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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If you're being sat for playing a non-meta class it probably has more to do with you being a dogshit player than it does the class you're playing. Again, you're wrong. Moreover, this whole tangent has almost nothing to do with 10M unless you're trying to support the ass-backwards claim that homogenization of classes is somehow a prudent design choice.
    Never said I was sat... because I never actually was, and I'm typically top DPS; also, I can tell you know ya'll know I'm right because you're getting so emotional about it, so you resort to insults rather than have a logical conversation. Triggered much? Anyways Relapses, you're right about most things, and can tilt me to your side usually, but you're flat out wrong about this. Concede.

    BLIZZ PLEASE BRING BACK 10M! (Relapses caught me)
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2021-12-22 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #742
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../25#bracket=20
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/28#boss=2435

    define: non overgeared
    list all non meta specs

    I know you need to keep dancing around. but the evidence your original claim is wrong has been posted. FFS you didnt even list non over geared in your first claim.
    Gonna keep reminding you because i HAVE to "Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat. That's just the reality. " You can complete all content without being sat. You have no conditions on this statement. It is wrong, people have killed the boss as everything. Just accept your claim was shit and wrong. All you have done is jump to goal posts trying to add conditions to your claim because thats all you can do.
    It's true that you can play anything, but most fights come with certain classes that provide extremely necessary utility so you do have a few specs that almost every raid will have. The fact that you have 14 dps and that tanks usually don't provide much utility means you can bring most classes in those roles as long as you also have the few correct ones.

    Where it all breaks down is healing because there are only 4 healers and often the utility of each one is very important. In this patch there are two specs that make up about 2/3 of all parses on Sylvanas. Last patch, same (they traded spots though, Shammy was first last time). In Nyalotha, there were more paladins than any two other specs combined. It's been like this forever.

    So yes, you can bring a decent number of non-meta characters, but you also have to have the characters that make the fight work - like a dk with grip, warlock with gate, and most commonly, shaman with spirit link.

    You're going to find very few parses without a pally and a shaman healing - maybe you have a druid or a monk in the 3rd or 4th spot, but it's just gimping yourself not to bring a shaman for spirit link or a pally for dps + tank healing.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2021-12-22 at 01:54 AM.

  3. #743
    1 class vs 1 class = dog shit because you may get a healer VS a tank or something or 1 class vs 1 boss = dogshit because similarly the 1 class may be healer or whatever

    3 classes vs 3 classes = sightly less dog shit but still dogshit; PvP is crap in terms of metas (e.g. can't compete with healers as only dpses); or frost mage in all m+ WRs.

    10 classes = still not optimal because the game has 12 classes; so you effectively promote an objectively worse game; you will never win unless you ruin the game.

  4. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    Never said I was sat... because I never actually was, and I'm typically top DPS; also, I can tell you know ya'll know I'm right because you're getting so emotional about it, so you resort to insults rather than have a logical conversation. Triggered much? Anyways Relapses, you're right about most things, and can tilt me to your side usually, but you're flat out wrong about this. Concede.

    BLIZZ PLEASE BRING BACK 10M! (Relapses caught me)
    That was a generalized you, I didn't intend to imply I was talking about you specifically. I apologize that wasn't really clear with my response. That said, as I've said throughout this entire thread my opinion pivots strongly towards innovation instead of stagnation. Homogenization of classes is the opposite of what Blizzard should be doing, and they certainly shouldn't be doing it just so that a few people who prefer 10M raids can have their way.

  5. #745
    "Homogenization of classes" is shortcut to deleting the game itself. The easiest thing to do is to "homogenize the classes".

    Start a new game in 10 minutes and make 1 class; there: homogenization; the worst mobile apps are that.

  6. #746
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    That was a generalized you, I didn't intend to imply I was talking about you specifically. I apologize that wasn't really clear with my response. That said, as I've said throughout this entire thread my opinion pivots strongly towards innovation instead of stagnation. Homogenization of classes is the opposite of what Blizzard should be doing, and they certainly shouldn't be doing it just so that a few people who prefer 10M raids can have their way.
    I can agree with you on that, and thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that it wasn't personal. Also if the cost of a 10m is homogenization (which is the bane of all that is fun), then I'd rather just not have 10m

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    The original comment I made:

    It's not a question of being hard, it's more a question of Blizzard's capabilities. Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat. That's just the reality.

