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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don’t buy gold but gold in classic is easy to come by and plentiful. People pay like 20k and up for items on gbid runs so gold isn’t a struggle for classic

    And in retail it’s more than 1 mythic. It’s 4, plus torghast, plus rbg, keeping your covenant and ranks up to date, etc.
    So you don't kill mythic bosses to get items from vault?
    Why would you do torghast? By this time everyone who is doing it has their 4th legendary fully upgraded. Do you need 4 of them to raid? What class BTW?
    RBG? Why? Just Why? I mean do you need 9 slots filled in just because they exist? I am key pusher and I don't even tryhard that much on non-push weeks. Doing a dungeon a day max.
    Keeping covenant ranks up to date -> Raids, gets anima, quest complete... TO UNLOCK COSMETIC PURCHASE
    Goes to Maw, the horror of catching 20 souls half AFK at the same spot...TO UNLOCK COSMETIC PURCHASE very relevant for raiding ofc.


    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Also, what if I don’t want to do any m+? I don’t enjoy it very much. It creates issues with the dps and healers who want to do 10 m+ every week and one of the two MT refuses to do them. I’m not the asshole, that’s just bad game design
    I mean... do you refuse to tank dungeons/old raids in classic? I don't see how that would be different?

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I haven’t logged in since we cleared aq40.
    Wait what...?
    And you talk about raiding Naxx...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Agreed on this. Shadowlands is killing casual players. M+ is the bigger culprit though. I get that hardcore players have a lot of fun learning how to be super coordinated and do big pulls while timing interrupts and cc perfectly, but I honestly just don’t want to try that hard or do that much prep for a game, and the difference between a 12 and a 16 is pretty small so the game kind of expects me to.

    My pc broke earlier this week and normally I would be in a rush to get it fixed, but this time I’ve been like... meh.

    I think it would be different if progression was more gear focused, and the content got noticeably easier when you get more gear, but most casual runs are failing due to mechanics that people don’t understand and they aren’t learning from mistakes either because the game doesn’t do a good job of telling you what you did wrong, so it just sucks.
    But it gets easier with gear. A +10 on iLvl 180 is a good deal harder than on 220.

    And the affixes themselves are quite obvious without big explanation.

    Tornado move out. Big bomb with life ontop kill it. Big red pool on the floor and suddenly the mobs heal... mh? Move out? Dot on tank when he gets damage... pull smaller, cc or whatever you can do. all of them are quite obvious in what they do. The ONLY ones i would say are not that obvious is the one who mobs spanw the small adds and the +10 seasonal affix.

    Also how is the existence of harder content killing casual players? You don't have to go over+9. Not even all the raiders do it. If you remove the time constraint you have to make the whole dungeon incredibly hard because the mobs are not that dangerous themsleves even on high keys.
    With infinite time everyone gets through every dungeon.

    What i would say, is that the lack of unique open world stuff is bad for the game in general. Not just casual gamers. It is just boring. Get max level and do basically everything again you did while leveling just with a talking head if you get into the vincinity.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    True, you only grind it for achievs or cosmetics /mounts.
    I agree to both of you, but "farming cosmetics" is the only endgame SL offers besides raiding, m+ and pvp. And yes, i spared out choreghast and maw as endgame features, they are even more irrelevant than anima and cosmetics.

    Legion and BfA offered at least the possibility to grind some charpower in the endgame. Islands felt way more rewarding than boreghast, maw and "covenant specials" and m+ felt worth doing it.

    But thats only my opinion. If some1 likes to grind for cosmetics, its okay for me.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post

    Well no it's not that there's only 1 viable way but rather 1 super optimized way based on time put in per reward obtained. It's a balancing act which Blizzard failed this time around by making gear acquisition in PvP too easy compared to M+ and raiding.

    Another potential fix is to make PvP gear scale less well in PvE so that PvE players don't feel obligated to grind PvP for the gear to do PvE things (and vice versa).
    If PvP allows you to get 1.5 pieces of 226 gear each week, one of which you get to pick, (weekly box plus the 550 conquest) and PvE only allows you to get one 226 piece of gear a week that's completely random, I think it's safe to say there's only really one viable way. It's not really about being optimized, it's that you could do PvE for months and just literally never get a 226 weapon, or belt, or whatever pieces you're missing. That can't happen with PvP, you are 100% guaranteed to get your items if you spend time doing it.

    PvE should have just had a valor system with a vendor from the beginning the way PvP does, and if m+ was a higher base ilvl reward then the two systems would have been pretty much equal.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    I agree to both of you, but "farming cosmetics" is the only endgame SL offers besides raiding, m+ and pvp. And yes, i spared out choreghast and maw as endgame features, they are even more irrelevant than anima and cosmetics.

