The Alliance is the evil faction.

[Hellrime]

Seeing as the reason the Horde and Alliance walked into the trap that was the Broken Shore, was because a dreadlord captured and replaced Shaw, and then leaked false information to both factions, I'd say Varians' death was way more due to Alliance incompetence than it was the Hordes' fault. But sure, let us go with the "Horde retreated, therefore they killed Varian" narrative, while completely ignoring the fact that everyone present would likely have died had the Horde not sounded the retreat.

It's alright to prefer one faction over the other, but you should maybe tone down your bias-fueled rage, because it's preventing you from seeing the whole picture.



Allies usually don't attack each other, but I guess we're ignoring Greymane attacking the forsaken fleet in Stormheim right?

From the viewpoint of the Alliance, Sylvanas abandoned Varian to die against a Horde of demons and Gul'dan. So not only did the Alliance have a way better Lok'tar Ogar, the Horde showed themselves to be cowards by and large. Genn attacking her ships, which I'm sure there is plenty of fanboi justifications, was most likely in retaliation for that. Lets be real here, Sylvanas' plan in Stormheim were just as nefarious as ever. There is no nobility or honor in the Horde while she is warchief.

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intelligence, right? Then they order you to put bombs on the property of the goblins to ruin their work as it is cataloged? terrorism

It's a Sabotage
Plant 10 dynamite bundles.

Explosives placed (10)
Description
The Horde has wasted no time in shamelessly extracting this mysterious ore from the great wound. Luckily for us, goblin engineering is not nearly as sophisticated as what we create in Gnomeregan! All it takes is a little bit of old fashioned dynamite to completely disable a goblin shredder. What unsophisticated machinery! Take these dynamite bundles and plant them on the inactive shredders around the mining camp. It'll take those greedy goblins weeks to get back up and running again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7U7kSgKeQ4

I cannot even begin to describe how flawed your logic is on this. It is like getting stabbed and then someone coming to dig in the wound, nothing good comes from that scenario. The Alliance is destroying the machines digging into the world of Azeroth to stop the Horde from making it worse...

[Captain Proton]

Except Azeroth isn't your home, and Most of the Horde is made up of Monsters, and Cannibals and Undead, all of whom have over and over delivered nightmares upon the innocent.

The Alliance is the only guiding light out of the darkness that would be the Horde.

Except the Horde has the oldest denizens of Azeroth, the trolls.

And who delivered the biggest nightmares upon the innocent? Oh that would be the Night Elves and Draenai. Thanks for bringing the Legion to Azeroth and Draenor.

[Teri]

Except Azeroth isn't your home, and Most of the Horde is made up of Monsters, and Cannibals and Undead, all of whom have over and over delivered nightmares upon the innocent.

The Alliance is the only guiding light out of the darkness that would be the Horde.

Goblins are native to Azeroth.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Look, I get it. You don't trust the Horde. But you need to stop pretending the Alliance's goals are somehow more noble than they actually are.

Actually, I don't trust goblins or Sylvanas. If Baine or even Saurfang led the Horde, we would have peace in our time. But what fun would that be?

[Rhlor]

No. A terrorist group that "wins" remains a terrorist group. Example: folks who were trying to kill / killing the elites in Russia in 19xx. They are still called terrorists, it is just acknowledged that the result (not only of terrorism, of course, but it contributed) was something bigger.

If you are looking at something that happens in the Alliance quests and proclaim "this is terrorism and get off me, this is subject to who's looking, it's 'complex' ", all you are doing is showing that you are probably looking for a reason to start a war yourself.

if a state kills civilians and destroys the property of another state that is reason to go to war! and can also call their actions terrorism !

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Horde Players hunt down and kill spies, which is perfectly legal under the laws of war as a spy is an enemy combatant.

Alliance Players hunt down and kill miners, that is unarmed civilian workers. That is a war crime.

this!!!!!!!

