I like Anduin !

[Shiza]

Continuing to shelter your allies despite them directly subverting your authority is toxic now? You also ignored my point that I was really trying to hammer in: It is not just Anduin concluding that she's "consumed by vengeance." Blizzard makes a point of showing that other night elves close to her feel the same way. She's always been impulsive, and now she's impulsive, empowered by a goddess, and tied to an ancient, dark blood ritual. We'll have to see where that goes, but you can hardly blame the people close to her going "I'm a little worried about that."

So you think supporting a genocidal war criminal whose personality is solely defined by muh honor machismo over your long-term allies who just suffered a genocide is moral?

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Like most wow characters these days and it's problem is he doesn't realistically react to situations happening but rather reacts in ways that push the plot.

The horde should of been disbanded entirely. It makes MoPs story pointless if every time we have a war things go back to normal the next day.

Blizzard just really,really wants night elves as a villian as well to the point of going above and beyond to paint them as one. They even had to retcon a few characters from the book they published pre mop because even for blizzard they had characters acting to strangely.

I mean, I guess the writers at Blizzard are the kinds of people who thought that the Inglorious Basterds and Shoshanna Dreyfus where the real villains of the movie.

[Powerogue]

So you think supporting a genocidal war criminal whose personality is solely defined by muh honor machismo over your long-term allies who just suffered a genocide is moral?

It took me a while to realize you meant Saurfang. So your hatred of him almost matches his self-hatred over those mistakes.

So yes, supporting a heavily remorseful war criminal who wants the war to end as much as he does over a long term ally so consumed by vengeance she'd see the Alliance burn as long as the Horde goes down with them was probably a good call, if a risky and unpopular decision to make.

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Anduin wimp and coward
Legion: afk throne room
BFA: crying like bitch
Shadowlands: afk throne room

nice king LOL

I mean I'd summarize it more as.

MOP: overconfident and overoptimistic child that got his ass kicked. To quote Wrathion, "you would do well to learn some of your father's hardiness."
Legion: Child adapting to new role as king with support of fellow Alliance leaders, slowly gathering the support of the people
BFA: Front and center at Lordaeron, grown immensely through hardship, making difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions with newfound confidence and conviction, while still pursuing the peace he's always idealized.

[Shiza]

It took me a while to realize you meant Saurfang. So your hatred of him almost matches his self-hatred over those mistakes.

So yes, supporting a heavily remorseful war criminal who wants the war to end as much as he does over a long term ally so consumed by vengeance she'd see the Alliance burn as long as the Horde goes down with them was probably a good call, if a risky and unpopular decision to make.

Only that Tyrande has a point, because you know, Mist of Pandaria happened. The Horde commited countless atrocities against the Night Elves but she was willing to engage in peace and even let them keep Azshara with her approval so that they have the ressources Orgrimmar needs. She trusted in Varians decission who on the other hand made the promise that if the Horde ever does something like this again, there will be no mercy anymore. What happened just a few years later? The Horde accepted an even more bloodthirsty, genocidal psychopath as their leader and in the end, even more members of the Horde were following her in the end than was the case with Garrosh. In his case, his only followers where radicalized orcish supremacists and a few Goblin mercenaries and his forces where small enough that the Sentinel Army was enough to break the gates to Orgrimmar, with Sylvanas, so many members of the Horde still followed her after everything, that the forces of Horde Rebels and Alliance together probably couldn't have stormed the city.

And even after that, Tyrande doesn't demands a genocide on all of the Horde, she wants Sylvanas head and disagrees with signing a peace treaty in which the Horde doesn't make any concessions and argues that it will be only a matter of time, until the Horde will once again turn on the Alliance, which was proven true, considering that out of 6 Warchiefs so far, 4 where murderous genocidal psychopaths and that the Horde has into warlike fascists over and over again.

And no decent person should give a shit about Saurfangs remorse. He once had the chance to show remorse and become a better man, after he participated in the Draenei Genocide and two unprovoked wars against the people of the eastern Kingdoms. He didn't change, he became one of the leading architects of the Night Elf genocide, nearly murdered one of the biggest heroes and probably most genuinly good person on Azeroth through backstab and only fucked off, because Sylvanas style of warfare wasn't pandering to his muh honor machismo enough. If Saurfang ever felt real remorse, he would have given himself over to the Draenei, so that they can judge over him. What Saurfang felt is self-pity, because the Horde didn't pander to his machismo ideas of honor and glory, not remose. There is a difference between self-pity and remorse. What Saurfang didn't can't be characterized as remorse, considering that he lived his entire life justice for his action and even orchestrated his death to be a Lok'tar Ogar muh Honor hero show to feed his machismo.

The fact that Anduin rather trusts some male macho war criminal of multiple genocides than his long-term female ally who argues with perfectly sensible and true arguments makes him look like a closeted misogynist. One, who doesn't believe in justice for the victims of genocide. Letting a genocidal regime get off free and engaging in a white peace with them should be the very definition of a garbage human being.

