problem with your understanding of the poll. You got it wrong. You concluded there is 63% support of not changing the game. Which is factually wrong, because you can't draw this sort of conclusion from that poll - it was never asked. The overall question of the poll is "What changes you want see in classic?" And using your own logic, the conclusion is, that from all features in question, people want change 37% of them, 63% keep as it was in Vanilla - and this is very different picture. So maybe you have good grasp of statistics, but you got this one completely wrong.

    Even what I said is not actually 100% correct, because lot of questions are still inside the margin of error, it can go either way. So only thing we can really say is that people want change some things in classic and many questions are very polarized, so this is up to discussion.

    For bias thing..well, everyone is biased, but that's beauty of science and statistics. You can believe what you want, you can read statistics in many ways to somehow fit it into your bias and agenda, but there is always only one correct way, how to read it - what poll is telling - there is no space for arguing, because everything is in the poll. And you somehow want twist it into something else, you even used democrats and republicans into it and how they look at polls without - it just show you don't understand it at all because these parties are always trying twists facts into their agenda.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    Let me put it in another perspective.

    How many times in the past month in a half do you think i alone have seen threads asking for transmog?
    Why do you care? Not everyone sits on forum and read everything. Maybe someone has this awesome idea that transmog in Classic would be awesome, want ask the community without realizing it was asked 100 times just this week alone and it is in fact shit idea. You can tell him, he should just use search feature but even this is flawed, because necroing old threads could get you banned. If you have no nerves for these things, you shouldn't be on forum anyway. You made your point clear, you want Classic to be pure Vanilla.. alright, noted, now if you don't want discuss it any further, just don't join threads like this. People go into these thread to just shut them down and attacking posters in the process.
    Last edited by ManiaCCC; 2017-12-27 at 11:36 AM.

  2. #1042
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    Doth thou jest mi'lord?

    63% of non-patch timing related changes in favor of "no".

    Cherry picking guild bank and periodical changes when you know damn well those are not at all what is being asked for. Where are the ten threads and countless posts asking for guild bank? Where are the ten threads and countless posts asking for continued class balancing post Naxx? Don't bother searching. You know they don't exist. I know they don't exist. Everyone here knows they don't exist.
    37% is nothing according to you.

    You are the one picking and chosing wich question is relevant or not, you are the one trying to ignore results that doesn't fit your narative.

    You are the one who wanted to use this poll to prove your point, and when you realize it doesn't, you start talking about how to twist or ignore results you don't like.

    You, sir, are full of shit. Bad faith incarnated. The poll results are terrible for purists trying to prove that a majority refuse some change. "Oh there is only two questions out of 27 with 50%, let's ignore these two and claim everybody want no change at all!" GTFO

    You can't wrap your head around the idea that someone might want one specific change but dont care much about any other. I don't care about a lot of stuff but really like xmog. For the OP it's dual spec, but he hates xmog. The poll show that 50% are ok with some of the big changes purists are losing their mind on. Deal with it!

    Things have to be black or white or it's too complicated for you it seems. So yeah lets say everybody agree on no change, even when 50% are asking for something we never had during vanilla in a poll.... its easier to grasp for small minded people in an echo chamber.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Groh View Post
    37% is nothing according to you.

    You are the one picking and chosing wich question is relevant or not, you are the one trying to ignore results that doesn't fit your narative.
    He interpreted the poll in a wrong way. That's the main culprit of his argument.

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    He interpreted the poll in a wrong way. That's the main culprit of his argument.
    Except that I didn't. That's not the only way in which I looked at the poll, it was just one way to demonstrate a point. And that's exactly where you're getting all of that wrong. Polls are routinely tabulated in this same way and a myriad of data is formed outside of a single poll question itself and you're completely saying that isn't the case. You couldn't be anymore wrong about that. If you've taken even any mid level math, you know you're being intelligently dishonest at this point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Groh View Post
    37% is nothing according to you.

    You are the one picking and chosing wich question is relevant or not, you are the one trying to ignore results that doesn't fit your narative.

    You are the one who wanted to use this poll to prove your point, and when you realize it doesn't, you start talking about how to twist or ignore results you don't like.

    You, sir, are full of shit. Bad faith incarnated. The poll results are terrible for purists trying to prove that a majority refuse some change. "Oh there is only two questions out of 27 with 50%, let's ignore these two and claim everybody want no change at all!" GTFO

    You can't wrap your head around the idea that someone might want one specific change but dont care much about any other. I don't care about a lot of stuff but really like xmog. For the OP it's dual spec, but he hates xmog. The poll show that 50% are ok with some of the big changes purists are losing their mind on. Deal with it!

    Things have to be black or white or it's too complicated for you it seems. So yeah lets say everybody agree on no change, even when 50% are asking for something we never had during vanilla in a poll.... its easier to grasp for small minded people in an echo chamber.
    I asked you a question and you have yet to answer it. What % of individual votes, or topic majority, or any such statistic to warrant is "something"? And who are you decide what the cut off should be for that?

