Would Blizzard ever institute support specs?

[Teriz]

So with the recent datamined info involving a possible Evoker 3rd spec, I felt that we should address the very real possibility that Blizzard could be introducing an actual support role into WoW, shaking up the Trinity and fundamentally changing how we play in groups.

In the actual Evoker 3rd spec thread, we’ve mostly rejected the notion of it possibly being a true support spec of some type. However, given the actual description of the black Dragonflight spec such a possibility can’t be ignored.

For those who don’t know, there’s an Evoker-only quest in the PTR for 10.1 that says “New Specialization remembered”. In the quest, Emberthal and Ebyssian work with the player to free and subdue Adamanthia. Presumably, this action leads to the restoration of Black Dragon essence to Dracthyr trapped within her lair, and their freedom. This in turn restores Emberthal to the leader of the Adamant Vigil. It’s important to note that Evokers are currently lacking a black dragon-based spec.

With that said, it’s the nature of the black Dragonflight abilities that are interesting. A voice line from Neltharion states that Emberthal and her weryn “augmented others with his (black dragon) power” in addition, the edict of the Adamant Vigil states that the weryn “weakened enemies and strengthened allies”.

The thread on the other forum is still struggling to figure out what spec matches this description, but what if the most obvious spec is the answer? What if Blizzard is actually going to create a new role in WoW?

So how would they do it? I think what they could do is introduce the spec in 10.1.7, but not make it playable until the end of the expansion after the next expansion is announced. They could even open up the support role in the final raid tier to give everyone a chance to test the new role via the Evoker. Then in 11.0 they introduce 4-5 more support specs in other S/ Vr 51 classes. More than likely the classes that also have access to bloodlust/heroism; Shaman, Hunter, and Mages.

Again, I don’t think is going to happen, but it’s definitely a possibility if Blizzard wants to shake up their game.

[czarek]

First we still dont know its gonna happen i mean the 3rd spec. BUT if yes. Next question is. Its gonna be a brand new specialization overall or just new one for evoker. Would be nice twist to add brand new specialization to the table. New setup for dungeons ? Like 1 tank 1 healer 1 support 2 dps ? Or just add support as extra slot ? So many "?" with no real clue.

[Teriz]

First we still dont know its gonna happen i mean the 3rd spec. BUT if yes. Next question is. Its gonna be a brand new specialization overall or just new one for evoker. Would be nice twist to add brand new specialization to the table. New setup for dungeons ? Like 1 tank 1 healer 1 support 2 dps ? Or just add support as extra slot ? So many "?" with no real clue.

Definitely still up in the air if Evokers are even getting a 3rd spec. That said, over in the other thread a big source of contention is what type of spec this would be, because none of us are accepting the reality that it could very well be a bard-style spec. If we accept that this is in fact a new type of role, then yeah that's a pretty big shake-up. However, if Blizz views it as something worth investing in because maybe they feel the old trinity is stale and needs changing, maybe they're willing to do it?

As for the set up, I think they'll expand it to 6 for dungeons by adding 1 additional slot, and add 2 support slots for raiding to mirror the number of tanks. They'll probably make Evokers the only supports for the remainder of Dragonflight, (forcing players to try the new class and the new role) and then expand the role to a few other classes in 11.0. Much the same way they did allied races between Legion and BFA.

[Jujudrood]

Come on, guys, a full "support" spec just won't work for WoW.
If it can't damage, heal, or tank, it will either a) make groups weaker, taking up a spot of a real DPS, or b) make groups so strong we have 'totem bitch' all over again.
It's simple math that doesn't jive here.
Plus, adding a new spec after DF is over would be weird, unless Dracthyr are also the focus of the next expansion, so it would have to be in this one, which would also feel weird because the entire power spectrum would need rebalanced top-down.
That's a lot of work just to add a spec that can't dps, heal, or tank effectively on its own.

[Teriz]

Come on, guys, a full "support" spec just won't work for WoW.
If it can't damage, heal, or tank, it will either a) make groups weaker, taking up a spot of a real DPS, or b) make groups so strong we have 'totem bitch' all over again.
It's simple math that doesn't jive here.
Plus, adding a new spec after DF is over would be weird, unless Dracthyr are also the focus of the next expansion, so it would have to be in this one, which would also feel weird because the entire power spectrum would need rebalanced top-down.
That's a lot of work just to add a spec that can't dps, heal, or tank effectively on its own.

