Returning Ability: Devouring Plague ?

[Venara]

I want to point out that this isn't at all what they said. They said VF feels unrewarding when you can't maintain insanity generation. That does not mean "THE tool for non-boss M+". It means it's at the very least an alternative spender in those situations. For it to be an alternative spender though, it needs to be comparable in some situations, and unquestionably stronger in some - clearly those situations aren't mean to be AoE situations, or longer fights.

There's a contradiction here though, isn't there?

You're saying it's not meant to be AoE situations but Blizzard says the exact opposite. As I quoted, they said "such as in Mythic Keystone dungeons on non-boss encounters" which is a fancy way to say "trash". This trash is pretty much always going to be AoE. And they said they are returning DP for "these combat situations".

Unless you can show another way to read that, I am reading that as that they are intending DP to be used for Mythic+ trash pulls, which are by their very nature, always at least 2-3 mobs, often more. That is an AoE situation and, with current tuning, VF/VE will always be superior there.

Granted they didn't say "THE TOOL" but how else do you read that particular line? If it said just leveling and outdoor content I would fully agree with you, but they specifically included Mythic+ trash in that statement.

[Segus1992]

There's a contradiction here though, isn't there?

You're saying it's not meant to be AoE situations but Blizzard says the exact opposite. As I quoted, they said "such as in Mythic Keystone dungeons on non-boss encounters" which is a fancy way to say "trash". This trash is pretty much always going to be AoE. And they said they are returning DP for "these combat situations".

Unless you can show another way to read that, I am reading that as that they are intending DP to be used for Mythic+ trash pulls, which are by their very nature, always at least 2-3 mobs, often more. That is an AoE situation and, with current tuning, VF/VE will always be superior there.

Granted they didn't say "THE TOOL" but how else do you read that particular line? If it said just leveling and outdoor content I would fully agree with you, but they specifically included Mythic+ trash in that statement.

There are situations in M+ that are neither AoE or a boss. They're not common, but they exist (such as during Raging weeks, or Bolstering). I mean, Shadow has no fundamental issues on either AoE or sustained ST, so there's nothing there for DP to fix.

What DP is clearly intended to fix (since it's a single target spell, and since they state that the issue is "unrewarding when you can't maintain insanity generation"), is short single target/light cleave, with sporadic downtime. 2-3 targets is generally considered cleave, whereas 4+ is where AoE begins. The more targets you have, the worse DP gets. Since we don't have the exact intention by Blizzard, I just personally assume that's the case since that's the only situation where Shadow really needs help.

It does seem strange for them to include M+ as the intended usage, I agree. I can't say why they did, I can only guess.

[Yvaelle]

What you're failing to consider for some reason:

A) DP costs less insanity
B) DP is instant
C) DP heals
D) VF insanity drain (means you often start fights with 0 insanity, which you'd do much more rarely with DP)

A) Everyone has used Legacy of the Void, for all content, since Emerald Nightmare nerfed S2M into the ground (rightfully so). So it's 60v50, in increments of 15-40 (insanity/GCD generation).
B) With LotV, Void Eruption is also a single GCD, it just cannot be cast while moving, which is very minor benefit - especcially because if movement is an issue, Void Bolt opens up 1/3rd of GCDs for shuffling, which DP doesn't provide.
C) Who cares? I guess I get to say this from a place of BIS privilege, but unless you stand in fire you never cast heals as Shadow anyways. Shadowmend heals for 180% SP in one GCD (and still feels weak), DP heals for 60% SP over 12 seconds. I bet DP with 100% uptime gets outhealed by like 3% Leech.
D) This would only matter in situations where you are chainpulling for longer than 12 seconds, in which Voidform is going to destroy Devouring Plague.

DP isn't supposed to be better than VF in long fights. Even 12 seconds after DP is cast is a long fight with last build's numbers. DP peaks when it's cast, not when it ends. DPs ideal fight is one where you're moving a lot, taking damage (slowing casts, needing heals), and with regular 10+ sec intervals between fights. This is what DP is intended to be better than VF for, and essentially nothing else.

