so many useless talents ...

[Fantazma]

I play as rogue subtlety (yes, I am quite stubborn) and you may not agree with me but this spec should be the champion in "useless skills" that need to be removed as soon as possible.
See below the list of talents that I will never (NEVER) touch in this life:

Talents:
- Weapon Master
(It's like having a gun with a 15% chance that the shot will work)
- Shadow Focus
(Total place-holder. No one will ever choose that in the same row as Subterfuge and Nightstalker. In fact ... Subterfuge in my opinion should be a passive skill for the rogue subtlety ..)
- Cheat Death.
(Ok, you die and that talent gives you another 3 seconds to live which is enough for you to say "wow !! Where did this DH come from?" ... and then die again)
- Night Terrors
(In this row you can even choose "shot in the dark" if your game-play is lacking in energy .... but seriously ... who will stop choosing "Prey on the weak"?)
- Alacrity
(In this row the question remains whether we choose between "Dark Shadows" or "Enveloping Shadows". The only certainty is: We will not choose Alacrity)
- Shuriken Tornado
(Seriously Blizzard, we have the expectation that it is in this row that we will have the coolest and most powerful talents. What is this crap doing there? In fact ... stop forcing us this nonsense that Rogue Sub needs to be strong in AoE damage. If i would like that i would play with a mage ...)

And what about PVP-talents?
There you only have 4 options to choose from: Cold Blood, Smoke Bomb, Shadowy Duel and Dagger in The Dark.
Everything else is pure place-holder.

In my opinion this is something of extreme importance and is NOT being said in the Shadowlands alpha / beta feed-back. We have many (MANY) talents that we will never touch ... and someone should be thinking of exchanging them for something more useful right now.

[StillMcfuu]

I play as rogue subtlety (yes, I am quite stubborn) and you may not agree with me but this spec should be the champion in "useless skills" that need to be removed as soon as possible.
See below the list of talents that I will never (NEVER) touch in this life:

Talents:
- Weapon Master
(It's like having a gun with a 15% chance that the shot will work)
- Shadow Focus
(Total place-holder. No one will ever choose that in the same row as Subterfuge and Nightstalker. In fact ... Subterfuge in my opinion should be a passive skill for the rogue subtlety ..)
- Cheat Death.
(Ok, you die and that talent gives you another 3 seconds to live which is enough for you to say "wow !! Where did this DH come from?" ... and then die again)
- Night Terrors
(In this row you can even choose "shot in the dark" if your game-play is lacking in energy .... but seriously ... who will stop choosing "Prey on the weak"?)
- Alacrity
(In this row the question remains whether we choose between "Dark Shadows" or "Enveloping Shadows". The only certainty is: We will not choose Alacrity)
- Shuriken Tornado
(Seriously Blizzard, we have the expectation that it is in this row that we will have the coolest and most powerful talents. What is this crap doing there? In fact ... stop forcing us this nonsense that Rogue Sub needs to be strong in AoE damage. If i would like that i would play with a mage ...)

And what about PVP-talents?
There you only have 4 options to choose from: Cold Blood, Smoke Bomb, Shadowy Duel and Dagger in The Dark.
Everything else is pure place-holder.

In my opinion this is something of extreme importance and is NOT being said in the Shadowlands alpha / beta feed-back. We have many (MANY) talents that we will never touch ... and someone should be thinking of exchanging them for something more useful right now.

Weapon Master - really should be talking about gloomblade here, as it's really useless for half the game (pve). WM issue is it does nothing for multitarget, where find weakness does as well as creating a predictable damage window single target. But you could use WM if you felt like it, it's not far behind FW. WM would probably be better if it proc'd on white damage too.

Shadowfocus- not a bad talent, better in early tier situations, helps from becoming energy starved. Stalker is better in late tier due to better stats. Sub doesn't do much for Sub (ironic).

CheatDeath- I don't really know your issue with this, for some people it's their go to progression talent, I prefer elusiveness because it's a ridiculous short cooldown damage mitigation, but some fights cheat death is like having an extra Shroud so you can cheese multiple boss mechanics. If anything soothing darkness is shit, it's only a pvp talent and higher level pvpers are going to break you out of stealth faster than the health regen will even do anything for you, let alone who would have enough time to be inactive and let it tick... it's the equivalent of getting off one first aid tick, yeah it might marginally win you a fight, but both CD and Elusive are way better.

Night terrors- it has its uses in mythic+ or Zul situations, but it's pretty boring regardless. Also other specs can aoe slow naturally, actually I think SL won't matter here, sub will have crippling poison, so ... this is hopefully on the chopping block. Shot in the Dark is alright, situational though, generally prey is always better, but if you have to stun 2 or more in quick succession, shot is better.

Alacrity- another early tier talent, it will be better in SL because shadow dance will only be 1 longer cooldown ability, it won't be spammed like it is now. I believe the other 2 talents will be getting reworked.

Shuriken Tornado- this ability sucks, but it's also a far way removed from the theory craft surrounding it when it was first being tested. STornado sucks because Shadow Technique fills the same role while being superior single target. STornado was amazing for Zul though lol.
Out of everything you mentioned, this should most likely just be removed and replaced. Really it should be replaced with a single target option maybe with slight cleave.

[Coldkil]

To me they're not really useless - the issue is that they are either really underpowered compared to the other two options or they're fighting with one so strong it's mandatory and should arguably be baseline. Even worse when in a row you have three talents that accomplish 3 different things and two of them are VERY niche.

It's not a problem of being useless or not. It's a problem of competition/balance.