    Legion and BfA offered at least the possibility to grind some charpower in the endgame. Islands felt way more rewarding than boreghast, maw and "covenant specials" and m+ felt worth doing it.

    But thats only my opinion. If some1 likes to grind for cosmetics, its okay for me.
    I'm still farming anima and I'll probably doing this until very late into expansion. But I like mounts & cosmetics Since I don't raid and herb-gathering bores me I don't have enough money for potential mythic raid boss boost with mount, it was the real tragedy for me when they increased the gold on one char to 10 mil. But that's the side topic for another discussion....
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 2021-03-04 at 04:45 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    If PvP allows you to get 1.5 pieces of 226 gear each week, one of which you get to pick, (weekly box plus the 550 conquest) and PvE only allows you to get one 226 piece of gear a week that's completely random, I think it's safe to say there's only really one viable way. It's not really about being optimized, it's that you could do PvE for months and just literally never get a 226 weapon, or belt, or whatever pieces you're missing. That can't happen with PvP, you are 100% guaranteed to get your items if you spend time doing it.

    PvE should have just had a valor system with a vendor from the beginning the way PvP does, and if m+ was a higher base ilvl reward then the two systems would have been pretty much equal.
    Probably, but an untimed +14 is way easier and accessible to everyone than 2100 in PvP.

  7. #107
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    PvE should have just had a valor system with a vendor from the beginning the way PvP does, and if m+ was a higher base ilvl reward then the two systems would have been pretty much equal.
    With 9.0.5, we're basically getting the first part of that. Still not getting ilv parity but it's a small step towards that balancing but don't worry, in a month from now, we'll get the similar argument of why must a raider do M+/PvP to gear up instead of just doing raids.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Affixes are obvious, mechanics aren’t. To give a specific example: I ran sanguine depths 0 about 15 times because I needed my legendary. I never realized that you were supposed to run out from the chains. In m0, you just healed through it.

    Then I’m doing m8 and I die and I don’t know why. I figure it out by looking at my death log and a guide online after the run is over, but at the time I was just dead for no obvious reason. I never even knew I had chains on me. There’s got to be 50 mechanics like this spread across the 8 dungeons.

    Call me lazy, call me entitled, whatever, but that’s just not fun, particularly in gogogo environments where wipes are not tolerated and someone failing the chains is often enough for the group to disband. It’s a nightmare.
    Imo i think thats the point of these lower difficulties. Around +8 is where I learned that too. But 1 death, or even a wipe or 2 at this difficulty won't cause a deplete.

    When I was doing each dungeon, I focused different enemies in each pack every other time thru there. I think more ppl shld so they can see the spells

  9. #109
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee76 View Post
    I agree to both of you, but "farming cosmetics" is the only endgame SL offers besides raiding, m+ and pvp.
    When has WoW offered more at endgame? Sure there are and always have been things you can do if you want to... pet battles, farming pets or mounts, achievements etc.

    But in terms of player power progress, WoW has always been "do PVE or do PVP". PVE meant 5 mans until that gear didnt matter, then do it for badges if those existed, and raid. Now it means 5 mans until M0 doesnt matter, then M+ as high as you want and raid at whatever level you want.

    So? Nothing has changed for 17 years in this respect aside from adding Arenas in TBC and M+ a few years ago, and those are just alternate ways to do PVE and PVP. What do people expect to have at endgame for power progression?

    They added cosmetic stuff because some people don't care about power progression past some relatively easy to achieve level and they wanted those people to have something to do, hence achievements, pet battles etc. So, we have power progression and we have QoL/cosmetic things.
    Last edited by clevin; 2021-03-04 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Affixes are obvious, mechanics aren’t. To give a specific example: I ran sanguine depths 0 about 15 times because I needed my legendary. I never realized that you were supposed to run out from the chains. In m0, you just healed through it.

    Then I’m doing m8 and I die and I don’t know why. I figure it out by looking at my death log and a guide online after the run is over, but at the time I was just dead for no obvious reason. I never even knew I had chains on me. There’s got to be 50 mechanics like this spread across the 8 dungeons.

    Call me lazy, call me entitled, whatever, but that’s just not fun, particularly in gogogo environments where wipes are not tolerated and someone failing the chains is often enough for the group to disband. It’s a nightmare.
    Well yeah... you die from it and try stuff out. On low level its no big deal. Higher up you have to deal with abilities better or at all.

    Thank god gives something "new" in a way. It is not even the frist chain debuff. Nearly every chain in wow is broken by moving away. In very few cases you have to keep them on you.