As I showed, even if you only have a single GCD or two, and you have 50/60 Insanity, and it's against a single target, Void Eruption three times the DPET of DP's upfront damage (72% SP vs 209% SP). If the fight is only going to last 2 more GCDs, you still cast Void Eruption into Shadow Word: Void (143% SP) or Void Bolt (132% SP) or Shadow Word: Death (420% SP), or even 1 GCD of Mind Flay inside Voidform (82% SP vs 72% SP).

As such, what it needs to be useful -ever- is to be stronger than VE per insanity cost (in situations where VE is the killing blow, we can assume VE does 209% damage at 90 insanity cost). In other words, it needs to beat 2.32%/insanity (3.5 with LotV). If we count healing as a part of its power (123% damage and healing, or 246% total) it's already at 4.92%/insanity.

Void Eruption does not have an Insanity Cost, it has a Minimum Insanity Requirement of 60 or 90: so your %/insanity metric doesn't work. You can press Void Eruption at 60 Insanity and then press Devouring Plague and have 10 Insanity left over. You cannot do the reverse. Counting healing as being equal to damage is silly, by that metric Shadowmend is our most powerful nuke (180% SP). Utility has not significantly cost damage since TBC.

However, that just means it's useful when all stars align. If the purpose of DP is to be the open world single target insanity spender (5-20 sec fights), there should be no doubt that DP is better - ie VE/VF should only win when it actually gets to either AoE with VE or last a while with VF. So yes, it definitely needs a buff.

It definitely doesn't need a 5x buff. Is the apparent 50% buff on beta enough? Can't say. But it was already (rarely!) useful with the old numbers.

No it doesn't. Even on single target fights it's bad on 1 GCD, 2 GCDs, 12 GCDs, Infinite GCDs. There is no circumstance where it's good. If you buff it by 50%, it's more valuable than 1 GCD of Mind Flay, but it's still less valuable than Void Bolt, Mind Blast, Death, Void Eruption, etc.

Lastly, I will admit that DP being castable in VF is a strange combination that should somehow be discouraged/disabled, since it simply makes it so that the best way to use DP is to do VE at 100 insanity -> DP -> VB -> DP, ending VF and starting to gather insanity again. Easiest fix is to make it unusable in VF, but I agree that isn't ideal.

The worst bit about disabling it in Void Eruption, which seems the only fix to this strange interaction - is that having something that could intentionally knock us out of Voidform quickly might actually be beneficial. If I were designing an Insanity Spender it would be exactly so that we could intentionally exit Voidform early sometimes. So giving us our first Insanity Spender, but blocking it from doing the thing that makes sense would be truly bizarre.

As example, a more interesting Insanity spender might have been Shadow Word: Death. Do something like this:

Shadow Word: Death - Deals 150% SP damage to the target. Consumes DOTs on the target to deal 50% more damage per DOT (multiplicative). Consumes all Voidform stacks to deal 2 x Voidform Stacks % bonus damage (ex. 25 stacks = +50% damage). Consumes all Insanity to deal % bonus damage (ex. 100 Insanity = +100% damage).

This means a Shadow Word: Death on a target without DOTs would deal only 150% damage. Without DOTs but with 100 Insanity would deal 300% damage. With DOTs and 100 Insanity would deal 600% damage. With DOTs, with 100 Insanity, with 25 stacks of Voidform would deal 900% SP damage. This would not only give Shadow a way to kill the occasional target without entering Voidform, it would mean at the end of a Voidform we could get some pretty nasty "Chaos Bolt" esque nukes off. Which would feel rewarding.

It would also allow us to exit Voidform and wipe DOTs off a target whenever we wanted, like our Mind Spike. That's what an Insanity Spender should do.

