Bear CTC

[Deleted]

Thx for all the answers. I know that i could never reach CTC , but i was wondering , if 50% would be possible.

So 101,2 / 2 = 50,6

50,6 - 6,6miss (I'm NE) = 44%

Do you think 44% passiv-Dodge is possible with T13? Atm I have an Item-Level of ~375 and I'm gemming Agi with 1 Agi and 1 Stamina Trinket, which makes me sitting around 41,90% completly Raidbuffed.

I am at 45,021% dodge at the moment. So yeah, I believe in T13 it will be quite possible.

[traen]

Played around a bit in Rawr... The highest avoidance possible requires you to go with brawler's trophy/fluid death trinkets, put 20agi+20dodge in all red sockets and 40dodge in the rest, go with rhyo helm and the 391 upgraded polearm, and reforge every highest secondary stat on every item to dodge. That way you can get up to 2700 dodge rating, at the cost of a lot of mastery, agility, armor and such. Total avoidance post-DR would be ~56% (67% pre-DR).

We had such numbers(and even more) in Wotlk after -20% dodge debuf removal. Nothing special. It means that you was not even close to immortal even with 60% dodge. Druids took a lot of spike damage from hard-hitting bosses like sindragosa or lich kings adds and in most cases it was better to go for stamina.

There is no such thing as "dk/druid problem". Druids are just underbuffed.
Do you remember how OP druids were when mastery was just implemented? We absorbed 60+% of incoming damage! 25k absorbs on 3 hits out of 4. With average hit from end bosses something like 50k.
Its not hard to make druids more reliable - just buff mastery to be 30% more effective and druid tanks will be the most happy tanks in the whole world.

[Deleted]

"Overpowered" does not equal "happy", and I would love to see what gives you the impression that bears are weak.

[traen]

"Overpowered" does not equal "happy",

Works for me

and I would love to see what gives you the impression that bears are weak.

Not weak. Decent.
Actually with all the bis gear druid will take almost the same damage as paladin for example.
But I don't really care about overgearing the content. I care about first month of raiding in new instance.

And now you will see the difference. Bears and DKs will take a lot more damage than paladin and warrior tanks, and, what is more important, bears and DKs will take more damage per hit, than paladin tanks. Its all about spike damage you get. If you can't survive 2 boss hits + aoe, there is good chance that you will die. And healers will waste a lot of mana overhealing you.

Thats basically what blizzard is talking about. Spike damage is bad. It stresses your healers. They say "druid tank... pfff.. I don't like druid tanks, give me paladin".

The difference overall is not so big. Its something like 5-7% more physical damage taken in average if you tank heroic firelands as bear in 372 gear.
There will be no difference at all (and maybe druid will even take less damage) if you tank it in full 391-397 gear.
But when you will move to dragonsoul heroic in your shity 391 gear, you will notice the difference.

I suggest you to make some simulations to understand what am I talking about.

[Deleted]

Played around a bit in Rawr... The highest avoidance possible requires you to go with brawler's trophy/fluid death trinkets, put 20agi+20dodge in all red sockets and 40dodge in the rest, go with rhyo helm and the 391 upgraded polearm, and reforge every highest secondary stat on every item to dodge. That way you can get up to 2700 dodge rating, at the cost of a lot of mastery, agility, armor and such. Total avoidance post-DR would be ~56% (67% pre-DR).

Well I thought about reaching the 51,2% ( Thanks for the correcting my number ) with just maxing Agi, after enough Stamina to survive 2 Hits + 1 Special. I didn't want to stack dodge-rating.

[exochaft]

There is no such thing as "dk/druid problem". Druids are just underbuffed.
Do you remember how OP druids were when mastery was just implemented? We absorbed 60+% of incoming damage! 25k absorbs on 3 hits out of 4. With average hit from end bosses something like 50k.
Its not hard to make druids more reliable - just buff mastery to be 30% more effective and druid tanks will be the most happy tanks in the whole world.

Well, the nerf was two-fold: we lost the ability to proc SD with Lacerate bleed tick crits and the scaling of mastery for SD was reduced. It wasn't really what one or the other did that made us OP, it was the combination of the two (albiet, it was a staggered nerf, but Blizz also admitted they couldn't model bear tanking very well and scaled all the other tanks off of bear tanks due to lacking that model out of ease). Now how does this relate to CTC?

At the beginning of this expansion, Blizz was trying to avoid mitigation levels they wanted for 4.3. Simply put, they didn't want warriors/paladins pushing all normal hits off the combat table, and they didn't want druids/DKs averaged mitigation in a fight to be the equivalent of the other classes pushing normal hits off the combat table. Warriors and paladins were easy at first, just scale back mastery... bear tanks, though, were kind of a mystery, so they reduced the proc chance of bear shields and how much they absorbed at the same time. However, since the beta, I know there were quite a few people (myself included) that saw the problem ahead: shield tanks were going to severely out-scale druid tanks because they would be able to push normal hits off the combat table before 4.3. Blizz did reduce/change mastery for shield tanks to try to reduce this problem, but we all know that warriors/paladins can push off normal hits easily right now.

So where does this put bears? For 4.3, in order for bears to start catching up, we'd likely have to see an increase to the amount SD absorbs or a more reliable method to proc SD (aka, a return to something similar to the state of bears on the beta for Cataclysm). Now enters the 2-piece set bonus for feral druids: Mangle has a 100% to proc SD if Pulverize is up. I'm sure people would wonder why this change would be baked into a tier bonus instead of a talent tree or base ability change, and it still falls back on druid tank mitigation is really RNG and, similar to DK tanks in some fashion, we could crit every attack and not absorb an incoming attack because our mitigation is left to chance. It's easier to test something that might be baseline for bears in the future with tier set bonuses (this has been done in the past, actually). Will this set bonus be enough? We'll see, at least it does address one problem with bear mitigation that shield tanks really don't have to worry about too often: RNG.

The difference overall is not so big. Its something like 5-7% more physical damage taken in average if you tank heroic firelands as bear in 372 gear.
There will be no difference at all (and maybe druid will even take less damage) if you tank it in full 391-397 gear.
But when you will move to dragonsoul heroic in your shity 391 gear, you will notice the difference.

I suggest you to make some simulations to understand what am I talking about.

I agree with what you're saying, traen. To build upon what you've said, in order to get to the point where your tanks are geared to taking the same amount of damage, you actually have to clear the content. There is quite a bit of irony, especially if you're pushing content as hard as you can, that players must be consoled that you'll be balanced after you have everything on farm... but until then, you'll be subject to disparity. Will this make a difference for cutting-edge guilds? Yes and no, either they'll have the skill to make up for the differences or they'll have the numbers to make class substitutions to put in the best class. Will this make a difference for the larger majority of the WoW population? Absolutely.

When you can't rely on skill to carry you through new content, many people fall back on classes. Blizz would like us to not have to worry about classes (*cough* bring the player, not the class *cough*), but in reality this generally will not happen. The best Blizz can do is try to bring classes more in line with each other so the differences aren't so great. I'll empathize with Blizz that this task is not an easy one, but there are many times where they've dug their own graves along the way.

[Arielle]

FYI our armor scaling + Passive DR makes us more than fine for 4.3.