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  1. #41
    Deleted
    Did the fight in 8.1 and if anything it seemed easier than before, albeit we did it with 2 rogues before.

    Think zerging down all adds almost instantly helps instead of having the small guys up for the rogues.

  2. #42
    did it with 2 rogues and 2 tanks. everyone on ST, cleave the adds, switch on the big ones when they have the debuff.

    dont switch on 2nd big add and focus burn the boss (kill the 2nd big one after boss transition to last phase).

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    "once again": this game is made of encounters. It is a mix of class abilities and the boss' mechanics. You can't have the one without the other.
    So essentially they changed the fights (buffed in this case) BY nerfing classes.
    Fight was actually nerfed, so you're still wrong.

  4. #44
    We did it yesterday as well with no rogues. We just zerged everything down pretty much, was relatively easy. We 2 tanked it as opposed to 3, we 4 healed and had no rogues. That’s basically all we changed.

  5. #45

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Looks like compared to 8.0 rogues lost about 30% damage.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    Appreciate the answer Gorsameth. Wondered why people were doing 15-20k etc while rogues were doing 30K+.
    And it wasn't even a normal finisher, it was a 40% stronger finisher due to the passive (each mob hit increases eviscerate by 10% stacking). So yeah, 355 ilvl sub rogue would do more damage than a 375 main of a different class, with constant spamming empowered finishers. But that passive got deleted and no more fat eviscerates. I think our rogues didn't even bother going sub anymore.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Looks like compared to 8.0 rogues lost about 30% damage.
    True. The point is that they still carry on Zul.

  9. #49
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    True. The point is that they still carry on Zul.
    No one was disputing that, it's a completely pointless statement to make.

    People are worried that the damage loss from nerfed rogues will make the fight notably harder. The fact rogues are still ahead is completely inconsequential unless your worry was, as a rogue, that you might get out dpsed on the fight. I'd presume most people aren't that retarded.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    True. The point is that they still carry on Zul.
    More importantly, the damage lost was on the boss not the worthless add damage. So it's more significant than 30% would seem.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=35

    Someone's bad 355 alt is doubling the next highest non-rogue 381 main. The highest rogue outright more than triples the next DPS.

    If rogues were worth 3 dps before and you had 3 rogues and they lost 40% damage on the boss, you lost ~3.6 dps players on the boss with the patch. The 5% health nerf gained you 0.65 dps players, assuming 13 dps in the raid.


    Might be worth pointing out on warcraftlogs there were 1600 kills of Zul last week and 601 this week and kill times have gone up 20% with a 5% health nerf to the boss.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2018-12-14 at 09:12 AM.

  11. #51
    I imagine a lot of guilds that re-cleared while progressing Mythrax/Ghuun extended this week instead to be on the safe side.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  12. #52
    We 2 shot the fight with 2 Rogues (usually had 4 before 8.1) and our kill was at 3:30, average before then was about 3:15 or so. It's not now suddenly a difficult fight, you can still easily just burn it down.
    Biggest problem is everyone thinking they can just pad on adds now that they're not completely precious to all the Rogues, (although they kind of are) we played it exactly like before; there was barely any noticeable change in timings/difficulty.

  13. #53
    Recleared the fight without rogues and still managed to transition into p2 before the 4th Pool of Darkness. The fight is about the same difficulty as before

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    No one was disputing that, it's a completely pointless statement to make.

    People are worried that the damage loss from nerfed rogues will make the fight notably harder. The fact rogues are still ahead is completely inconsequential unless your worry was, as a rogue, that you might get out dpsed on the fight. I'd presume most people aren't that retarded.
    Well, we did it without sub rogues and had no issues with the boss damage. At this point everyone's got so good gear that it's not really an issue anymore.

  15. #55
    It's not unkillable, the change mainly hurts guilds that aren't as good that were right on the edge of being able to kill it before.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2018-12-14 at 06:22 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    No one was disputing that, it's a completely pointless statement to make.

    People are worried that the damage loss from nerfed rogues will make the fight notably harder. The fact rogues are still ahead is completely inconsequential unless your worry was, as a rogue, that you might get out dpsed on the fight. I'd presume most people aren't that retarded.
    The boss hp was nerfed, rogues still pump damage, you have 10 stacks array and raids have gear out of their arse. The fight is still zergable.
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I'm glad you brought up IQ, the last standardised IQ test I took I scored a 127, the threshold for 'Genius' is 140, and the threshold for 'Gifted Genius' is 165+, based on the fact the global average IQ is 84, and the fact you're likely Americanwhere the national IQ is BELOW the global average and falling consistently which has led to calls for global intervention in your abysmal education system, I feel you have VERY LITTLE room to talk about IQ levels, but thanks for trying.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    The boss hp was nerfed, rogues still pump damage, you have 10 stacks array and raids have gear out of their arse. The fight is still zergable.
    Sure, but warcraftlogs clearly shows kill times are up significantly despite the health nerf. That's obviously going to affect the guilds with weaker dps that are progressing it now or recently killed it.

    It is strange design to let guilds with poor dps kill it, then take it away from them randomly towards the end of the tier.

    No one wants to reprogress on content they've already killed.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    Sure, but warcraftlogs clearly shows kill times are up significantly despite the health nerf. That's obviously going to affect the guilds with weaker dps that are progressing it now or recently killed it.

    It is strange design to let guilds with poor dps kill it, then take it away from them randomly towards the end of the tier.

    No one wants to reprogress on content they've already killed.
    On the rankings page you linked I see most kills between 3:10 and 3:30 which is perfectly in line with what we hit on progression or even a bit faster. If the fight is longer as you claim but guilds are still doing the 1 Bloodhexer wave strategy then that suggests it's just the last phase that's taking longer which doesnt affect the strategy at all. The only check for the strategy is if you push before the second wave.

    Something we can agree on though is fights being changed like this mid-tier is silly and a result of new raid tiers no longer being connected to major patches and instead coming later. If the next raid opened with the release of 8.1 as it was back in the day nobody would be upset about this as Uldir would have been moved on from :/
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    I'm glad you brought up IQ, the last standardised IQ test I took I scored a 127, the threshold for 'Genius' is 140, and the threshold for 'Gifted Genius' is 165+, based on the fact the global average IQ is 84, and the fact you're likely Americanwhere the national IQ is BELOW the global average and falling consistently which has led to calls for global intervention in your abysmal education system, I feel you have VERY LITTLE room to talk about IQ levels, but thanks for trying.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    On the rankings page you linked I see most kills between 3:10 and 3:30 which is perfectly in line with what we hit on progression or even a bit faster. If the fight is longer as you claim but guilds are still doing the 1 Bloodhexer wave strategy then that suggests it's just the last phase that's taking longer which doesnt affect the strategy at all. The only check for the strategy is if you push before the second wave.

    Something we can agree on though is fights being changed like this mid-tier is silly and a result of new raid tiers no longer being connected to major patches and instead coming later. If the next raid opened with the release of 8.1 as it was back in the day nobody would be upset about this as Uldir would have been moved on from :/
    Or they were easily beating the timer for Hexxer wave 2, and now are very close to it. Since there's so much gear and stacks. There's far less kills this week than last week (still only 609) so more likely the guilds that can't beat the timer are just not killing the fight.

    8.0
    Rank 1: 2:26
    Rank 50: 3:03
    Rank 100: 3:06
    Rank 300: 3:12
    Rank 600: 3:17

    8.1
    Rank 1: 2:42
    Rank 50: 3:19
    Rank 100: 3:24
    Rank 300: 3:34
    Rank 600: 4:29

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