I mean, I don't even can get behind the people who follow Blizzards point of view and interpretation of what they are writing there, considering that it is even far more messed up than J.K. Rowling depicting her Allegory of Adolf Hitler as motivated by preventing the Holocaust and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And what kind of human being would wrote the leader of a race that just suffered a genocide of most of their civilian population as batshit crazy and consumed by vengeance for demanding Justice for her people, especially since she didn't even target civilian populations. All of her actions where attacking military targets who where occupying her Homeland and afterwards all she does is demanding Sylvanas death and refusing to sign a truce with a faction that will very likely break the treaty. So yeah, you are indirectly stating, that resistance movements who fight the military occupation of their homeland and demand the execution of dictators who ordered genocides as consumed by vengeance.

[Seylene]

Anduin is a fine character on his own I even like him in the role as king of Stormwind. However Anduin as the "High King" of the Alliance really speaks that they want the milquetoast lawful good overdrive that so many dislike and leads to the Alliance forever sitting in the role of passive forgiveness machines, is the issue I have. To be fair I have the same issues with Malfurion. People who put the "Greater Good" over their own people are very rarely interesting.

[Shiza]

Anduin is a fine character on his own I even like him in the role as king of Stormwind. However Anduin as the "High King" of the Alliance really speaks that they want the milquetoast lawful good overdrive that so many dislike and leads to the Alliance forever sitting in the role of passive forgiveness machines, is the issue I have. To be fair I have the same issues with Malfurion. People who put the "Greater Good" over their own people are very rarely interesting.

Anduin is not Lawful Good. He rather allies with war criminals than his own military allies and he engages in a white peace with a faction that just commited a genocide and refuses to persecute war criminals.

[Nerovar]

Anduin is not Lawful Good. He rather allies with war criminals than his own military allies and he engages in a white peace with a faction that just commited a genocide and refuses to persecute war criminals.

Yeah, Anduin is more of neutral or chaotic good. I think he's an interesting character on paper but most of his dialogue was simply shit/cringe.

[Weeps]

The only thing I like about the Wrynn storyline is that Anduin is basically the polar opposite of Varian Wrynn.

Varian = savage warrior, among the greatest to live, has the respect of many horde

Anduin = "this child..." eyerolls all around. Such a palad-- sorry, "priest"

[Shiza]

Yeah, Anduin is more of neutral or chaotic good. I think he's an interesting character on paper but most of his dialogue was simply shit/cringe.

Anduin would be interesting in an universe which wasn't build to pander to him, depict him as right by default and a stunning example of what a non-toxic male role model would look like, considering that he isn't one. He is cringe because the writers have a screwed perception of morality, military alliances and how to interact with serious topics like war, militarism and genocide and treat all of decissions as the golden standart of morality with all counterarguments being treated as mentally unstable or consumed by vengeance, when both Tyrande and Genn have very reasonable, sensible and non-radical points for any neutral observer who knows the story of the last couple of expansions. Even Genn didn't necessarily do anything wrong during Legion, considering that Sylvanas tried an ethnic cleansing on Gilneas, forced the entire population of Gilneas into a forced state of exile. Forced Displacement and ethnic cleansing are both crimes against humanity and Sylvanas was still preventing the Gilneans to return to their homeland.

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The only thing I like about the Wrynn storyline is that Anduin is basically the polar opposite of Varian Wrynn.

Varian = savage warrior, among the greatest to live, has the respect of many horde

Anduin = "this child..." eyerolls all around. Such a palad-- sorry, "priest"

I would love a story where Varian expresses dissapointment with Anduin and directly compares him with Arthas, stating that for all the evil he commited, Arthas became the Monster he was because he was willing to sacrifice his own soul for his people, while Anduin has sacrificed his people for his conscience.

[Nerovar]

Anduin would be interesting in an universe which wasn't build to pander to him, depict him as right by default and a stunning example of what a non-toxic male role model would look like, considering that he isn't one. He is cringe because the writers have a screwed perception of morality, military alliances and how to interact with serious topics like war, militarism and genocide and treat all of decissions as the golden standart of morality with all counterarguments being treated as mentally unstable or consumed by vengeance, when both Tyrande and Genn have very reasonable, sensible and non-radical points for any neutral observer who knows the story of the last couple of expansions. Even Genn didn't necessarily do anything wrong during Legion, considering that Sylvanas tried an ethnic cleansing on Gilneas, forced the entire population of Gilneas into a forced state of exile. Forced Displacement and ethnic cleansing are both crimes against humanity and Sylvanas was still preventing the Gilneans to return to their homeland.

I basically agree with what you're saying but it's more of an issue with the rest of the more recent lore than an issue that is specifically tied to Manduin.

[Seylene]

Anduin is not Lawful Good. He rather allies with war criminals than his own military allies and he engages in a white peace with a faction that just commited a genocide and refuses to persecute war criminals.

Well yes that is what I was largely getting at under "passive forgiveness machines." but did not want to go that hard with someone being an admitted fan in the discussion. XD