[Segus1992]

A) Everyone has used Legacy of the Void, for all content, since Emerald Nightmare nerfed S2M into the ground (rightfully so). So it's 60v50, in increments of 15-40 (insanity/GCD generation).
B) With LotV, Void Eruption is also a single GCD, it just cannot be cast while moving, which is very minor benefit - especcially because if movement is an issue, Void Bolt opens up 1/3rd of GCDs for shuffling, which DP doesn't provide.
C) Who cares? I guess I get to say this from a place of BIS privilege, but unless you stand in fire you never cast heals as Shadow anyways. Shadowmend heals for 180% SP in one GCD (and still feels weak), DP heals for 60% SP over 12 seconds. I bet DP with 100% uptime gets outhealed by like 3% Leech.
D) This would only matter in situations where you are chainpulling for longer than 12 seconds, in which Voidform is going to destroy Devouring Plague.

Yes, LotV is the standard talent, but assuming we're using a talent that only affects VE/VF when comparing it with a new insanity spender is pretty narrow minded - if DP was equal to VE when using LotV, using S2M (which is a lot easier to use now, especially in the situations DP is meant for) would make DP too strong.
C) You're making this comparison with current BfA values and content in mind though - if we're going to have SWD in our rotation, healing is definitely going to be more valuable. Yes, it's not a huge deal in most content, but during leveling and in Torghast it may become very good. And yes, if you'd die without casting a heal, I'd definitely consider that heal's power an effective part of your kit. Remember, we're not just talking sims with an ability that's meant primarily for open world (and Torghast).
D) I agree VF absolutely wins when chainpulling, but when you have a gap in your generation, VF is gonna drop, and DP isn't (assuming that gap isn't 30++ sec).

As I showed, even if you only have a single GCD or two, and you have 50/60 Insanity, and it's against a single target, Void Eruption three times the DPET of DP's upfront damage (72% SP vs 209% SP). If the fight is only going to last 2 more GCDs, you still cast Void Eruption into Shadow Word: Void (143% SP) or Void Bolt (132% SP) or Shadow Word: Death (420% SP), or even 1 GCD of Mind Flay inside Voidform (82% SP vs 72% SP).

Again, you're comparing based on a set talent choice to measure whether a new ability compares. It's impossible to compare when you're including such a wide range of factors - you can't come to a conclusion whether talents need to change or DP needs to change when you're including talents, for instance. That's why you should do it baseline. DP also doesn't need to be the best burst damage we possibly have - it doesn't need to beat SWD <20% (nothing does), so it's pointless to make that comparison really. DP needs to beat VE + a few extra GCDs, meaning the biggest hurdle for DP to beat is VE + VB.

Void Eruption does not have an Insanity Cost, it has a Minimum Insanity Requirement of 60 or 90: so your %/insanity metric doesn't work. You can press Void Eruption at 60 Insanity and then press Devouring Plague and have 10 Insanity left over. You cannot do the reverse. Counting healing as being equal to damage is silly, by that metric Shadowmend is our most powerful nuke (180% SP). Utility has not significantly cost damage since TBC.

Well, in the scenario I gave you it effectively does. If you don't have anything to cast on after VE is used (the most extreme scenario), your insanity will just run out and the effective cost of VE is 90. Again, if you're dying and you're solo, do you not cast PWS/SM? Shadowmend IS one of our most effective spells, but only when it's necessary to cast (which is almost never whenever you have a healer).

No it doesn't. Even on single target fights it's bad on 1 GCD, 2 GCDs, 12 GCDs, Infinite GCDs. There is no circumstance where it's good. If you buff it by 50%, it's more valuable than 1 GCD of Mind Flay, but it's still less valuable than Void Bolt, Mind Blast, Death, Void Eruption, etc.

In a pure DPS scenario where instants and heals don't matter, and we're using VE/VF talents, yeah that's true. But that's silly and isn't a good ground for comparison at all.

The worst bit about disabling it in Void Eruption, which seems the only fix to this strange interaction - is that having something that could intentionally knock us out of Voidform quickly might actually be beneficial. If I were designing an Insanity Spender it would be exactly so that we could intentionally exit Voidform early sometimes. So giving us our first Insanity Spender, but blocking it from doing the thing that makes sense would be truly bizarre.

As example, a more interesting Insanity spender might have been Shadow Word: Death. Do something like this:

Shadow Word: Death - Deals 150% SP damage to the target. Consumes DOTs on the target to deal 50% more damage per DOT (multiplicative). Consumes all Voidform stacks to deal 2 x Voidform Stacks % bonus damage (ex. 25 stacks = +50% damage). Consumes all Insanity to deal % bonus damage (ex. 100 Insanity = +100% damage).