No, once again you expand the size of groups and raids to accommodate the new role, so you'll have the same number of DPS, Heal, and Tanks, you'll just add support.

And yeah, if you don't have a support, it'll make the groups weaker, and perhaps unviable, just like missing any role would.

You would add the Evoker support spec during the final raid tier of Dragonflight, after the next expansion is announced along with the future support specs. The Evoker support spec would be a "preview" of sorts for the future group dynamic coming next expansion. Again, this is analogous with what they did with Allied Races between Legion and BFA. However, you probably wouldn't have to pre-order to access the new Evoker spec.

The benefits of doing this is to change group dynamics, make raid fights more complex, open up classes to more role possibilities, make future classes more interesting, and give players another avenue to potentially raid in if the current roles aren't interesting to them. Again, I can see Blizzard looking at this as an investment to strengthen their game, because there are a lot of RPG players out there who enjoy support roles in other games.

[melzas]

If something like new role vwr happened in wow, it wouldnt be in a content patch but a big feature of expansion. Some people really need to stop being delusional...

[Teriz]

If something like new role vwr happened in wow, it wouldnt be in a content patch but a big feature of expansion. Some people really need to stop being delusional...

You don't see a scenario where Blizzard announced the next expansion this fall and says that one of the new features is support roles, shows off the classes that can be support, and then says you can play the new support role via the new Evoker 3rd spec in patch 10.2?

I can totally see that happening.

[Myradin]

You don't see a scenario where Blizzard announced the next expansion this fall and says that one of the new features is support roles, shows off the classes that can be support, and then says you can play the new support role via the new Evoker 3rd spec in patch 10.2?

I can totally see that happening.

No I really can't, because releasing a role that only 1 class can do is a disaster.

That means every group has to have a support evoker, which will be more rare than tanks or healers. It'll inflate queue times and make evokers forced by their guilds to play the new mandatory role that only one class can do.

Also, being only one, it'll either suck or be OP, and be a disruptive force to the point where the player base will sour even more on the support idea, making supports an unwanted feature when 11.0 comes out.

Furthermore, adding a new mandatory role just creates a new tank/healer problem. DPS aren't going to flock to a spec that deals less damage but casts some nebulous buffs, support players are primarily going to come from the Tank/Healer. If dps wanted to help people, they'd play the 2 roles that already do.

Allied races is not a good comparison as allied races are almost entirely cosmetic (and were still a garbage idea).

[Jujudrood]

No, once again you expand the size of groups and raids to accommodate the new role, so you'll have the same number of DPS, Heal, and Tanks, you'll just add support.

And yeah, if you don't have a support, it'll make the groups weaker, and perhaps unviable, just like missing any role would.

You would add the Evoker support spec during the final raid tier of Dragonflight, after the next expansion is announced along with the future support specs. The Evoker support spec would be a "preview" of sorts for the future group dynamic coming next expansion. Again, this is analogous with what they did with Allied Races between Legion and BFA. However, you probably wouldn't have to pre-order to access the new Evoker spec.

The benefits of doing this is to change group dynamics, make raid fights more complex, open up classes to more role possibilities, make future classes more interesting, and give players another avenue to potentially raid in if the current roles aren't interesting to them. Again, I can see Blizzard looking at this as an investment to strengthen their game, because there are a lot of RPG players out there who enjoy support roles in other games.

The support role in wow is called "healer".
You support the group by increasing their HP, remove debuffs, do a little damage, but otherwise you allow the rest of the group to continue to fight.
If Evoker gets a new spec, it could be a healer, preferably something akin to Disc where damage is your focus and healing/shielding/buffing/debuffing is what happens when you do it.

Tanks are also "support" in that they keep the focus on them, allowing the healers to keep doing their support role while DPS nuke things.
Evoker could also get a tank spec that has a series of abilities that buff them/their friends, debuff the enemies, all that jazz in a tanking structure, so you keep focus but you also support everyone around you.

The key is that it fits an existing role where balance already exists and structures support it.
See, you look at Support as basically a new mandatory role, but support in and of itself cannot stand on its own.
How would you play one solo? You probably wouldn't because your damage, healing, and tankability would be trash.
Healers and tanks can pay solo today because they can do just enough damage to kill things but also heal themselves to stay alive.
If support is just "make others better", then you are SOL in a fair bit of wow content, meaning your only viable role is in a dungeon that already struggles to fill the queue with tanks and healers, adding one more niche to the equation and potentially stretching out queue times even more, or in raid where you are either penalized from or incentivized for bringing your totem bitch.

