World of Warcraft - Class Talent Systems Panel

[Ogemaniac]

This talent system is going to need a lot of work. Looking at my main class/spec (PvE resto druid), I find that two of the six choices are obvious and two of the six choices are absolutely irrelevant, as none of the talents would meaningfully impact PvE. The two tiers of choices that are interesting would be great if the three options were truly balanced numerically. Can Blizzard find six sets of three balanced choices for 11 classes? We will see.

The other problem I see is that talents for hybrid classes, particularly for the four-tree druids, are going to get insanely complicated at times, as they have to throw a bone to each spec. Some druid talents already fill up the entire text box and don't even say what they will do for all four specs!

[lyxx]

Let me copy/paste post froum US forum regarding paladyn talents and ret particulary in new expansion : evel 15 Tier: Holy - Awesome, i get to choose LAotL, PoJ, or Speed of light, I wonder which I will take the most. Ret - Wait, I have to choose between PoJ and LA now? Fine, I'll take Long Arm and guess you can consider PoJ as a nerf. Didn't want that speed increase anyways. Level 30 tier: Holy - Awesome, I get to choose between a stun, a cc, or snare. Well my teammate has a snare, so its between a CC and stun, which do you think I can use to get the better results? Ret - Wait, I have to choose between my stun, CC, and snare? Didn't I have 2/3 of these things before? And was asking for the 3rd to be viable, now you want me to go to just one?! Okay, i want a stun, guess I'll again rely on that teammate for a snare, fun fun!, and i'll lose out on my CC, that's fine I didn't want that anyways. Level 45 tier: Holy - Awesome, do i want blessed light or sacred shield? I roll with Blessed light now and I like it, guess I'll keep that. SS, although good, isn't active all the time and I can get more healing out of blessed light. Ret - Okay, obvious choice, I'll take Sacred Shield please... but wait, I lost PoJ's holy power generation, so that Blessed Light talent just became more important to me. Design play? Not really, because again, Ret is 'losing' something here. Holy had a choice, do you want to stay the same with blessed light or mix it up, ret just lost extra holy power generation. It's fine holy power isn't slow to generate i didn't want that extra boost anyways. level 60 tier: Holy - Do i want selfless Healer, eternal glory or holy shield. A shield would be nice, but I got LoD and WoG to use my holy power on i dont need a 3rd heal. Selfless healer, 1 FoL every 16 seconds? kek. Guess that just leaves Eternal Glory, sweet deal. Ret - Eternal Glory, no question, with keeping inquistion up, using holy power on TV, losing Divine purpose and Zealotry (maybe) it's a no brainer! But wait that means I lost selfless healer, my heals no longer crit like a lay on hands. crap, that's fine I like RNG and didn't need to heal my teammates anyways. level 75 tier: Holy - AoE freedom, Acts of sacirfice, or clemency. Those are three spells I didn't have before, can I go wrong with which ever i choose? Ret - Prep or an AoE HoF?! awesome, oh well wait, I can no longer remove roots on me, I have to get a stun to get a kill so I have no snare, and Long Arm of the Law is still questionable at best, guess I'll just keep the same old acts of sacrifice, yay! level 90 tier: Holy - Holy Avenger (Zealotry), Sanctified Wrath, or Divine Purpose. Holy cow! these are 3 spells I've never had before, how can I go wrong? No matter what new shinnies! Ret - Okay, do I go with Zealotry, Avenging Wrath / hammer of wrath combo, or Divine Purpose. Okay lets think about this, Divine Purpose is good, but RNG so meh. Sanctified Wrath is good, but is dispelable, holy avenger is a better zealotry so lets go with Holy Avenger. Oh crap, I just lost out on 2 talents I originally had, not only is that going to make my combat system more boring, but i lose out on 2 talents in a way. Again this is a very rough look into, and you have no clue what beta will bring, but from a first glace, Ret got the short end of the stick here. It was just bad examples on Blizzard's part. This looks incredibly boring for Ret because it was basically "half" of what Ret is now, if you'd ask a prot or holy paladin, they would probably give you a much better response.