[Steampunkette]

if a state kills civilians and destroys the property of another state that is reason to go to war! and can also call their actions terrorism !

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this!!!!!!!

Not quite...

For it to be a War-Crime it has to happen during a time of war. If there's peace, like there is on Azeroth, now, it's not a War-Crime, it's Casus Belli. Cause for War.

[Rhlor]

Eh. Not so much. People are trying to express why the actions that have been taken thus far are a prelude to war, because the war is coming as a response to what's happening in Silithus (To the best of their currently limited knowledge).

Also, I'm not calling it terrorism or sabotage. I've said it was Theft, Murder, and Spying.

The ideas of whether or not it's terrorism or sabotage are based on a person's perspective within the narrative's political structure. Whether it's "Assassination" or "Slaughter" is similarly based on that perspective. But murder? Murder fits the action perfectly: Killing someone for gain, personal, political, or otherwise.

And the Alliance is, absolutely, spying and stealing.

the quest of the alliance talks about sabotage
It's a Sabotage
Plant 10 dynamite bundles.

Explosives placed (10)
Description
The Horde has wasted no time in shamelessly extracting this mysterious ore from the great wound. Luckily for us, goblin engineering is not nearly as sophisticated as what we create in Gnomeregan! All it takes is a little bit of old fashioned dynamite to completely disable a goblin shredder. What unsophisticated machinery! Take these dynamite bundles and plant them on the inactive shredders around the mining camp. It'll take those greedy goblins weeks to get back up and running again!
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50046/its-a-sabotage

[The Iron Fist]

Both sides have aggressive actions at different times.

The Alliance has, however, started the last two wars.

What game are you referring to, because it isn't World of Warcraft...

[Steampunkette]

the quest of the alliance talks about sabotage
It's a Sabotage
Plant 10 dynamite bundles.

Explosives placed (10)
Description
The Horde has wasted no time in shamelessly extracting this mysterious ore from the great wound. Luckily for us, goblin engineering is not nearly as sophisticated as what we create in Gnomeregan! All it takes is a little bit of old fashioned dynamite to completely disable a goblin shredder. What unsophisticated machinery! Take these dynamite bundles and plant them on the inactive shredders around the mining camp. It'll take those greedy goblins weeks to get back up and running again!
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=50046/its-a-sabotage

It's within the narrative, Rhlor, and thus colored by the narrative's choices. Specifically casting the Alliance as heroes. Had the Horde been given a mission to stop the bombings it would've been called "They're Terrorists!" or something similar. Because the intent is invariably to cast the player as the hero and the opposition as the villain.

From an external viewpoint, without considering the issue from either in-character political viewpoint, it's destruction of property.

Whether that property is privately or publicly held is currently unknown and only relevant within the narrative, at this time.

[Avar ize]

Varian ends the tentative peace during WotLK by escalating border skirmishes into all out war by declaring his intent to commit genocide and attacking Thrall in the Battle for Undercity. That war continues through Cata and ends in Mists with the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Varian was not crowned the High King until Mop, So him declaring war on the Horde in Undercity only means Stormwind, Not the Alliance as a whole.

Also killing 8 goblins is barerly anything to go to war over, We all know it will start with the burning of Teldrassil,
So once again United, Go fuck yourself.

[Steampunkette]

What game are you referring to, because it isn't World of Warcraft...

My correction and apology are elsewhere in the thread. So piss off, 'kay?

[Steampunkette]

Varian was not crowned the High King until Mop, So him declaring war on the Horde in Undercity only means Stormwind, Not the Alliance as a whole.

Arguable. But the Alliance has a pact of mutual defense and aggression, essentially, against the Horde. If Gilneas goes to war against the Horde without the "High King's" permission, the rest of the Alliance would send troops and supplies for essentially the same reason WW1 started.