It just doesn't fit a game like WoW that has variable group sizes and such.
If every piece of content had a fixed size of 5 just like dungeons (or 6, in your proposal), balancing is much easier around each role, but adding in flexible sizes causes major math problems.

[Teriz]

No I really can't, because releasing a role that only 1 class can do is a disaster.

That means every group has to have a support evoker, which will be more rare than tanks or healers. It'll inflate queue times and make evokers forced by their guilds to play the new mandatory role that only one class can do.

Also, being only one, it'll either suck or be OP, and be a disruptive force to the point where the player base will sour even more on the support idea, making supports an unwanted feature when 11.0 comes out.

Then make it optional. Have one type of raid for the new support spec and one type of raid standard. Offer incentives for players to try the new support based raids. Remove that option when we hit 11.0.

Furthermore, adding a new mandatory role just creates a new tank/healer problem. DPS aren't going to flock to a spec that deals less damage but casts some nebulous buffs, support players are primarily going to come from the Tank/Healer. If dps wanted to help people, they'd play the 2 roles that already do.

Allied races is not a good comparison as allied races are almost entirely cosmetic (and were still a garbage idea).

I think DPS players would be willing to try it if Blizzard offers support specs to previous pure DPS classes like Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, and Rogues.

- - - Updated - - -

The support role in wow is called "healer".
You support the group by increasing their HP, remove debuffs, do a little damage, but otherwise you allow the rest of the group to continue to fight.
If Evoker gets a new spec, it could be a healer, preferably something akin to Disc where damage is your focus and healing/shielding/buffing/debuffing is what happens when you do it.

Tanks are also "support" in that they keep the focus on them, allowing the healers to keep doing their support role while DPS nuke things.
Evoker could also get a tank spec that has a series of abilities that buff them/their friends, debuff the enemies, all that jazz in a tanking structure, so you keep focus but you also support everyone around you.

Yeah, in the Evoker 3rd spec thread, most believe its going to be a standard tank, DPS, or Healer with some support abilities. My argument here is what if its an actual support spec and a harbinger for Blizzard's plan to expand the trinity?

The key is that it fits an existing role where balance already exists and structures support it.
See, you look at Support as basically a new mandatory role, but support in and of itself cannot stand on its own.
How would you play one solo? You probably wouldn't because your damage, healing, and tankability would be trash.

Support in other games still have offensive abilities, and their buffs also effect themselves, so they should still be able to solo. Also they can always change to a DPS spec to level.

Healers and tanks can pay solo today because they can do just enough damage to kill things but also heal themselves to stay alive.
If support is just "make others better", then you are SOL in a fair bit of wow content, meaning your only viable role is in a dungeon that already struggles to fill the queue with tanks and healers, adding one more niche to the equation and potentially stretching out queue times even more, or in raid where you are either penalized from or incentivized for bringing your totem bitch.

It just doesn't fit a game like WoW that has variable group sizes and such.
If every piece of content had a fixed size of 5 just like dungeons (or 6, in your proposal), balancing is much easier around each role, but adding in flexible sizes causes major math problems.

It wouldn't be flex. 6 would be the new fixed size for dungeons, and they would be balanced around that.

[Jujudrood]

Yeah, in the Evoker 3rd spec thread, most believe its going to be a standard tank, DPS, or Healer with some support abilities. My argument here is what if its an actual support spec and a harbinger for Blizzard's plan to expand the trinity?

Support in other games still have offensive abilities, and their buffs also effect themselves, so they should still be able to solo. Also they can always change to a DPS spec to level.

It wouldn't be flex. 6 would be the new fixed size for dungeons, and they would be balanced around that.

That's the thing; if it's an actual support spec, it causes a lot change for little gain.
I don't feel like that would be a great direction, shaking up the paradigm simply because.
Other games pull it off, but they were designed around it.
WoW doesn't really have a full on support model within the trinity and to change the trinity is too large a thing in a game this old.