    I fail to understand how I "shifted the goal post" from a general comment like this. I simply elaborated on examples within the generalization that you apparently didn't consider.
    You are doing a Motte and bailey. Claiming that you can't play whatever you want without getting sat is INDEFENSIBLE, there is hard proof that you can play any spec and complete the content(which means the players on said spec were not sat). But when pressed you immediately retreat to something safe like "So you're suggesting that you can create a comp with whatever you want and get CE prior to nerfs / overgearing" which is a different claim but with enough overlap to to say thats what you mean. You original claim is wrong factually and if you had started with some of your later claims I wouldn't have bothered replying to you.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    You are doing a Motte and bailey. Claiming that you can't play whatever you want without getting sat is INDEFENSIBLE, there is hard proof that you can play any spec and complete the content(which means the players on said spec were not sat). But when pressed you immediately retreat to something safe like "So you're suggesting that you can create a comp with whatever you want and get CE prior to nerfs / overgearing" which is a different claim but with enough overlap to to say thats what you mean. You original claim is wrong factually and if you had started with some of your later claims I wouldn't have bothered replying to you.
    My point is factually correct, all you need to do is break down the logs you linked me by ilvl and you'll see I'm right. I don't know what a "Motte and bailey" is, but overgearing and nerfs are subcategories of my generalization that I used as examples so that you could come to an understanding of what I'm saying. You either misunderstood or you're just trying to pick a fight because you're bored. Give up bro, you're fighting a mute point.

  9. #749
    Nope, all they need is just money.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    My point is factually correct, all you need to do is break down the logs you linked me by ilvl and you'll see I'm right. I don't know what a "Motte and bailey" is, but overgearing and nerfs are subcategories of my generalization that I used as examples so that you could come to an understanding of what I'm saying. You either misunderstood or you're just trying to pick a fight because you're bored. Give up bro, you're fighting a mute point.
    Using a subcategory of your statement to qualify the entirety of your original statement is exactly the problem. Its the equivalent of you saying rectangles are squares. I respond with saying no they aren't but then you show me a 2x2 square and say this meets the qualification of a rectangle, which is true because a square is a rectangle but that doesn't mean all rectangles are squares. Ive shown you an example that doesn't work in your original statement and ill give you an even more specific

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...435&bracket=13

    Look this is the ilvl range WORLD FIRST guilds killed sylv at and it includes ret paladins, a feral druid, fury warrior, out and sub rogues etc... These are prog ilvl of WF guilds let alone 90% of other guilds that killed this boss. If I increased the range to what most guilds progged at you are gonna look even dumber. Just because you don't know what a certain fallacy is doesn't mean you aren't doing it btw. Your original statement is WRONG and you are trying to use sub categories to say its ok to make that statement which is not ok.

    Ok more obvious example that I hope you understand. Yes or no, are canines wild animals?

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Using a subcategory of your statement to qualify the entirety of your original statement is exactly the problem. Its the equivalent of you saying rectangles are squares. I respond with saying no they aren't but then you show me a 2x2 square and say this meets the qualification of a rectangle, which is true because a square is a rectangle but that doesn't mean all rectangles are squares. Ive shown you an example that doesn't work in your original statement and ill give you an even more specific

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...435&bracket=13

    Look this is the ilvl range WORLD FIRST guilds killed sylv at and it includes ret paladins, a feral druid, fury warrior, out and sub rogues etc... These are prog ilvl of WF guilds let alone 90% of other guilds that killed this boss. If I increased the range to what most guilds progged at you are gonna look even dumber. Just because you don't know what a certain fallacy is doesn't mean you aren't doing it btw. Your original statement is WRONG and you are trying to use sub categories to say its ok to make that statement which is not ok.