    Define what a purist is. I know you've got some crazy idea that it means something that it actually doesn't and therein lies the problem with every single post you make. I'm a purist, and yet I don't care if toggle graphics get put in. I don't care if content after Naxx is eventually released - as long as it doesn't go beyond the bounds of vanilla (gear ilvl / level cap). I don't care about guild bank. But go on, tell me I'm not a purist.

    Again, these are topics that generally the boogeyman purist that you keep referring to, that doesn't ever show up (hint, you can't even clearly define what a purist is), aren't even being fucking discussed.

    I'll be awaiting your next sperg-out.

  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    Except that I didn't. That's not the only way in which I looked at the poll, it was just one way to demonstrate a point. And that's exactly where you're getting all of that wrong. Polls are routinely tabulated in this same way and a myriad of data is formed outside of a single poll question itself and you're completely saying that isn't the case. You couldn't be anymore wrong about that. If you've taken even any mid level math, you know you're being intelligently dishonest at this point.
    .
    That's not true at all - you can't look at polls and facts from different angles to draw different conclusions. While polls are used many times to assume wide spectrum of things, it is never factual. It is speculative. While it has it's own place in statistics, it is not used in any way as proof.. And aside of this , even your assumptions are too off. You are demonstrating point byt not using any facts, you misinterpreted (yes, you did - period) the poll and honestly buddy, you don't even make a sense.

    You are spewing speculations, I am just telling you, what is in the poll. And frankly, you are just wrong.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    That's not true at all - you can't look at polls and facts from different angles to draw different conclusions. While polls are used many times to assume wide spectrum of things, it is never factual. It is speculative. While it has it's own place in statistics, it is not used in any way as proof.. And aside of this , even your assumptions are too off. You are demonstrating point byt not using any facts, you misinterpreted (yes, you did - period) the poll and honestly buddy, you don't even make a sense.

    You are spewing speculations, I am just telling you, what is in the poll. And frankly, you are just wrong.
    Here's the thing. You can look at polls from different angles and draw different conclusions. It happens all of the time. With every poll. Analysts do this and they do it so that polling fits the view that they want to present. Or are you going to argue against reality and tell me that this doesn't happen, isn't an industry norm within analytics, while not be able to substantiate any poll where this doesn't happen?

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    Except it isn't a "Period. End of discussion." or else these forums would be pointless. You REALLY need to go back and listen to what Blizz has said about taking feedback and asking for ideas.

    Also, no. The people that are diehard for Vanilla are NOT just debating which patch to drop, they are very much split over many issues and you are being ignorant if you state otherwise.
    They haven't said anything. They're LOOKING for feedback. They aren't ASKING you shit, mate. There is a difference here because they're looking at people who play on Private Servers personal experience.


    Again, you think this server is about you, or me. It's not. It never has been. Quit pretending it is. It's like having input on wheelchair design when you're not 1.) an engineer or 2.) handicapped. Neither apply to you(unless you are, then truly sorry), and won't matter whatever public opinion piece they release.

    Sorry, I don't look at disproportionate desires to the majority of the complaints. I take a pretty active role in reading the community. The rift is caused, again, by which patch to drop. The majority of the classic community read what Blizzard stated about Vanilla, directly, and moved past the talking point of "What QoL additions WON'T be added!" into "Which patch is more pure". That's not ignorance, you're just ignorable at this point because we've moved past this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We heard you loud and clear. Vanilla is Vanilla...

    YOU guys just keep bringing up the hurt because you want to force private server players to participate in an environment they do not. I honestly think that is WAY more petty than the entitled jerks who say play retail(which honestly, are more equivalent to the trolls saying "i hope it fails". It's the same group of people). It's a version of the game they're remaking to capture the subs of those who left and play on private servers. Let them have their fun and piss off if you don't like it. Their numbers honestly don't need you, me, JoeSchmoe, or 99% of the people who post on here to be successful. They are successful, their servers are active with plenty of people who play daily, and they do love the game in all it's broken glory and early 2000's graphics.

    Sorry you're wrong on almost every level though. It was a fun conversation to have helped you out understand better. Hopefully when you encounter forum trolls(which there are plenty) you'll just pass by without getting too enraged in the future. Just know, this isn't about you. Or me. Or him. Or her. Or them. Or us. It's 100%, solely, without a doubt, unequivocally, undeniably, certainly, positive, about these people who Blizzard wants money from again. Our banter, comical speeches, slurs and racial epitaphs are only for our amusement.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by evogsr View Post
    Here's the thing. You can look at polls from different angles and draw different conclusions. It happens all of the time. With every poll. Analysts do this and they do it so that polling fits the view that they want to present. Or are you going to argue against reality and tell me that this doesn't happen, isn't an industry norm within analytics, while not be able to substantiate any poll where this doesn't happen?
    You have to NOT interpret it wrong. Again, while your observation is correct, conclusion is not. It seems you are not analyst, nor you have any experience on that field.