As for dungeons, they would be 6, but raids would be 10-30, pvp would be 2/3/5/10, etc.
That kind of balance, having a class that by itself is ineffective at all 3 roles but makes others better, it just doesn't fit.
You would never see them in 2s, 3, or 5s in PVP unless they have god level debuff/cc (which they would need since they don't damage or heal effectively as others), then they would be all over.
Raids would either be "nice to have" or "absolutely mandatory, but only one" unless all their abilities only affect x players, then you just say "well, I need one support per x players", making building a raid team that much more complex.

Your basis of argument is that what if they added support and moved forward with a quad structure, and my response is that it feels like it would be far too much work to update and continually balance for not a whole lot of gain.

[Teriz]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/augment...-evoker-332918

Well, it appears the answer is yes. I fully expect more specs like Augmentation in the future.

So moving forward, what effect will this have on the game?

[Triceron]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/augment...-evoker-332918

Well, it appears the answer is yes. I fully expect more specs like Augmentation in the future.

So moving forward, what effect will this have on the game?

Gonna sound like a contrarian, but just want to be clear that this still isn't a support spec. It's a DPS spec with support abilities and support built int its mechanics. The nuance is important because of how it all fits into the Holy Trinity, and we're not talking about a 4th role just yet (which still could happen in the future)


As for what effect it will have on the game, I think it opens the potential for all roles having more varied styles of gameplay opened up. It'll be a double edged sword, but far better than the rigid, stagnant systems we have today. The meta really should be shaken up at its core.

[Aleksej89]

I would love a 4th role - some games had a "controller" 4th role, whose purpose was to affect friendlies and enemies in such a way to be a force multiplier of some sort.

Personally its my favorite playstyle and it would be great if most pure dps classes got a 4th spec that is akin to that.

[Teriz]

Gonna sound like a contrarian, but just want to be clear that this still isn't a support spec. It's a DPS spec with support abilities and support built int its mechanics. The nuance is important because of how it all fits into the Holy Trinity, and we're not talking about a 4th role just yet (which still could happen in the future)

TBF, Blizzard is calling it a support spec in their roadmap;



Which makes me wonder if the DPS label is temporary.

As for what effect it will have on the game, I think it opens the potential for all roles having more varied styles of gameplay opened up. It'll be a double edged sword, but far better than the rigid, stagnant systems we have today. The meta really should be shaken up at its core.

I largely agree. I think this opens up the possibility for more varied specs in the future. Possibly a DH support spec, or Shaman getting a 4th support spec. Additionally I wonder if a Tinker class for could have a spec like this instead of standard DPS or Healing.

[exochaft]

I largely agree. I think this opens up the possibility for more varied specs in the future. Possibly a DH support spec, or Shaman getting a 4th support spec. Additionally I wonder if a Tinker class for could have a spec like this instead of standard DPS or Healing.

I think the biggest obstacle to opening up the meta and expanding roles is going to be the players themselves. If one gets down to it, WoW has historically had problems when it came to classes/specs that ventured into the gray areas, even if it was just slightly.

The concept of hybrid classes/specs was a thing back in the day, and with the classic versions of WoW the sentiment hasn't really changed much as to those classes/specs (although it's probably better due to the audience to some degree). Even in the best of times for such classes/specs where you could 'switch roles' midfight (like with druid in MoP), there's always been skepticism and sometimes envy from the the players themselves. Heck, just spells like PI and Focus Magic have historically had issues surrounding them, and they're just one buff you can apply. Or even things like raid buffs/debuffs, especially when only one class could bring them. I would not be surprised that a support spec being introduced now will likely run into similar issues.

What do I personally think? Blizz should just go ahead with it regardless, but they should also strive to undo all the damage and conditioning they've done to the players over time as that's the cause of most pushback they'll receive. It'd be no small feat, as the way Blizz tunes and designs the game pushes many players into caring about things that make accepting support roles difficult if there's no clear metric to determine whether you're doing well or not. It'll be especially hard if the support the spec provides is nebulous in nature, instead of a straight-up damage number that can be easily extracted from a combat log. This is why I ultimately think Blizz is going to treat the incoming spec as a DPS spec with some minor benefits to those around you, as anything more would be a nightmare to balance... although if they just eased up on how tight they feel they need to balance the game, that would save them a lot of pain and tears. Heck, I can already imagine how much of a pain just maintaining their balance standards will be just from a raid vs M+ vs PvP standpoint, let alone how their interactions play out with other classes/specs on an individual level.