    Ok more obvious example that I hope you understand. Yes or no, are canines wild animals?
    You have not given me an example, you proved yourself wrong. Rectangles are squares, if I argued that squares are awesome, and then later said: "squares are awesome because they contain rectangles!" Then I am further elaborating on why squares are awesome. You are just proving my point even more.

    Along the lines of your link, can you not clearly see the disparity in damage between the Fury Warrior who did ~450 DPS and how far behind the Feral Druid also was in damage? THEY WERE CARRIED, which is not surprising in "World of Boostcraft"
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2021-12-22 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    You have not given me an example, you proved yourself wrong. Rectangles are squares, if I argued that squares are awesome, and then later said: "squares are awesome because they contain rectangles!" Then I am further elaborating on why squares are awesome. You are just proving my point even more.

    Along the lines of your link, can you not clearly see the disparity in damage between the Fury Warrior who did ~450 DPS and how far behind the Feral Druid also was in damage? THEY WERE CARRIED, which is not surprising in "World of Boostcraft"
    no no no you didn't argue an opinion. You stated "Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat". You aren't getting out of this hole you dug.

    Can people complete the content on any spec? Yes. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/28#boss=2435
    How does this interact with following statement "I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat"
    Well unless you can prove every person on that list of any 1 spec has been called a noob the statement is incorrect as they were not sat obviously.

    You continue to dodge my requests of you even though you constantly need help with definitions and statistics. So here we go again try answering these questions.

    What does overgeared mean?
    What are all the non meta specs?
    Are canines wild animals?

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    no no no you didn't argue an opinion. You stated "Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat". You aren't getting out of this hole you dug.

    Can people complete the content on any spec? Yes. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/28#boss=2435
    How does this interact with following statement "I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat"
    Well unless you can prove every person on that list of any 1 spec has been called a noob the statement is incorrect as they were not sat obviously.

    You continue to dodge my requests of you even though you constantly need help with definitions and statistics. So here we go again try answering these questions.

    What does overgeared mean?
    What are all the non meta specs?
    Are canines wild animals?
    1. Overgeared - Average item level of the group is equal to the average ilvl loot dropped by the raid encounters, which means you are "fully mythic geared", thus nerfing the content to the fullest extent. This is easy to achieve with the Great Vault rewarding top level loot + easy farm bosses, and since we're so far into this raid tier... well, pretty much everyone's main and their mom's are geared to the teeth.

    2. Non meta specs - Specs that are not commonly played because they lack the "burst" or "utility" to overcome encounters. A good example of this is when people watch top end guilds in the WF race and copy their tried and true tactics. Those that enter the WF race enter the raid with the max entry level ilvls at that point in time... which is technically the most difficult point in time for them, which is why they simply cannot bring specs that don't perform, and which also trickles down to every other serious guild that doesn't want to beat there head against the wall because their friend "Joey" likes to play Arcane Mage, Survival Hunter, or Feral Druid. Can those specs do some good damage? Sure, but do they contribute to the group's success? Nope. Now they need the rest of the raid to perform more burst OR AoE to counter the loss of damage by bringing a Feral Druid... which doesn't have an innervate or good spread AoE. Why bring Feral when you can just bring another boomy who does more ST AND AoE + an innervate (Just using Feral as an example)? Just sounds counterintuitive. Can you really argue that these thoughts don't cross the minds of every serious CE guild out there? I mean, you mentioned earlier that you were a tank, which good tanks are hard to find (I'm assuming you're an exceptional tank since you're in a CE guild that's been achieving CE for a while), but DPS and heals don't have the privilege of playing what they want without being sat because they decided they wouldn't swap to a spec that performs better. Which is literally not due to performance, and 100% to do with their choice of what spec they enjoy

    3. Hmm are canines wild animals? Not if they are domesticated?

    Can people complete the content on any spec? Yes. - no, unless they are carried or overgear the content.