[The Iron Fist]

Arguable. But the Alliance has a pact of mutual defense and aggression, essentially, against the Horde. If Gilneas goes to war against the Horde without the "High King's" permission, the rest of the Alliance would send troops and supplies for essentially the same reason WW1 started.

There are some moronic posts on MMO-Champion Steampunkette, but you're shooting up my list of deplorables. Almost everything I read for you is wrong, headcanon or intellectually depraved. You'll have to keep it up though. Still haven't cracked my Top 3.

[Steampunkette]

There are some moronic posts on MMO-Champion Steampunkette, but you're shooting up my list of deplorables. Almost everything I read for you is wrong, headcanon or intellectually depraved. You'll have to keep it up though. Still haven't cracked my Top 3.

How about we play a game of hide and go fuck yourself?

You go first! And I'll just never look for you.

[gcsmith]

the war is started with just a bunch of horde goblins peacefully minding their own business, with anduin and his chewbacca mentor tasking alliance players to kill goblins.

the horde is the more peaceful faction. we all already knew this tho.

Arguably the war started again in WOD when the Horde attacked Harrison Jones when he was minding his own business.

[Steampunkette]

Sounds very "America world police" like - but guess that is what the Alliance is.

Kind of... Except the Alliance is going to be digging up Azerite, too. Which kind of negates any angle of "Trying to stop the Horde from hurting the world" or whatever.

[Rhlor]

From the viewpoint of the Alliance, Sylvanas abandoned Varian to die against a Horde of demons and Gul'dan. So not only did the Alliance have a way better Lok'tar Ogar, the Horde showed themselves to be cowards by and large. Genn attacking her ships, which I'm sure there is plenty of fanboi justifications, was most likely in retaliation for that. Lets be real here, Sylvanas' plan in Stormheim were just as nefarious as ever. There is no nobility or honor in the Horde while she is warchief.

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I cannot even begin to describe how flawed your logic is on this. It is like getting stabbed and then someone coming to dig in the wound, nothing good comes from that scenario. The Alliance is destroying the machines digging into the world of Azeroth to stop the Horde from making it worse...

no, the alliance is doing this to delay the horde in their mining works, for later they also mine

[united]

Intervening to stop goblins from mining uranium for more doomsday weapons counts as saving the world, not as aggression. Saurfang and Baine would be first to agree.

how do you know they would agree? or are you just talking outta your behind so you can be more self righteous?

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Not bait if it's true.

lol thank you. people love saying “oh must be bait” whenever someone posts something they disagree with.

[huth]

A failed rebellion is made up of Seditionists who are tried and convicted as such.

A terrorist group that "Wins" is retroactively a "Political Movement that Sabotaged the former Regime"

A failed rebellion is made up of failed rebels. Who may or may not have been incited by seditionists. A seditionist is somebody who tries to make others rebel, regardless of whether he is a rebel himself.

The goal of a terrorist group is to cause fear. Not sabotage regimes. That may happen, but is incidental. I doubt Bin Laden had any real belief he could possibly cause long-term harm to the US. He sure got people afraid of him, though.

[Steampunkette]

A failed rebellion is made up of failed rebels. Who may or may not have been incited by seditionists. A seditionist is somebody who tries to make others rebel, regardless of whether he is a rebel himself.

The goal of a terrorist group is to cause fear. Not sabotage regimes. That may happen, but is incidental. I doubt Bin Laden had any real belief he could possibly cause long-term harm to the US. He sure got people afraid of him, though.

Bin Laden's goal in attacking the US was to incite violence and hatred against Muslims en-masse, and to invite a pointless and bloody affair into the region so that more innocent civilians would lose family in the crossfire and turn around and join Daesh so his dreams of ISIS (The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) could be formed by violent overthrow of the current governments in those states.

Terrorism was just his method of getting to that end goal. And -any- act of terrorism has, by definition, a political goal (whether religious or secular). It's a tool to enact change, not an excuse to just randomly "Inspire Terror" for no reason but to scare people.

Read more.