PS: i'm assuming you just talk about sub PvP, cause apparently it's the only topic running (and to me it just looks rogue players care about very specific/peculiar things while the class and game are way broader). Anyway, Cheat Death is an incredibly useful talent and has a lot of representation. For the rest, you're pretty much spot on.8

[Kaver]

- Cheat Death.

Cheat death is one of the most OP talents in the game for PVE content. It is basically a free battleress for the Rogue. So it is definitely not useless in Mythic Raiding and M+. But I agree that there are a lot of "dead" talents. This also apply to Assa and Outlaw... and actually most specs in the game sadly.

- - - Updated - - -

the issue is that they are either really underpowered

I don't understand why Blizzard let undertuned talents be dead for an entire expansions. I can maybe understand talents which are dead because of mechanical issue, but I really don't understand why Blizzard don't fix talents which are simply undertuned.

[Saltysquidoon]

The capstone talents for every rogue spec are all designed terribly. It's not a pvp sub issue.

[Coldkil]

I don't understand why Blizzard let undertuned talents be dead for an entire expansions. I can maybe understand talents which are dead because of mechanical issue, but I really don't understand why Blizzard don't fix talents which are simply undertuned.

Agree. This or give the underpowered version as baseline and give us something else. Again, all talents more or less CAN have some use, if the game lets you to actually take advantage of them. The problem is that most of them have to compete with stuff either so strong or so viable no one's gonna really bother.

[Pandragon]

Most of those are not useless talents, especially Cheat Death. You want useless talents? Play a windwalker.

Celerity
Energizing Elixir
Tiger Tail Sweep
Inner Strength
Rushing Jade Wind
Spiritual Focus

And for the entire expansion: Serenity

[Wildpantz]

A cheat death abiliry is probably the most op thing in the game make mechanics million times easier

[Fantazma]

A cheat death abiliry is probably the most op thing in the game make mechanics million times easier

I assume that I only make PVP content and therefore my opinion comes from a pvp perspective.
Maybe 'Cheat Death' has some use in PVE .... but in my game-play that talent is not worth 1 cent.

[Coldkil]

I assume that I only make PVP content and therefore my opinion comes from a pvp perspective.
Maybe 'Cheat Death' has some use in PVE .... but in my game-play that talent is not worth 1 cent.

Then you should have stated at the beginning. Also, PvP is only one part of the game (as Sub is only one of 3 specs), so calling a talent useless in a specific scenario doesn't mean it is everywhere. Cheat Death is used by 99% of rogues for all the rest of the activities.

Again, it's the only thing i have to say, for the rest it's basically spot on.

[shoegazing]

I assume that I only make PVP content and therefore my opinion comes from a pvp perspective.
Maybe 'Cheat Death' has some use in PVE .... but in my game-play that talent is not worth 1 cent.

This mentality ruins the game. It's the same as when PvE players cry about a talent that is obviously designed for PvP players.

It should be simple to understand that NOT EVERY TALENT ON EVERY ROW IS DESIGNED FOR YOU, but for some reason people are repeatedly incapable of understanding this very basic and obvious point.

I am also a PvP Rogue. I don't have any problem with Cheat Death. I would never personally use it as it's a dumb passive while Elusiveness is super powerful and requires me to time it properly, but that's not a problem because CHEAT DEATH IS NOT FOR ME.

The ENTIRE PROBLEM of garbage, dumbed down, generic, homogenized, pruned Subtlety Rogue design since Legion started when a bunch of PvE players started bawling their eyes out about PvP driven designs. That's why we have such a shit Subtlety design today. Because having 2/3 Rogue specs be great for PvE wasn't enough, they had to make it 3/3 for PvE and 0/3 for PvP.

Please don't engage in the same shitty, ignorant, and selfish behavior that so many of the PvE Rogues did. This is how you wind up with generic, homogenized specs and talents that are mediocre for every audience and truly exciting for none.

Infracted.

[Radazar]

This mentality ruins the game. It's the same as when PvE players cry about a talent that is obviously designed for PvP players.

It should be simple to understand that NOT EVERY TALENT ON EVERY ROW IS DESIGNED FOR YOU, but for some reason people are repeatedly incapable of understanding this very basic and obvious point.

I am also a PvP Rogue. I don't have any problem with Cheat Death. I would never personally use it as it's a dumb passive while Elusiveness is super powerful and requires me to time it properly, but that's not a problem because CHEAT DEATH IS NOT FOR ME.

The ENTIRE PROBLEM of garbage, dumbed down, generic, homogenized, pruned Subtlety Rogue design since Legion started when a bunch of PvE players started bawling their eyes out about PvP driven designs. That's why we have such a shit Subtlety design today. Because having 2/3 Rogue specs be great for PvE wasn't enough, they had to make it 3/3 for PvE and 0/3 for PvP.

Please don't engage in the same shitty, ignorant, and selfish behavior that so many of the PvE Rogues did. This is how you wind up with generic, homogenized specs and talents that are mediocre for every audience and truly exciting for none.

so wanting to have every talent use full in ever aspect of the game ruins the game, but wanting a spec to be use full in something more than PvP is to much? you cant be so stuck in the past, they wont reroll it back so you might as well find a way to like the spec, learn to play on of the others, or just play a new class. the days of one spec being the uber PvP god spec is over.

[Sinte]

I assume that I only make PVP content and therefore my opinion comes from a pvp perspective.
Maybe 'Cheat Death' has some use in PVE .... but in my game-play that talent is not worth 1 cent.

Nobody knows you, so making that assumption is dumb first and foremost. Second of all, you have pvp-only talents - complain about those if you don't want them in "muh pvp". The rest are global talents, and as 90%+ population is pve and not pvp, we can give 0 shits about what you think about cheat death.

Infracted.