Demonology buffs had solved nothing

[garonne]

your statistics say nothing at all.
often times, there are rankings made by whoever it is and people only look at the placings of their specc.
i am pretty sure, that a lot of speccs differ within less than 1,5k dps. and that is pretty much nothing.
also: your statistics do not say anything about the itemlevel. you can only compare same itemlevels and even THEN the best possible logs can only be made if the players dont have to play mechanics. mechanics cost dps in most cases. and in uldir there are lots of random mechanics

instead of assuming with your pretentious behavior, it would be better to inquire. I know what stats can and can't do and how it can be misleading if an ignoramus is the one who reads it. however, if an intelligent person see's stats they can look at the aggregate information and form an opinion or see certain facts. if you can't see what my stats are saying then you're not as smart as you think kiddo.

[Deleted]

there are still way too many unknown variables, such as azerite traits that are kind of connected to itemlevel,
while being independent at the same time.
do you have your important damage-trinket-like proccs at a good phase of the fights?!

also strategy needs to be way more refined in mythic. which also means more possibilitys to cleave in most uldir bossfights.
in this addon, a large portion of the characters damage is determined to proc chances and that makes your "i know how to read statistics" quite obsolete.

i had identical trys of several bossfights myself, where the overall dps differed between up to ~3,5k dps, just because i was a bit lucky with those random trinket/azerite/weaponenchantment procs.

and with that many random things in addition to those random boss mechanics, your statistics still dosent say anything about where the demonology warlock stands in terms of damage.

[Gaidax]

You can indeed say statistics is skewed, but to a point.

The actual good argument as opposed to above would be that creme de la creme players are gravitating towards Affliction and then rest to Destruction, where as Demonology is basically a hipster spec at the moment played by random people, so that may make Demo appear worse than it is... to a point.

But you do have thousands of parses there, it's not really your 2 pulls there where things vary, it is already some representation there that can be used to make conclusions.


In my opinion - demonology standing in statistics is not surprising, because where Affliction has immense amount of versatility and tricks, Destruction got brute force and some nice additions like cleave and burst AoE, Demo sort of has nothing.

Not only Demo tuning is super conservative now (unlike Destruction that got tuned to the edge of being overbuffed), but it also has no ticks or useful niche for raiding - it's AoE does not play out, it can't switch targets any better than other specs and it can't multidot and/or cleave effectively like other 2 specs.

I think Demo is missing something akin to Havoc or Multidotting that would allow damage to ramp up in usual raid encounters, that OR simply undertuned. It is possible to simply buff it and make it do mongo DPS baseline instead without multidot/cleave, that could work too.

[Deleted]

i never said my few bossfights make up for a reasonable number, but it basically shows how random those parses can be.
and you dont want to use a class-specc that is THAT much of a guess.

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i really think what we really suffer from as demonology is that blizzard fked up the classdesign for destro and affliction after legion.
there is a speific talent that shows how uncreative the devs are.

Dark Soul: Misery.
If you are very uncreative and dont know where to go with a spec that dosent perform, you be like: hey lets give it a 2 minute bloodlust cooldown.

ironically, this talent is so ridiculously overpowered, that demonology will never catch up to that.
problem is: the other speccs dont work without it. what they need was talented on the legion artifact.

[Deleted]

I dont have any problems keeping up as a demolock. I mainly play m+ and I out-dps any affliction warlock I come across. Yesterday I did a 10 underrot (tyrannical, explosive, bolstering, infested affixes) and 2 chest it. Im ilvl 375 equipped.

My overall dps on the run was 14k. Demo is insane for constant cleave aoe with imp exlposion. When chain-pulling in m+ and quickly go into boss fights after trash, Im having 2-3 instant casts ready before the fight even starts. Save them up for the time when you need to move. To me the spec is really mobile. Yes, you have some ramp-up time at the start of the dungeon or when combat has left for awhile (after a wipe perhaps).

Not to mention the insane stable ST dps. On the first boss I did 18.2k dps at the end of the fight. All other bosses I was around 12-15k dps. Sure, the first boss in Underot has a little cleave for a few seconds, but 3rd and last boss dont have any cleave and require alot of movement, and still Im doing 12-15k dps. Ill see if I still have my details from the run to proove what im saying.