    How does this interact with following statement "I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat" - This is common knowledge, something which you haven't fortunately encountered because you most likely play an outrageously geared tank that has gear from CE or plays with CE guildies who are willing to play with you

    Well unless you can prove every person on that list of any 1 spec has been called a noob the statement is incorrect as they were not sat obviously. - This literally makes no sense to me. Why does everyone have to be called a noob? I mean people being carried are obviously paying for it, so no one cares, but it doesnt change the fact that they were carried in the first place.

    no no no you didn't argue an opinion. You stated "Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat". You aren't getting out of this hole you dug. - This is a fact, and not an opinion. I don't need to dig myself out of a hole because it is common sense. Ever ask yourself why you have raid leaders? They literally are designated to create comps that are effective as well as other things. Maybe this is something else you've never had to deal with?
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2021-12-22 at 06:01 PM.

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    1. Overgeared - Average item level of the group is equal to the average ilvl loot dropped by the raid encounters, which means you are "fully mythic geared", thus nerfing the content to the fullest extent

    2. Non meta specs - Specs that are not commonly played because they lack the "burst" or "utility" to overcome encounters. A good example of this is when people watch top end guilds in the WF race and copy their tried and true tactics. Those that enter the WF race enter the raid with the max entry level ilvls at that point in time... which is technically the most difficult point in time for them, which is why they simply cannot bring specs that don't perform, and which also trickles down to every other serious guild that doesn't want to beat there head against the wall because their friend "Joey" likes to play Arcane Mage, Survival Hunter, or Feral Druid. Can those specs do some good damage? Sure, but do they contribute to the group's success? Nope*. Now they need the rest of the raid to perform more burst OR AoE to counter the loss of damage by bringing a Feral Druid... which doesn't have an innervate or good spread AoE. Why bring Feral when you can just bring another boomy who does more ST AND AoE + an innervate (Just using Feral as an example)? Just sounds counterintuitive. Can you really argue that these thoughts don't cross the minds of every serious CE guild out there? I mean, you mentioned earlier that you were a tank, which good tanks are hard to find (I'm assuming you're an exceptional tank since you're in a CE guild that's been achieving CE for a while), but DPS and heals don't have the privilege of playing what they want without being sat because they decided they wouldn't swap to a spec that performs better. Which is literally not due to performance, and 100% to do with their choice of what spec they enjoy

    3. Hmm are canines wild animals? Not if they are domesticated?
    1: Well good thing sylv drops 259 gear so that fight has never been overgeared.

    2: World first and 2nd guilds used 0 rogues on their kills of sylv but 3 and 4 did. Are rogues meta or not meta.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...isqt#boss=2435 from the world 4th kill of sylv played ass on the first kill and sub on the 2nd kill(still ilvl 247) which if any of these kills was he playing meta? one of them? none? both?

    Feral druid is the 2nd highest dps spec on sylv (2nd to balance). It brings different damage profiles and different cd sets (convoke vs frenzy). So there is reason to bring ferals obviously. Damage profiles vary on every dps in the game so you can extrapolate this to any spec. Hunters also bring no unique required utility or damage profile but are on the WF kills. While also not doing top ranged damage, why were they brought? Why are they still brought?

    World first ran no resto shaman but my guild did (killed boss with raid at 250ilvl well below sylvs drop and also below 252 which drops from the rest of the raid) but we had another priest on roster. Why did we bring the non meta class? Shouldn't he have been sat? We weren't overgeared and we had a more meta class available. Nothing about his healing cds were required, we found use for them but the boss could clearly have been killed with another priest instead.

    3: Yes or no question, much like the binary presented by your original statement. Unless of course you think both the following statements are true.
    I can play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat
    I can't play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat

    edit: Here I'll spoil my point for you in the name of saving time. By using subcategories(which you are doing) you could argue canines are or are not wild animals exclusively. Canines are wild animals because wolves are canines and wild animals. Canines are not wild animals because domesticated dogs are canines and not wild. You are are arguing canines(not being able to play what you want without being sat or called a noob) is exclusively wild or not by using specific examples that are subservient to the overall point. When the answer is Canines CAN be a wild a animal. Just like some one CAN be sat for their pick/class/spec but its doesn't mean they CAN'T complete things as any class or spec. Before you try to turn this around into people should always be able to play what they want without being sat.... no unless you think a raid of 20 holy priests should be a viable comp for a CE raid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    It's true that you can play anything, but most fights come with certain classes that provide extremely necessary utility so you do have a few specs that almost every raid will have. The fact that you have 14 dps and that tanks usually don't provide much utility means you can bring most classes in those roles as long as you also have the few correct ones.