    They game can't and should not explain everything in detail. Let something to the player to figure out. If you are really into progress you should read up on it or just ask a mate.
    The bosses allready tell you what to do now via yellow text many times.

    I don't think it is too much to ask of the players to look a little bit into what is happening with them.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Agreed on this. Shadowlands is killing casual players.
    lol. seriously?

    Shadowlands is amazing for casual players. It's also great for altoholics. Several sources of itemization (casuals don't care about minimal ilvl differences), cool legendaries, solo content, butt loads of cosmetics, bla bla bla.

    But "M+ is the biggest culprit" and "is killing casual players"? LOL. Casual players rarely even set foot in a M+ in the first place.

    What an abhorrent post, geez.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    There are lots of people who consider players who haven’t timed a +15 or done 3/10 mythic casual. That’s what I’m referring to.
    Ok, so those are 'casual'.

    What about the vast majority of the game population that doesn't even do that? "ultra casual"? "filthy casuals"? "casual'ers"?

    It just gets confusing at this point.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post

    I don't think it is too much to ask of the players to look a little bit into what is happening with them.
    You should tell the players this. They self sort who's figured out and who hasn't, thats exactly why raider io exists.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilford View Post
    So because you don't enjoy M+ or PvP that means there's a content drought? Interesting enlightened raid logger take!
    If that is your argument, then this would mean that there never was any content draught since legion, because you could always pvp or do m+.
    If thats you take: Fair enough, glad you enjoy the game so much.
    Not many people share this idea though.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    If that is your argument, then this would mean that there never was any content draught since legion, because you could always pvp or do m+.
    If thats you take: Fair enough, glad you enjoy the game so much.
    Not many people share this idea though.
    I don’t understand where you wanna go with this.

    Endgame has been mainly about dungeoning, raiding or pvping since, well, forever.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I don’t understand where you wanna go with this.

    Endgame has been mainly about dungeoning, raiding or pvping since, well, forever.
    I don't understand where you want to go with this either.

    I'm saying there is a content drought because there is only m+ (which rewards no gear anymore) and pvp left outside or raiding, which ALWAYS was the indication of a content drought. It just usually happened later in an expansion cycle and not as fast as this time.

    Saying "but you can do m+ and pvp" means that your argument is "there never was and never will be a content drought because you can ALWAYS do m+ and pvp" and that attitude, while being a very positive one, is very detached from the average player.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I don't understand where you want to go with this either.

    I'm saying there is a content drought because there is only m+ (which rewards no gear anymore) and pvp left outside or raiding, which ALWAYS was the indication of a content drought. It just usually happened later in an expansion cycle and not as fast as this time.

    Saying "but you can do m+ and pvp" means that your argument is "there never was and never will be a content drought because you can ALWAYS do m+ and pvp" and that attitude, while being a very positive one, is very detached from the average player.
    Dude I really don’t know what to say. I’m not interested in pets or cosmetics or mounts, so all i do is dungeoning since quite a while (and I’m having fun). Aside from that I do the Ve’nari weeklies, the purple callings, the two renown quests, the world boss, the WQ that give 250 anima and basically nothing more.

    What content do you exactly feel it’s missing?

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude I really don’t know what to say. I’m not interested in pets or cosmetics or mounts, so all i do is dungeoning since quite a while (and I’m having fun). Aside from that I do the Ve’nari weeklies, the purple callings, the two renown quests, the world boss, the WQ that give 250 anima and basically nothing more.

    What content do you exactly feel it’s missing?
    Its not the content thats missing, its the motivation to actually do it (like e.g. the titanforged or the AP system from legion / BfA)

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    The addicts just call you lazy anytime you say you don't want to grind in this game. Also good luck getting into mythic raids without doing M+. Everyone posting here doing Mythic raid is already in established groups. Mythic raiders are raid logging, that means the game is terrible imo.

    Casuals can't progress and Mythic raiders are raid logging... Hmmm....
    Saying Shadowlands is bad because raiders are raidlogging is bizarre because you might as well be talking about TBC or Wotlk with the same statement. Aside from Legion and BFA (to a lesser extent) which both had a power grind on the side, you could argue every expansion has been a raidlogging expansion. It used to be a meme in Wotlk about running laps around Dalaran not having anything to do in between raids, and the same with SW/Org in Cata. The garrison in WoD and so on.

    The AP power grind of Legion and BFA was loved by some and hated by some but now they returned more to the approach of 'the grind is optional' which means SL feels more closer to how Wotlk/Cata was played than Legion/BFA.

  20. #120
    Completely agree with the first post!

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