Warlock changes

[The Distortion]

With those new talents here I will finally feel like a real bad ass warlock !

[Deleted]

I'm actually gonna have to start leveling my lil Goblin 'Lock when this goes live.

loving the new talents, & the way each spec plays differently, shards for affliction etc.

The revamped pet talent made me drool, a Voidlord?! REALLY?!

[Jessicka]

So... you condemn the design for homogenization when you've only seen these talents? Do you realize the current talent system is actually more of an equivalent to the old glyph system rather than the old talent system, and the more-or-less obvious talent builds are just integrated into the spec itself. You already know a few things like Immolate is only going to be available for Destruction and Affliction has something unique called Malefic Grasp - why assume the specs are even remotely going to resemble each other in terms of gameplay, available abilities or strengths and weaknesses? I see that as a far less homogenized design than the current one where all specs rely on... 3 similar DoTs, filler nuke, proc nuke and other "unique" concepts.

One of my biggest complaints this expansion is that all three specs feel like Affliction, but that Demo and Destro have had bits added on in a cumbersome manner in an effort to achieve a change for the sake of change, while previously all three specs always felt so much more different; you're under the impression that somehow that right now I think the class is perfect - far from it. The new differing resources look like a step in the right direction for that playstyle, but until I see it and play each spec myself, I'll reserve judgement on the passive per-spec details. Again, given they're still out of ideas for Soul Shards, I think they're leaving it late and fear once again they're going to leave us unfinished at release.

"The goal is to have you sit to another next to another combat rogue, and this combat rogue will actually have different talents than you do!"

I just don't see from these talent builds that that is going to happen. Far from it, the subtlety rogue sat next to your combat rogue is actually very likely to have the same talents that you do.

Character customization was the original point of talents in the first place but overtime cookie cutter builds dominated the scene.

There is nothing here that says to me that is going to change. There might be occasional tweaks on a per-encounter basis, but as with Glyphs, those will be in the minority; there will still be one prefered talent build in the majority of circumstances depending on your prefered direction of content. I'm sorry if it offends you that I just can't get excited about a change that doesn't actually change anything and cannot conceivably offer what it promises.

[xskarma]

I like Blizz being sneaky with us, they sort of basically took away our choices when it came to making our spec. We now just get all the tools to be our spec, while leveling, and apart from that there is this completely new thing (that they have given the old name "talent trees") where you get to pick between different class specific traits.

I think some of you arguing should just forget that this is about a "talent tree", those are gone, this is something new under the same name.

And to me these at least provide some real choices, I don't like certain talents for my daily use, so I would never pick them for when I am out and about doing normal stuff. In a more competitive environment though I at least have a choice to take them, like Spell Drain for instance, could be a game changing ability, but I'd never use it normally.

[Hermanni]

There is nothing here that says to me that is going to change. There might be occasional tweaks on a per-encounter basis, but as with Glyphs, those will be in the minority; there will still be one prefered talent build in the majority of circumstances depending on your prefered direction of content. I'm sorry if it offends you that I just can't get excited about a change that doesn't actually change anything and cannot conceivably offer what it promises.

You still didn't explain how you imagine it possible for there to exists options where it would be impossible for players to reason or math out the best option for a generally useful build? I'd also like to hear when in the past have the three builds resembled each other more than they do now or in the future. You know you only have seen a part of the picture, yet you keep complaining and making sure everyone knows you're not happy without actually rationally explaining why that is.

But I sort of remembered now why I keep avoiding posting in here so I'll leave you to spread that negativity. Nevertheless, what's going to happen in the next expansion is: 1) Each spec will feel more distinct from the two others than ever before despite the facts that you can use Shadowfury as Affliction and all specs will still like dots like all Rogues like Slice and Dice. 2) With the options to change your specialization, glyphs and talents you will find yourself changing your things around and finding yourself unsure of the ideal approach more often than ever before.

[UnstoppableErasor]

Wonder if we will get the ability to rename or get different names for our demons. My scubbus got the same name as my manager so I am not user her at the moment.
Although it seems fitting

[xskarma]

You still didn't explain how you imagine it possible for there to exists options where it would be impossible for players to reason or math out the best option for a generally useful build? I'd also like to hear when in the past have the three builds resembled each other more than they do now or in the future. You know you only have seen a part of the picture, yet you keep complaining and making sure everyone knows you're not happy without actually rationally explaining why that is.

But I sort of remembered now why I keep avoiding posting in here so I'll leave you to spread that negativity. Nevertheless, what's going to happen in the next expansion is: 1) Each spec will feel more distinct from the two others than ever before despite the facts that you can use Shadowfury as Affliction and all specs will still like dots like all Rogues like Slice and Dice. 2) With the options to change your specialization, glyphs and talents you will find yourself changing your things around and finding yourself unsure of the ideal approach more often than ever before.