Point is: demolock is a pretty solid spot. Get to know the procs and keep them for when you need to move so you basicly have no downtime. Constantly pumping out instant demonbolts critting for 30k is really good.

Edit: Posted the details from that run. Showing you the Overall dps, the 1st boss and 3rd boss




This is the link to my wlock so you can check out the gear and recent runs: https://raider.io/characters/eu/kazzak/Conzise

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[Orwell7]

Hey! Thanks for the report!
THIS is the discussion I am missing from the forums. Not asking for nerfs, or telling everyone that "u suck I king".
You provide good points, have experience and you are willing to share.

See everyone? These are the kind of posts a forum should be about.

On topic, this post alone makes me wanna try demo.

[Deleted]

Hey! Thanks for the report!
THIS is the discussion I am missing from the forums. Not asking for nerfs, or telling everyone that "u suck I king".
You provide good points, have experience and you are willing to share.

See everyone? These are the kind of posts a forum should be about.

On topic, this post alone makes me wanna try demo.

You should ! Ive shared my details in my previous post.

[garonne]

snip

your statement of "your statistics prove nothing at all" is wrong.

you would have had a better argument if you said my conclusion from the stats is incorrect. you're also talking about variables that come into play that can skew data, however large volumes of such data gives a more accurate representation. you mention your parses as a basis for the argument which sounds like you dont know how to read stats. yes you're right that your two parses show that the dps has variances but thats why we use stats, to give us an average.

- - - Updated - - -

i never said my few bossfights make up for a reasonable number, but it basically shows how random those parses can be.
and you dont want to use a class-specc that is THAT much of a guess.

--------
i really think what we really suffer from as demonology is that blizzard fked up the classdesign for destro and affliction after legion.
there is a speific talent that shows how uncreative the devs are.

Dark Soul: Misery.
If you are very uncreative and dont know where to go with a spec that dosent perform, you be like: hey lets give it a 2 minute bloodlust cooldown.

ironically, this talent is so ridiculously overpowered, that demonology will never catch up to that.
problem is: the other speccs dont work without it. what they need was talented on the legion artifact.

uncreative doesn't = bad. the sole reason WQ trinkets and some dungeons trinkets are better than the raid trinkets are because they're uncreative: stat stick with a proc stat.

also, sims wise, demo and affliction and destro are all close in a patchwerk setting. the reason demo isn't as good in Uldir is because aff and destro have more tools to to solve more situations than demo does without losing out on max potential dps.

[Th3Scourge]

I dont have any problems keeping up as a demolock. I mainly play m+ and I out-dps any affliction warlock I come across. Yesterday I did a 10 underrot (tyrannical, explosive, bolstering, infested affixes) and 2 chest it. Im ilvl 375 equipped.

My overall dps on the run was 14k. Demo is insane for constant cleave aoe with imp exlposion. When chain-pulling in m+ and quickly go into boss fights after trash, Im having 2-3 instant casts ready before the fight even starts. Save them up for the time when you need to move. To me the spec is really mobile. Yes, you have some ramp-up time at the start of the dungeon or when combat has left for awhile (after a wipe perhaps).

Not to mention the insane stable ST dps. On the first boss I did 18.2k dps at the end of the fight. All other bosses I was around 12-15k dps. Sure, the first boss in Underot has a little cleave for a few seconds, but 3rd and last boss dont have any cleave and require alot of movement, and still Im doing 12-15k dps. Ill see if I still have my details from the run to proove what im saying.

Point is: demolock is a pretty solid spot. Get to know the procs and keep them for when you need to move so you basicly have no downtime. Constantly pumping out instant demonbolts critting for 30k is really good.

Edit: Posted the details from that run. Showing you the Overall dps, the 1st boss and 3rd boss




This is the link to my wlock so you can check out the gear and recent runs: https://raider.io/characters/eu/kazzak/Conzise

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Fully agree with this. Demo is a M+ beast, and is also incredibly fun to play. Sustained cleave damage is crucial for fast M+ runs and demo can pump out some serious numbers. Ramp isn't even that bad because you don't slow down in M+

[Deleted]

Fully agree with this. Demo is a M+ beast, and is also incredibly fun to play.

Demonology is realy fun to play, one of the best specs for me for fun ^(wich I know is subjective). Unfortunately AOE with implosion feels counter intuitive, and gameplay outside of having specced soul strike and Power siphon feels lackluster in therms of the diversity number of buttons to press (wich i know that is also subjective).