This means a Shadow Word: Death on a target without DOTs would deal only 150% damage. Without DOTs but with 100 Insanity would deal 300% damage. With DOTs and 100 Insanity would deal 600% damage. With DOTs, with 100 Insanity, with 25 stacks of Voidform would deal 900% SP damage. This would not only give Shadow a way to kill the occasional target without entering Voidform, it would mean at the end of a Voidform we could get some pretty nasty "Chaos Bolt" esque nukes off. Which would feel rewarding.

It would also allow us to exit Voidform and wipe DOTs off a target whenever we wanted, like our Mind Spike. That's what an Insanity Spender should do.

I don't disagree that there are different ways to do this that would be more exciting, but Blizzard was clear that they didn't want to add to the rotation, and your suggestion would absolutely add to the rotation in almost every situation. What I've been talking about has only been what's possible within Blizzard's set parameters.

I don't disagree that a way to exit VF on command would be bad, but it's clearly not what Blizzard wants, and as such the only real solution is to make it unusable in VF. To make up for the difference in spell damage that VF makes (10%), you could simply tack on a "your other spells deal 10% more damage to the target for the duration", which would also cement its usage as a single target spell.

[Nikeyla]

Void Form can be challenging to utilize to its full potential in some combat situations

Lol, thats a nice way to say its mechanic is a non-functioning garbage.
Dunno, but honestly after playing the current SP as a former SP main, I must say that i hate it, like most ppl do. Its like a constant struggle between wanting to use void form to have fun, do some meaningful dmg, but then I cant use it in the most crucial moment. So I just not use it at all except the specific moment, because it might not be ready if I risk it now. This might get better if you repeatedly play SP in the content and you get used to it, but I dont enjoy it, so how could I spend tons of hours repeating the content over and over again to learn using it perfectly timed, right?

From what I read in the post, I cant see SP being somewhat good or fun compared to other classes in any content outside of maybe raids, unless they change their mind and rework void form. So for me, it looks like no change. However, I probably dont understand, whats supposed to be different about SW: D. Does that mean it is usable at all time, but under 20% it does 200% dmg?

[Venara]

However, I probably dont understand, whats supposed to be different about SW: D. Does that mean it is usable at all time, but under 20% it does 200% dmg?

Exactly that. You can press the button any time.

You're incentivized to do it too because it generates insanity. Also, since Yvaelle put it so well:

The backlash is insane right now.

It would be 210% spellpower (baseline) * 2 = 420% (execute range), then if it crits * 2 = 840% spellpower.

That's like shooting 3 chaos bolts into your own face, during a progression fight.

[Daedius]

Maybe make Devouring Plague a moderate CD instead of being used off Insanity... say 20 seconds CD, where the CD can be made shorter by interactions with your other spells, such as;

- Crit with Mind Blast and Void Bolt
- Mind Flay channeling
- SW: Death

[Nikeyla]

Exactly that. You can press the button any time.

You're incentivized to do it too because it generates insanity. Also, since Yvaelle put it so well:

Ah, so its garbo again...I hoped for some serious sp rework and they just add some self damage to us. This might be okayish in group/raid scenarios, where you get randomly healed or devouring plague could slowly heal this up, but its randomly risky af especially in situations like pvp, extra dmg taken of a boss or something. My guess is that they will balance SP around using it all the time, so in the end everybody will hate us AGAIN, including ourselves. This kinda reminds me the old meme picture that used to run around with mage dev team (group of suited guys) vs priest dev team (bunch of monkeys standing around a laptop)...It might be an interesting mechanic, if SP actually was any serious threat to the enemy, but from the usual SP experience, this is very unlikely to happen. It might justify the risk and playing well if the performance would be there, but that sounds like casual unfriendly and thats not the blizz way im afraid.

[Rustedsaint]

With the current lotv reducing the required insanity for vf, I don’t see much of a use for dp.
Even on trash it probably still be better to do erm up/ms them.