    But let me bit a bullet once again.

    You are saying, based on that poll, it could be interpreted, that most people are for NOT changing anything for Classic servers?

  9. #1049
    *Looks at OP with less than 100 posts*

    How did this obvious slide thread get to 57 pages?

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    And people like you claiming that any change 100% totally WILL lead to tons of other changes, is getting old and plain wrong as well.
    No it isn't.

    Think about it just one second longer. WHY is the game what it is NOW? Has the game been PERFECT in Vanilla, BC, WotLK, Cata, MoP, WoD, Legion and will it be in BfA? NO. Has the gameplay been different in EVERY expansion? YES.

    Due to CHANGES. CHANGES that constantly build up on each other.

    Or another proof: You can't introduce LfD with one viable tank spec. You can't increase bag sizes without making an entire ressource (soul shards and arrows) totally obsolet for its existence (thats one reason why they got removed/reworked), and you can bet that MANA will be removed sooner or later too 'cause its more or less working like FOCUS atm and its existence is worthless.

    I don't get it why people can't understand that changes are made in a big picture and that EVERY change has an impact 'cause THATS THE FUCKING POINT of making changes. If a change has no impact there is no need for a change, never.

    Thats a logical proof that you are wrong. Believe it or not, it's true and indiscussable. It's like saying the earth is flat. Believe it if you want too, but don't tell me that your false truth is real if there are so many REAL things out there that show the opposite and are not just THEORY or wishful thinking.

  11. #1051
    I'd imagine they will make a number of changes to eliminate support needs. loot trading windows, quest trackers, and so forth, are well within the realm of possibility

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by rewhaha View Post
    I'd imagine they will make a number of changes to eliminate support needs. loot trading windows, quest trackers, and so forth, are well within the realm of possibility
    I hope they don't integrate a quest tracking system. Read the dang quest log.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    I hope they don't integrate a quest tracking system. Read the dang quest log.
    Back in the day ticketing GMs to sort out your quests, items, sequences, yada yada, was pretty common. I would imagine that preventing support tickets is more important than vanilla purity.

  14. #1054
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AceofH View Post
    I hope they don't integrate a quest tracking system. Read the dang quest log.
    I would guess this is one of the things the people they're hiring are going to do. They need to integrate the game into the new support model. They can't have GM's logging into servers to manually sort stuff out - all that is done by remote call-center, Blizzard fired their GM's long time ago. They also need to integrate the old account / billing system into battle.net.

    I've always thought the biggest challenge of making classic work is how corporate Blizzard has changed over the years. The in-game issues are easy to solve (I mean, buch of amateurs could run/develop Nost just fine, it's not that hard), but the enterprise integration will take some time.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilkarik View Post
    While there are some quality of life changes that I think the general pro-classic community wouldn't mind, I think the second that we allow even one change different from the original game, it gives footing to the pro-legion crowd in classic to have a platform to ask for the things that cause real problems like lfd/lfr/groupfinder/flying etc. Its like being tempted by the devil type of deal, say no to everything he says
    i really hope they implement dungeonfinder

  16. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by rewhaha View Post
    It's pretty annoying that the smallest features means you're a retail scrub. Is there any room for a nuanced view of the issues?

    aoe looting won't break the game
    dual spec won't break the game


    I MEAN DO YOU EXPECT BLIZZARD TECHS TO START DOING LOOT ERROR TICKETS MANUALLY AGAIN? I GUARANTEE THEY'LL ADD THE 2 HOUR LOOT TRADING WINDOW. JUST SAYIN

    I do agree that these things were good. True.

    BUT

    The whole POINT of a Classic server is to make it 100% the way it was. WITH THE BAD THINGS. I rather have an original part-shit game than an modernized server.

    Original or pointless!
    • Diablo Immortal is the most misunderstood and underrated game of all time!
    • Blizzard, please, give us some end-game focused Classic servers, where you start at max level!
    • Serious Completionist: 100% OW Achievements, 100% D3 Achievements, 90% Immortal Achievements, 99% ATT Classic, ~90% ATT Retail

  17. #1057
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by In Ogres We Trust View Post
    Anyways, Classic Remastered - and this is my own title for upcoming release - will have:

    Updated Graphics
    Updated UI
    Updated Mail
    Updated Character/NPC Models
    Bug Fixes

    And, above all else, minor QoL adjustments:

    Guild Bank
    Reagent Bank (Maybe)
    X-Mog (Seriously... the arguments against it are without merit.)
    Achievements
    Collection Systems (Mount, pets, etc... who wants to store this crap in their bags?)
    Improved Stack Size (I don't know... there's an argument to be made about inventory management.)
    Reduced Raid Sizes (25-Player)

    Honestly, as a "Vanilla" player - as if that means anything, you can't tell me that those additions are game breaking.
    You spew so much ridiculous shit that I'll assume you're either trying to stir up a war or a lawyer.