[Deadanon]

I agree with many that these talent changes are more suited for PVP players than PVE. Thats now what majority of WOW players are after. And it will hurt the game. Once more. Blizzard need to cut the core between PVP and PVE. They are not and when more than half of the talent tree is focused for PVP - and some talent tiers have zero intresting or effective role for certain specs of the class. The 6 talents you pick must all be EXTRA important and usefull for every spec and role - both for PVP and PVE. Its far from that atm. Huge amount of work is needed in these. But ye... they are dumbing the game down even more than ever.

[Nevermorerogue]

SHADOWSTEP and PREP are in same LINE ??? U serious ???? COMON that's suck

[Deleted]

Just by name alone I assume it halves the cool down on charge.

You can use charge twice before its cd goes off.

[Deleted]

Gg blizzard dumping down the game for the kids just cause they are too lazy too google specs.And that's where i leave this game hopefully bioware devs will be smarter.

Making them more complex is dumbing down ? before you picked a spec and you picked certain talents, there was no choice, no difficulty, all those things in your talent tree might as well have been passive, and now when choose your spec you WILL GET ALL THE STUFF that used to be in the old talent tree passively PLUS now you have to actually make some decisions about which 6 of the 18 EXTRA abilities you want on top of everything you used to have.

The only REAL talents you could put some thought into in the old trees was the 2 or 3 leftover points at the end of your spec that youd use to choose between 3 useless talents. now you get 6 points to choose between 18 awesome talents, it wounds amazing.


Fuck me you all have the comprehension of a 5 year old.

[Aerion]

Gg blizzard dumping down the game for the kids just cause they are too lazy too google specs.And that's where i leave this game hopefully bioware devs will be smarter.

When was the last time you didn't play a mandatory spec? First time we are truly close of getting rid of the "i-must-take-this" -talents and actually be able to choose talents depending on the encounter (Do I need more utility? Do I need more certain kind of defensive approach? Does my pet have higher up-time on boss then me so I should decide to boost it instead of myself?).

In PvP this is more of a revolution than ever. Consider the present situation where choice is very limited and you can only go few different ways in PvP when it comes to talents (you are forced to choose 99% of your talents). Now you actually have 3*3*3*3*3*3 (=729) different combinations / person that you can run against an opponent without them having any information (former mandatory talents) what you are going to run on any given game.

[Ðam]

New talent system looks awesome Looking forward to seeing a fellow dps druid pull aggro and cast "Displacer Beast" and ending up in the middle of a fireand whoever said hunters was ignored in this x-pac what about the new Morph trap.. come on that sound too cool :P

[Second]

I see simplification on Blizzard part (making talent trees), when going to 100+ level, but i see that as laziness. This wont change cookie-cutter builds, its the mentality set by EJ and lack of creativity/? of WoW players. Every noob who cant even dps/tank/heal properly should never go to such page, as this +0,01223 dps gain on talent A over talent B in fight longer then 4:34 wont ever happen to them. First your fun, then min-maxing, i dont see this new talent trees deliver ...

[Deepone]

I couldn't help but think, while watching day 1, how influenced by Rift WoW has become. Obviously, one of the new battlegrounds is a direct duplicate of The Black Garden in Rift (every mechanic is identical... there's not even an attempt to modify it except in terms of flavor). But the talent system goes the other way. Obviously, the talent system in Rift can't be duplicated in WoW because WoW has too many base classes. If you gave each class in WoW 9 talent trees and let everyone go all the way to the 51-point talent in two trees, there would be no way to even begin class balance. So WoW took the idea of allowing specs to hybridize and simplified the talent trees while allowing for that. I like it, and I think this is the way games are supposed to learn from each other. The only down side is that WoW continues to be a completely different game every expansion, and I'm no longer 100% certain I want to learn yet another WoW variant this time around... we shall see.

---------- Post added 2011-10-22 at 03:47 PM ----------

I see simplification on Blizzard part (making talent trees), when going to 100+ level, but i see that as laziness. This wont change cookie-cutter builds, its the mentality set by EJ and lack of creativity/? of WoW players. Every noob who cant even dps/tank/heal properly should never go to such page, as this +0,01223 dps gain on talent A over talent B in fight longer then 4:34 wont ever happen to them. First your fun, then min-maxing, i dont see this new talent trees deliver ...