    Where it all breaks down is healing because there are only 4 healers and often the utility of each one is very important. In this patch there are two specs that make up about 2/3 of all parses on Sylvanas. Last patch, same (they traded spots though, Shammy was first last time). In Nyalotha, there were more paladins than any two other specs combined. It's been like this forever.

    So yes, you can bring a decent number of non-meta characters, but you also have to have the characters that make the fight work - like a dk with grip, warlock with gate, and most commonly, shaman with spirit link.

    You're going to find very few parses without a pally and a shaman healing - maybe you have a druid or a monk in the 3rd or 4th spot, but it's just gimping yourself not to bring a shaman for spirit link or a pally for dps + tank healing.
    So you agree that you as an individual can play what you want, and complete all content without being called a noob or sat. thanks for the support.
    Last edited by Elbob; 2021-12-22 at 06:42 PM.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    1: Well good thing sylv drops 259 gear so that fight has never been overgeared.

    2: World first and 2nd guilds used 0 rogues on their kills of sylv but 3 and 4 did. Are rogues meta or not meta.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...isqt#boss=2435 from the world 4th kill of sylv played ass on the first kill and sub on the 2nd kill(still ilvl 247) which if any of these kills was he playing meta? one of them? none? both?

    Feral druid is the 2nd highest dps spec on sylv (2nd to balance). It brings different damage profiles and different cd sets (convoke vs frenzy). So there is reason to bring ferals obviously. Damage profiles vary on every dps in the game so you can extrapolate this to any spec. Hunters also bring no unique required utility or damage profile but are on the WF kills. While also not doing top ranged damage, why were they brought? Why are they still brought?

    World first ran no resto shaman but my guild did (killed boss with raid at 250ilvl well below sylvs drop and also below 252 which drops from the rest of the raid) but we had another priest on roster. Why did we bring the non meta class? Shouldn't he have been sat? We weren't overgeared and we had a more meta class available. Nothing about his healing cds were required, we found use for them but the boss could clearly have been killed with another priest instead.

    3: Yes or no question, much like the binary presented by your original statement. Unless of course you think both the following statements are true.
    I can play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat
    I can't play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat

    edit: Here I'll spoil my point for you in the name of saving time. By using subcategories(which you are doing) you could argue canines are or are not wild animals exclusively. Canines are wild animals because wolves are canines and wild animals. Canines are not wild animals because domesticated dogs are canines and not wild. You are are arguing canines(not being able to play what you want without being sat or called a noob) is exclusively wild or not by using specific examples that are subservient to the overall point. When the answer is Canines CAN be a wild a animal. Just like some one CAN be sat for their pick/class/spec but its doesn't mean they CAN'T complete things as any class or spec. Before you try to turn this around into people should always be able to play what they want without being sat.... no unless you think a raid of 20 holy priests should be a viable comp for a CE raid.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you agree that you as an individual can play what you want, and complete all content without being called a noob or sat. thanks for the support.
    You know it’s not as simple as that. Most end fights are made significantly easier if you have certain things in your comp. So if you have a guild full of people who just play whatever they want, it’s going to be much harder than if you have a few people who adjust to the meta (like say, bringing a dk for grip). But you can have a few people in the guild who don’t adjust - however if I were a raid leader in that guild I’d only accept a few core players like that while prioritizing players who were more flexible.

    Then for whatever reason, healer is in a different category where utility is so critical that it’s relatively rare to see non meta specs. You can get away with 1, but it’s rare to see two and almost never 3.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2021-12-22 at 07:30 PM.