Also, some talents are downright odd and misplaced like Doom. Also, other talents are realy badly tuned numbers-wise like bilescourge bomber or Nether Portal.


It realy feels that it would be quite easy to make demonology a much better spec allround, because it's "nearly there", it's just strange that blizzard can't put a few hours fixing what is should be quite fast and easy to fix...

[Reivur]

Demonology is realy fun to play, one of the best specs for me for fun ^(wich I know is subjective). Unfortunately AOE with implosion feels counter intuitive, and gameplay outside of having specced soul strike and Power siphon feels lackluster in therms of the diversity number of buttons to press (wich i know that is also subjective).

Also, some talents are downright odd and misplaced like Doom. Also, other talents are realy badly tuned numbers-wise like bilescourge bomber or Nether Portal.


It realy feels that it would be quite easy to make demonology a much better spec allround, because it's "nearly there", it's just strange that blizzard can't put a few hours fixing what is should be quite fast and easy to fix...

Implosion felt counter-intuitive to me too, at first. Then I played around with Legion's Fire Mage and goofed around with it more during the prepatch. Once I started treating Implosion like one does stacks for Pyroblasts it clicks a lot better. The imps spawning from Hand of Gul'dan taking a second and a half to activate is for your Implosion's benefit so your freshest Implosion doesn't consume them. Treating it as if it were an animation cancel after your latest Hand after two of them makes it feel a lot better.

Demonology also feels the affects of Haste drastically. Even before they nerfed Affliction burst with Darkglare I was outdamaging them during bloodlust because I was fortunate enough to have haste on every slot as well. Without bloodlust I wasn't comparable, of course. But it at least gives you a proof of concept of how valuable haste ends up being for them. Unfortunately I only did Demonology for a couple weeks in Uldir then I swapped to Holy Priest because we had a healer shortage, but overall I was enjoying Demonology except for Mother who ultimately doesn't matter long term.

I don't know how that stands now, but these observations were before the hotfixes/buffs when I was hovering around 350. I imagine things have only improved since Darkglare got nerfed and Demonology improved; with azerite traits (maybe) worth taking now? I wouldn't know. But the haste thirst is real.

[Werst]

What is the consensus from m10+ demo who have run extensively for talents? I’d think power siphon and soul strike are needed for mobility. I know raiding is a fixed spec pretty much but for the m+ do we use any flexibility?

Dreadlash vs Demonic Strength?
Inner Demons vs Soul conduit?

[ChronoSul]

What is the consensus from m10+ demo who have run extensively for talents? I’d think power siphon and soul strike are needed for mobility. I know raiding is a fixed spec pretty much but for the m+ do we use any flexibility?

Dreadlash vs Demonic Strength?
Inner Demons vs Soul conduit?

Soul conduit really doesnt get used at all. And for Dreadlash vs Demonic Strength it depends on ur group comp and azerite traits. For example if the group doesnt have many interrupts and u are forced to use felhunter instead of felguard dreadlash can be better for the extra utility but if that isnt the case Demonic Strength is better. OR if you have a shadow bite azerite trait dreadlash can also be better then Demonic Strength or close to demonic strength. Also Inner demons allows u to have an on demand use of power siphon which can help.

[SpikeySquad]

While I haven't run Demo extensively I don't think Power Siphon is needed for mobility personally.

Soul Strike is awesome. It is a fair DPS loss on ST however for target switching you gain a lot and of course Vilefiend is a ST ability only.

Otherwise same as above poster and Demonic Strength* and ID or GF depending on if you favour burst (though 2 mins is a rather long time in m+ standards in my opinion) or sustained.

[Liarparadox]

Otherwise same as above poster and DStrike and ID or GF depending on if you favour burst (though 2 mins is a rather long time in m+ standards in my opinion) or sustained.

My brain isn't working and i don't play Demo. What is Dstrike?

[SpikeySquad]

My brain isn't working and i don't play Demo. What is Dstrike?

My bad. I actually meant Demonic Strength (the same 3 letters of the second word doesn't help). I really should drink more coffee before answering first thing and of course not be lazy and use abbreviations.

A somewhat short cooldown is nice for some on demand burst.