It's not changing cookie cutter builds so much as baking them in. The "build" you get no choice in. Your min/max decisions have all been made (or that's the idea; I saw one or two talents that might be problematic, but only one or two). Instead of choosing the min/max, core rotation items, you only choose the utility and playstyle items. Down side: there's no choice in the core talents anymore, other than to choose a spec. Up side: you don't need Wowpopular and Wowhead to tell you how to build a spec anymore because you can't. I'm in wait-and-see mode. MoP is not baked yet, and a LOT will change.

---------- Post added 2011-10-22 at 03:52 PM ----------

Is anyone else less than thrilled at the idea of having only 6 talents?

You have a lot more than 6 talents. You have 6 choices. You never really had more than 6 choices (zero for some specs), so it could be argued that you actually have more choice, now. What they've taken away is a lot of button-pressing to select those 0-6 talents. The success of this hinges on Blizzard being able to deliver on the promise that the new talents will be so utility-oriented that choosing one over the other at each rank won't realistically be min-maxable for the general case (though it obviously will be on a per-fight basis in PvE).

[Becvar]

What is 'Double Time'? The warrior talent they are talking about? Also shadowstep as assasination sounds amazing.

It allows you to charge twice before incurring the cooldown. So the cooldown is still 20 sec.

---------- Post added 2011-10-22 at 02:29 PM ----------

So i can pick 6 talents total (at lvl 90) and all of them will be in the same tree (there won't be any trees actually).

What do you think, how will they solve hybrid class talents? Judging from this pic: http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...tober/pp76.jpg if you want to be tank, you really dont have much of a choice.

Well, you still choose your specialization and get in the field training at the appropriate levels for class and role-specific abilities, but now you could, if you want, have Bladestorm as a tank.

[Karnige]

love this it's pretty unique

[vitabis]

the new expansions+ talent system change+ resilience pvp change+ extra pvp battlegrounds- panda's really? -_- - monk? => hahahahahaI'll try the new expansion probably but....hahahahaha....seriously, monks and panda's? hahahaha....and i know no one hahahah forces me to play, but just as you i'm entitled hahaahahah to an opinion after this announcement hahahahaha panda's ....

[Juggêernaut]

This is how rift is.

[jayremy]

The completly changed the talent trees and everyone had to learn how to play their class over in Cataclysm. Well, now you get to learn it all over AGAIN. This is how they make their expansion's NEW........ feeling like.

While I would say this true, I also think Blizzard is doing something better and legit this time. When they first announced how they were dealing with the talent systems in Cataclysm I was disappointed when I first saw their examples, I pretty much was disappointed with Cataclysm via mainly but not limited to class/role/spec changes before it even came out.

I look at MoP's model for class design and so on, now this looks spot on, I would give some thought into coming back into WoW now that there are some designs that in my mind I can finally say "hell yeah" about.

Thing is though, SWTOR will be coming out, shortly followed suit by some other AAA RPGs and MMO(RPG)s, and its hard for me to keep my eye sights on WoW beyond that Which I doubt MoP will be out in just a few months (2-3).

---------- Post added 2011-10-23 at 12:52 AM ----------

At least this model I can agree with WAY more one its day one mention of how it will work over Cata's.

[Deleted]

feel wierd about feral druid talents....dont know what to think

[Aerion]

feel wierd about feral druid talents....dont know what to think

It's OK to feel a bit weird about Druid talents at this very moment. Those talents are the most unfinished ones and will see heavy tuning / changes before the beta and the actual expansion.

[Aezel]

Blizzard is getting into a bad habit of totally revamping the game in every expansion. They are fixing things that aren't broken. They are mistaken if they think simply changing things will keep the player base interested. The reason a lot of people still play WoW even though there are better looking, better designed games out there is that they have a lot invested in this game. They have worked on characters for years, gotten play-style on their main down very well, they have collected a lot of items. To suddenly throw the game into a cycle of radical changes every couple years with a new expansion is going to do more to alienate the player base than hold on to it IMO.