Too bad, hearing from the best of the best of the class on their opinion about these kind of things is important to the more reasonable people on these and other forums. I hope excess QQ, though it might keep you from engaging in discussion, will not keep you from voicing your opinion in these forums. It's sometimes encouraging (or sobering ) to hear from guys that know what they are doing with their toons and compare it with how you thought or felt about a topic.

[Deleted]

Jessicka is waiting for the " Spec Spells ". We all know how blizzard release some shining previews with no number, no sense, no logic except the "it's new guyzz and the soulshards will be a so exciting ressource ". Believe me

80 % of healing " talents " for Locks seriously... once, twice but no more man, I am fed up with silly promises ( my failarmor is crying ).

Until the "Spec gameplay" release, we can't be happy and suspicious, coz the Locks feedback is always ignored.


GC: Some classes however might get more than one new ability

[Slybak]

They've removed all the complexity, choice and theorycrafting, and replaced it with a talent system simple enough for a 2 year old. Count me as unsubscribed when H Deathwing is down.

Talent trees gone and replaced with 9 talent choices? Wow, immense possibilities.

Talent Theorycrafting is fun, but its probably fair to say its the kind of thing that very, very, very few players actually engage in. Most just look for the cookie-cutter specs online and, once they had what someone else said was the optimal raid spec, that was pretty much it unless something changed in a future patch. Most of the genuine theorycrafting will still take place in terms of stats and spell priorities, which is where it should be.

It's basic economics. Choice is meaningless unless there is a real opportunity cost, or something you are forced to give up that is valuable to get what you want. The new system might not be quite "there" yet in terms of providing those costs at every tier, but I think its moving in the right direction. This was something that I hoped they would do when the initial redesign for Cata was revealed, but it was for the most part a disappointment.

As for the Warlock talents, I mostly like them. Good mix of actives and passives. Empowered Channels seem iffy, at least until I see more. I like the differentiated resource system, and think this will allow for much more differentiated play. Really interested to see where they take Demo and Destro.

[BatteredRose]

Loves it.

[Derivatives]

Diablo 3 here we come.

[Jessicka]

You still didn't explain how you imagine it possible for there to exists options where it would be impossible for players to reason or math out the best option for a generally useful build? I'd also like to hear when in the past have the three builds resembled each other more than they do now or in the future. You know you only have seen a part of the picture, yet you keep complaining and making sure everyone knows you're not happy without actually rationally explaining why that is.

Ok, when I'm playing Affliction I get that nagging feeling I could really use an awesome cooldown right now, or while I'm playing Destro, I get a similar nagging feeling of if only I could put some Shadow Embrace stacks around to buff those DoTs, or as Demo Conflagrate would be awesome on those shitty no health adds. Each spec offers something that you miss, but can do enough to carry on without missing it so much you completely respec. None of those talents really jump out at me as being so inherently useful or desirable that I'd really miss any of them. The level 75 ones come close; it's a tradeoff between utility, flat damage and a cooldown. That's something I like. The downside is that that's also the only tier that can be mathed out, and honestly, my biggest worry here is that Sacrifice ends up being the 'optimal' one, since the people cheering it are cheering it because it bypasses potential bugs; not because it actually adds anything to the class - it literally does the exact opposite. In my honest opinion, I'd just tell those cheerleaders for that talent to go reroll a non-pet class if it's such a big deal to them, because it's obvious a Warlock isn't for them.

As to when the specs felt more different - not 12 months ago. Go back to the start of Wrath, or end of TBC and each spec felt even more different again. Maybe it's my rose tinted memories, but honestly the specs now genuinely feel like they went back to the drawing board, took Affliction as the template and clumsily bolted some bits back in from the other specs that you basically expected from their previous lives; while with Destruction going even further to throw things in to fix perceived problems with ramp up/burst that had already been fixed by fundamental changes in external mechanics.

But I sort of remembered now why I keep avoiding posting in here so I'll leave you to spread that negativity. Nevertheless, what's going to happen in the next expansion is: 1) Each spec will feel more distinct from the two others than ever before despite the facts that you can use Shadowfury as Affliction and all specs will still like dots like all Rogues like Slice and Dice. 2) With the options to change your specialization, glyphs and talents you will find yourself changing your things around and finding yourself unsure of the ideal approach more often than ever before.

That's your perogative. It's nice to hear the views from someone more 'hardcore', but I actually don't really see you disagreeing with me on the facts, but rather over whether it's ok or not for Blizzard to be missing their stated design goals so clearly and so early on in the design phase. As it is, those goals themselves are admirable, and I really hope they can acheive them - but looking at what they've given Warlocks right now on those talent options, well frankly, I'm just seeing them fall into that same old trap of PvE spec Vs PvP spec which was something they said early in Cataclysm's design they wanted gone as they saw it as a barrier to PvP in any case. I can't regard that as a 'good thing'.

