“Activision happend”

[Osmeric]

revisiting old debate, but maybe new to others on this thread - the counterpoint to this is that the game went to 11 million subs BEFORE the wrath model made great steps to make sure average players could complete the content. the western sub peak was just months after wotlk released. In other words, the game grew to nearly its western sub maximum with a design that made a great deal of content unsee-able by average players.

I remain skeptical that making all the content complete-able (and pretty fast) by avg. players was the best model for 3.0.2. blizzard put systems in place that make limited sense if they intended to make sure averageman could finish everything anyway.

And the counter-counterargument is that it grew then not because it was difficult, but in spite of it. The growth curve was consistent with a model where vast tracts of MMO virgins were attracted to WoW as their first MMO, but were not retained by it.

At best, one might argue that the perceived difficulty might have attracted people, who then realized they weren't as good as they imagined they were (truly, a "you think you do but you don't" situation). In that case, keeping the game hard would not have retained them either. The players would also have been immunized against the false attraction of difficult content, so other MMOs that tried that would have failed to get traction (hello WildStar, which had weak initial sales in addition to very poor retention.)

In this model, the MMO genre is declining because it is inherently self-destructive. It grew fine as long as it had new customers to pull in that weren't experienced with its central contradiction, but once those were used up it had eaten itself alive.

[Hiromant]

Its funny how people seem to think that Blizzard 14 years ago still would exist if they didnt go the way they did. would probably be 6+ years alteast betwen expansions, and that would be without content patches.

I have to agree. The gaming industry has changed, it's not okay anymore to wait for four years from announcement to release like Diablo 3.

[Deficineiron]

And the counter-counterargument is that it grew then not because it was difficult, but in spite of it. The growth curve was consistent with a model where vast tracts of MMO virgins were attracted to WoW as their first MMO, but were not retained by it.

At best, one might argue that the perceived difficulty might have attracted people, who then realized they weren't as good as they imagined they were. In that case, keeping the game hard would not have retained them either. The players would also have been immunized against the false attraction of difficult content, so other MMOs that tried that would have failed to get traction (hello WildStar, which had weak initial sales in addition to very poor retention.)

In this model, the MMO genre is declining because it is inherently self-destructive. It grew fine as long as it had new customers to pull in that weren't experienced with its central contradiction, but once those were used up it had eaten itself alive.

the counter-counter-argument has always seemed uphill to me: essentially, the game grew to unprecedented levels in spite of being somewhat inaccessible, having content the vast majority of players would never finish, even taking so long many customers never got to max by tbc end (though 2.3 sped this up).

then the content was made widely accessible, growth came to an abrupt and complete halt and began a slow slide for the next 2 years (western).

I do think the western mmo market was saturating by late tbc (tbc growth curve slowed in 2008), but I would have trouble with all the 'in spite of's' i need to throw in there to make your argument.

I am still waiting for our tell-all book. No one is talking. there are likely fairly definitive answers to this topic but will we ever see them?

[tankbug]

Activision hates money, so they fired all the good people in Blizzard, and told the rest to make bad games, like Overwatch and Hearthstone.

[Daedius]

let me know when you changed your avatar and your signature so i can then remove you from my ignore list. That animated pattern is fucking annoying to me. Thanks mate.

Never !

[Kelathos]

OT: how can you be a 7-year-member with join date in 2009

Because it is awarded in increments, and 10 years have not passed yet.