[VanishO2]

Blizzard is getting into a bad habit of totally revamping the game in every expansion. They are fixing things that aren't broken. They are mistaken if they think simply changing things will keep the player base interested. The reason a lot of people still play WoW even though there are better looking, better designed games out there is that they have a lot invested in this game. They have worked on characters for years, gotten play-style on their main down very well, they have collected a lot of items. To suddenly throw the game into a cycle of radical changes every couple years with a new expansion is going to do more to alienate the player base than hold on to it IMO.

Totally agree. Changing the entire game each year, players could as well actually play a new game instead.

Sometimes, ppl actually enjoy that game style and that's why they don't leave it for another. It's the good and old "If I wanted to play that, I would play that". For example, If I wanted to play Rift, I would play Rift, not expecting to WoW to change to Rift. It's like if Assassin's Creed changed it's style at each game. "ppl enjoy Battlefield, so we tought that we could put some FPS action on the new Assassin's Creed".

[selimthedream]

All of the 6 talents you use should be VERY usefull for the spec and the type of gameplay (PVP/PVE) This is not the case atm.

Some of the entire tiers are totally and utterly worthless for certain specs. With only 6 awailable talents.... thats just horrendously bad design.

IN PVE
If you play a tank - every talent should improve you as a tank
If you play healer - every talent shold improve you as a healer
If you play DPS - every talent should improve you as dps


These are the 3 basic roles that BLizzard THEMSELFS have created and they are creating a talent system that forces a healer to take tank talent ? Thats 1 of 6 talents point gone for noting. THAT IS POINTLESS talent.

Some of the tiers are designed around PVP only and thats even more horrible.

Really really bad. PPL will realise this the more they look at it.

Ok I am sure other people have already commented on this post and I didn't get a chance to read through everything but I'll just make my own comment. Blizz clearly stated that these aren't the "only" talents. Each char will have abilities that are learned as we lvl up like hammer of the righteous for prot paladin or holy shock for holy paladin etc. The talent tree now doesn't act as a spec like it used to more of a utility tree so we can pick a talent out of our current spec like having ardent defender on a ret pala or shadow step for a assassination rogue. I think these new changes bring more of a choice to the game instead of just going a certain build up to the last talent point. I might prefer killing spree for pure dps but another rogue might prefer shadow step for pvp and we could both be combat rogues. (I don't play a rogue btw just giving it as an example)

From the looks of the new talents it might seem like there are 3 choices for each tier and they each represent a spec but that's not the case. It really helps to read the whole post instead of just parts of it and it helps even more to do some research before massive qq. This goes to everybody bashing on the new changes. You don't have to like it but don't hate it because you don't understand it.

---------- Post added 2011-10-25 at 02:31 PM ----------

I see EVERY class and every specc have BIG BIG improvements for PvP, besides Resto druids..... Well, now its clear to me, what i've thought since Cata came. BLIZZARD HATES RESTO DRUIDS for PvP.... This is just pathetic, we need some BIG improvement....

Hmm I must be the worst pvp'er in the history of wow but I can still survive against 3-4 people beating on me like mad while wearing pve gear. I'd say resto druids are pretty powerful in pvp.

---------- Post added 2011-10-25 at 02:56 PM ----------

I have read through almost all of the 12 pages of comments at the time I finished reading. I can see a lot of people both complaining and liking the new changes. I would like to share my opinion a bit as well: 1: This is the most important fact : "Talents are not set in stone". At the moment MoP is basically a pre alpha stage. These talents are going to change many many times over. They will be way different than how they are now, with a very low chance of staying same if they work well. 2: I am personally liking the changes not only talent wise but we just learn our abilities while leveling up instead of visiting a trainer. 3: It's quite cool to be able to change our talents mid encounter instead of visiting a trainer 4: Dual spec still exists so we can be both healer/dps. But I personally would have loved to see a third spec availability, maybe at a huge cost like 10k gold or more. As a paladin I'd love to have all 3 specs, retribution, protection and holy. The new class monks can also perform all 3 roles very efficiently blizz says but then again we don't know how they will work so can't say anything about those. 5: So far new exp as well as new talent system looks good, needs some tweaks for sure but overall I like the idea.