MDI 2 Discussion

[Hypasonic]

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being fresh due to not having any game prior to the final is (certain fighting sports have the same double elimination bracket as this MDI and those were around way before esports - ofc the strain of more games isnt as punishing as in actual sports but its still a strain.)

Yeah I can see how having a break can help but these guys play hours and hours on end every day, I doubt that is going to be a factor. I don't care much for the winner I can just see it being a bit frustrating playing a team you already beat to reach the final only for them to then be in equal footing as you in the final.

[nlc]

I'm not much into e-sports. I watched some CS:Go competition the other day and saw the team from winner bracket get 1 point for free in Bo5. And I can see the reasoning there. What are the other alternatives?

Having the map pick is quite a big advantage so I think it would've been fair to let Method pick the first dungeon. Starting with a free point would've been too much, IMO.

[klaps_05]

They said it somewhere in the MDI on an interview, that addons and peripherals (mouse, keyboard etc.) they could bring their own. But beats me if I can track it back. Or maybe it was in the Jdotb inteview I watched before MDI.

All addons and peripherals must be approved before usage, this was all done in the week prior to MDI when they were setting up.

[Eggroll]

I just found it curious that KA got their best map against MPC as first map. That's like really unfair.
Seems like someone at Blizzard didn't want a Method double final :-)

[Meiffert]

Oh please, I can't take you serious if this is the first event you ever watched with double elim.

I have seen a bunch of double elimination tournaments in different games.

You are right that the logical structure of the grand finals (in the double elim spirit) is 2 sets of BO3 and the team from lower bracket needs to win both sets individually.

That being said, there are other factors when deciding the format. Most importantly what's attractive for the viewers. 2 sets of finals series can be confusing to casual viewers and it's also potentially quite long.

Most events in many sports and games choose not to do it.

Some events give some other kind of advantage to the team advancing from winners bracket (such as a 1:0 lead in a BO5 or BO7, option to pick the first map, choose side or some other "coin toss win" for the first game depending on what game it is).
Many others choose to not give an explicit advantage and the fact that team in a losers bracket had to go through more series is considered a disadvantage enough (for example, in the MDI, Method NA only won 3 series while KJA won 5; one could argue that 5:1 is better than 3:1).

At the end of the day, I think it's fair to lobby for a format you consider better, but that's something to do before the event.
Once the format is known to all participants, everyone knows what to expect and it's by no means unfair.

In the case of WoW dungeons, 2 sets of series would be fine with me, winner bracket team having first pick of the map would be ok as well I guess.
Having a 1:0 advantage is way too much though. It's fine in other games (such as MOBAs), where the individual rounds are balanced and you have equal chance of winning each game. In WoW that's not the case because different dungeons favor different comps (and therefore teams) and counter-picking is a thing.
Alternatively, having a 1:0 lead BUT the lower bracket team gets to pick first map could be reasonable.


Also, if you want to point out potentially slightly unfair format decisions, how is it fair that Europe only gets 2 spots (same as China/Americas/Australia) given the results of time trials?

[pyro989898]

I have seen a bunch of double elimination tournaments in different games.

You are right that the logical structure of the grand finals (in the double elim spirit) is 2 sets of BO3 and the team from lower bracket needs to win both sets individually.

That being said, there are other factors when deciding the format. Most importantly what's attractive for the viewers. 2 sets of finals series can be confusing to casual viewers and it's also potentially quite long.

Most events in many sports and games choose not to do it.

Some events give some other kind of advantage to the team advancing from winners bracket (such as a 1:0 lead in a BO5 or BO7, option to pick the first map, choose side or some other "coin toss win" for the first game depending on what game it is).
Many others choose to not give an explicit advantage and the fact that team in a losers bracket had to go through more series is considered a disadvantage enough (for example, in the MDI, Method NA only won 3 series while KJA won 5; one could argue that 5:1 is better than 3:1).

At the end of the day, I think it's fair to lobby for a format you consider better, but that's something to do before the event.
Once the format is known to all participants, everyone knows what to expect and it's by no means unfair.

In the case of WoW dungeons, 2 sets of series would be fine with me, winner bracket team having first pick of the map would be ok as well I guess.
Having a 1:0 advantage is way too much though. It's fine in other games (such as MOBAs), where the individual rounds are balanced and you have equal chance of winning each game. In WoW that's not the case because different dungeons favor different comps (and therefore teams).


Also, if you want to point out potentially slightly unfair format decisions, how is it fair that Europe only gets 2 spots (same as China/Americas/Australia) given the results of time trials?

This happens in most of E-sports event i.e locking the number of team from each region. In any process followed by blizz that would decide the number of team qualified from each region their will also be backlash from some section of people . You can't create a perfect system for selecting number of teams from each region.

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I am surprised , wowhead has no mention of as who won MDI 2 till yet. To me it is strange considering how important is wowhead in WOW community.

[ID811717]

I just found it curious that KA got their best map against MPC as first map. That's like really unfair.
Seems like someone at Blizzard didn't want a Method double final :-)

The map pools and first map of every Bo3/Bo5 match was chosen and announced at least 4 weeks before finals. So any team could make those maps their "best" with some practice.

[Deleted]

So does this mean Method has to sponsor all teams to claim victory for a team?

All you need is 5 minutes of fame to gain the method title. The name method is fueled by money these days.

[Eggroll]

The map pools and first map of every Bo3/Bo5 match was chosen and announced at least 4 weeks before finals. So any team could make those maps their "best" with some practice.

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.

[ID811717]

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.

Even the best teams did not have time to practice all maps-affix combinations thoroughly. So many of them specifically aimed to do the following:
- Put a lot of practice in the first map from Bo3 match, aim to win it
- Expect to lose the counter-pick
- Choose their own counter-pick map, practice it a lot, and try to win it as the 3rd map in Bo3

The teams did not necessarily practice for more than 2 maps from each Bo3 bracket. So winning the first map in Bo3 was crucial for all of them.

[Eggroll]

Even the best teams did not have time to practice all maps-affix combinations thoroughly. So many of them specifically aimed to do the following:
- Put a lot of practice in the first map from Bo3 match, aim to win it
- Expect to lose the counter-pick
- Choose their own counter-pick map, practice it a lot, and try to win it as the 3rd map in Bo3

The teams did not necessarily practice for more than 2 maps from each Bo3 bracket. So winning the first map in Bo3 was crucial for all of them.

Well, however, I feel like there should be a cap to the maps a team has to play back to back at any given day of the tournament. If MPC had won the series against KA, they would have had (worst case) a total of 11 maps played on one day without any break worth mentioning.

Players are not robots, there's only so much you can do, people get exhausted. Not to mention it would not have been an even playing field with one team with already 6 maps played on their back against a completely refreshed team.