    Let's go:
    Updated Graphics - yeah, right. Good luck if you believe Blizzard will hire artists for a maintenance-only project to update all graphics in the old world to 2018 standard. If not, and you're only hoping for new models among 2004 textures and world - you'll notice something is off very quickly. That one is basically hoping Blizzard is a charity, as the profit to be gained from better graphics is most likely lower than the artists' combined wage.

    Updated UI - could happen as they are backtracking from Legion UI towards Vanilla's. Even though I vastly prefer Legion UI, it might look out of place and thus it'd be a toggle at most.

    Updated Mail - This one is not possible if you want Vanilla's pacing. Yes, pacing. Shitty UI that makes you spend 10x as much time doing something is slowing you down, and as such it is a part of pacing and should remain unchanged.

    Updated Models - see Updated Graphics.

    Bug Fixes - show me at least one Purist (that is not an obvious troll deliberately acting like a moron to push people towards the QoL side) that is arguing against stuff like this and Bnet integration, which will 100% be in the game and do not affect it at all bar a few unintended cheeses.

    Guild Bank - removes the need of using up character slots for a bank alt, while nice in the short run, might have absolutely horrendous consequences if the realms live longer than 2 years, so while they are a thing that could easily be ported to Vanilla, they shouldn't.

    Reagent Bank + Stack Sizes - you had a limited bank space and you had to manage it well or use a character slot for a bank alt, and you want to remove that and inventory management. Thanks, but that's pretty integral to how long yoj can spend farming and as such, affects economy.

    Transmog - there is something nice about finally getting somewhat matching armor after looking like a clown. That one aside, it'd push low level rare drop mog proces to high heavens, and this is an issue for lower level characters who want a slight edge versus content they tackle. Affects economy - thus can't be incorporated.

    Achievements - yeah, allowing grandfathering is absolutely great and everyone who was pissed over it will definitely like it making an appearance /s. This shit should've never hit live servers and instead been left for arcade games.

    Collection systems - apart from managing inventory space, might reduce rarity of companions if you get them accountwide. If so, also directly reduces the gold you need to spend on an alt to have their 60 and 100% mounts, as you will already have them. Also, let's go back to the times we didn't just play using lobbies and windows, but add some lobbies and windows. Riiiiiiight.

    Reduced Raid Sizes - wtf? Directly affects balancing, the amount of healers, dps, hybrids, buffs, debuffs and management for raid. Also requires rebalancing encounters and makes some classes a bit better, some obsolete. Worst case scenario is raids bringing almost fully pures to cheese fights that'd take longer with a bit more hybrids.


    Honestly, it's almost like you QoL guys can't see the bigger picture and realize vanilla was like a net, with everything connected to something and having deeper implications. Or you're trolls who want to ruin vanilla AS IF it's going to steal current players towards the 'old bad shit'. I'll definitely have subs active for both versions, and probably so will many others. No need to ruin a toy that doesn't suit your tastes because you believe everything should cater to you.

    Blizzard is a business and definitely goes for money it doesn't currently have. Why would they put mode effort to create a riskier version of an old product when they can go full lazymode and collect dollars from private server players all over the globe, plus the money of those who played but stopped due to QoL and those who will play both versions? Make sense.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyOcelot View Post
    I would guess this is one of the things the people they're hiring are going to do. They need to integrate the game into the new support model. They can't have GM's logging into servers to manually sort stuff out - all that is done by remote call-center, Blizzard fired their GM's long time ago. They also need to integrate the old account / billing system into battle.net.

    I've always thought the biggest challenge of making classic work is how corporate Blizzard has changed over the years. The in-game issues are easy to solve (I mean, buch of amateurs could run/develop Nost just fine, it's not that hard), but the enterprise integration will take some time.
    Sort what stuff out? How many times have you contacted a GM so that he'd help you with a quest?

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedzemir View Post
    Sort what stuff out? How many times have you contacted a GM so that he'd help you with a quest?
    even if it's not that common for individual players, at a larger scale it is an issue. I recall doing it a handful of times, when I deleted (or thought I deleted) some random quest item, which blocked some part of another quest chain, which prevented some other thingamajig.

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by rewhaha View Post
    even if it's not that common for individual players, at a larger scale it is an issue. I recall doing it a handful of times, when I deleted (or thought I deleted) some random quest item, which blocked some part of another quest chain, which prevented some other thingamajig.
    Well. I'd be ok with blizzard simply refusing to service these tickets. Abandon the quest and start over, that's your solution.

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