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    You know it’s not as simple as that. Most end fights are made significantly easier if you have certain things in your comp. So if you have a guild full of people who just play whatever they want, it’s going to be much harder than if you have a few people who adjust to the meta (like say, bringing a dk for grip). But you can have a few people in the guild who don’t adjust - however if I were a raid leader in that guild I’d only accept a few core players like that while prioritizing players who were more flexible.

    Then for whatever reason, healer is in a different category where utility is so critical that it’s relatively rare to see non meta specs. You can get away with 1, but it’s rare to see two and almost never 3.
    Yes its not that simple, its just not what im discussing here. I'm here purely arguing against an incredibly untrue statement that says people can't play what they want to play. You can 100% get into a (mythic)raiding guild playing any spec you enjoy and the biggest wall is going to be skill/level of play. I hear you on class utility making certain classes required sometimes on 1 fight sometimes on every fight and disparity in healer usage in particular. We'd probably agree on 90% of things on those topics but they don't blanket prevent people from playing specs they want as a whole. Heck I can play the most meta tank out there but if the raid I want to go to doesn't need a tank, they aren't gonna take me right.

    If you start factoring in things like, whats the raids current comp, which players are weakest, which roles are weakest, what classes cheese the fight etc anyone playing anything could potentially be sat on a fight. Even on a fight like sylv I(and I assume most raids) would rather bring an extra warlock vs a moonkin that dies a bunch yea?

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes its not that simple, its just not what im discussing here. I'm here purely arguing against an incredibly untrue statement that says people can't play what they want to play. You can 100% get into a (mythic)raiding guild playing any spec you enjoy and the biggest wall is going to be skill/level of play. I hear you on class utility making certain classes required sometimes on 1 fight sometimes on every fight and disparity in healer usage in particular. We'd probably agree on 90% of things on those topics but they don't blanket prevent people from playing specs they want as a whole. Heck I can play the most meta tank out there but if the raid I want to go to doesn't need a tank, they aren't gonna take me right.

    If you start factoring in things like, whats the raids current comp, which players are weakest, which roles are weakest, what classes cheese the fight etc anyone playing anything could potentially be sat on a fight. Even on a fight like sylv I(and I assume most raids) would rather bring an extra warlock vs a moonkin that dies a bunch yea?
    You make no sense. You argue against my points and yet you feed into the meta. Why is it that you play a meta spec?

    \facepalm

    Are you literally telling me that if everyone is of the same skill level, there is no partiality towards meta specs? Seriously? The partiality leads to being sat or being called a noob!
    Last edited by Aedruid; 2021-12-22 at 10:05 PM.

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedruid View Post
    You make no sense. You argue against my points and yet you feed into the meta. Why is it that you play a meta spec?

    \facepalm

    Are you literally telling me that if everyone is of the same skill level, there is no partiality towards meta specs? Seriously? The partiality leads to being sat or being called a noob!
    not what im saying nor was that post @ you.

    "Other games do not have this problem. Just WoW. I should be able to play whatever I would like in WoW without being deemed a "noob" or being sat" this is your hole. Live in it or admit its wrong. People can play any spec and clear the content. I've never made the claim that certain classes aren't better then others or even implied it. I know you want an out but you arent getting one.

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes its not that simple, its just not what im discussing here. I'm here purely arguing against an incredibly untrue statement that says people can't play what they want to play. You can 100% get into a (mythic)raiding guild playing any spec you enjoy and the biggest wall is going to be skill/level of play. I hear you on class utility making certain classes required sometimes on 1 fight sometimes on every fight and disparity in healer usage in particular. We'd probably agree on 90% of things on those topics but they don't blanket prevent people from playing specs they want as a whole. Heck I can play the most meta tank out there but if the raid I want to go to doesn't need a tank, they aren't gonna take me right.

    If you start factoring in things like, whats the raids current comp, which players are weakest, which roles are weakest, what classes cheese the fight etc anyone playing anything could potentially be sat on a fight. Even on a fight like sylv I(and I assume most raids) would rather bring an extra warlock vs a moonkin that dies a bunch yea?
    Agreed. So to sum it up, you can play whatever you want, but some classes are way more desirable than others so it’s not always easy to play your chosen spec.

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