[Hermanni]

Ok, when I'm playing Affliction I get that nagging feeling I could really use an awesome cooldown right now, or while I'm playing Destro, I get a similar nagging feeling of if only I could put some Shadow Embrace stacks around to buff those DoTs, or as Demo Conflagrate would be awesome on those shitty no health adds. Each spec offers something that you miss, but can do enough to carry on without missing it so much you completely respec. None of those talents really jump out at me as being so inherently useful or desirable that I'd really miss any of them. The level 75 ones come close; it's a tradeoff between utility, flat damage and a cooldown. That's something I like. The downside is that that's also the only tier that can be mathed out, and honestly, my biggest worry here is that Sacrifice ends up being the 'optimal' one, since the people cheering it are cheering it because it bypasses potential bugs; not because it actually adds anything to the class - it literally does the exact opposite. In my honest opinion, I'd just tell those cheerleaders for that talent to go reroll a non-pet class if it's such a big deal to them, because it's obvious a Warlock isn't for them.

I'm not really sure if I just misunderstood or you're contradicting yourself rather hard in here. Now you can't math them out but they just aren't interesting. Alright. The only thing the old talent system did really well was giving the illusion of complexity (or actually being really complicated for new players) while actually just carrying all the perks of your talent spec you always picked. The new system takes away the illusion of a choice and integrates your spec perks into the spec itself so you'll only need 1 click instead of 51 when you go respec and instead gives you a system that seems to be much more simple.

As to when the specs felt more different - not 12 months ago. Go back to the start of Wrath, or end of TBC and each spec felt even more different again. Maybe it's my rose tinted memories, but honestly the specs now genuinely feel like they went back to the drawing board, took Affliction as the template and clumsily bolted some bits back in from the other specs that you basically expected from their previous lives; while with Destruction going even further to throw things in to fix perceived problems with ramp up/burst that had already been fixed by fundamental changes in external mechanics.

I didn't play at the end of TBC or start of Wrath so I'll just have your word for that (although I've heard rather contradictory opinions on the end-TBC design.)

That's your perogative. It's nice to hear the views from someone more 'hardcore', but I actually don't really see you disagreeing with me on the facts, but rather over whether it's ok or not for Blizzard to be missing their stated design goals so clearly and so early on in the design phase. As it is, those goals themselves are admirable, and I really hope they can acheive them - but looking at what they've given Warlocks right now on those talent options, well frankly, I'm just seeing them fall into that same old trap of PvE spec Vs PvP spec which was something they said early in Cataclysm's design they wanted gone as they saw it as a barrier to PvP in any case. I can't regard that as a 'good thing'.

I do disagree as I do in fact believe they've to at least some extent succeeded in their design goals with the current talent builds, but as that's just a part of the thing I can't really stop you from making assumptions about the state of the current design and what else is to come. But if that's your take I'll be happy to chip back in in 12 months and say "I told you so."

Too bad, hearing from the best of the best of the class on their opinion about these kind of things is important to the more reasonable people on these and other forums. I hope excess QQ, though it might keep you from engaging in discussion, will not keep you from voicing your opinion in these forums. It's sometimes encouraging (or sobering ) to hear from guys that know what they are doing with their toons and compare it with how you thought or felt about a topic.

The exact reason you don't see me much in here is because I've our forums to attend to and the amount of pointless and/or opinion-based posts in here seems almost staggering to me. If you should actually want to see input from us in any subject it's best asked in our website where I can almost guarantee you to get an answer most of the time.

[Jessicka]

I'm not really sure if I just misunderstood or you're contradicting yourself rather hard in here. Now you can't math them out but they just aren't interesting. Alright. The only thing the old talent system did really well was giving the illusion of complexity (or actually being really complicated for new players) while actually just carrying all the perks of your talent spec you always picked. The new system takes away the illusion of a choice and integrates your spec perks into the spec itself so you'll only need 1 click instead of 51 when you go respec and instead gives you a system that seems to be much more simple.

I'm saying the other 5 tiers aren't interesting enough, or at the very least lack enough interesting variety to make the choices real choices; the options feel very much PvE Vs PvP as they presently stand. The level 75 ones on the other hand do offer DPS increases, and as such can clearly be mathed out.

I didn't play at the end of TBC or start of Wrath so I'll just have your word for that (although I've heard rather contradictory opinions on the end-TBC design.)

End tier TBC was all about Destruction spamming Shadow Bolt, it wasn't fun or engaging, but it was different to the other two specs. Early Wrath however offered very different setups all round.

I do disagree as I do in fact believe they've to at least some extent succeeded in their design goals with the current talent builds, but as that's just a part of the thing I can't really stop you from making assumptions about the state of the current design and what else is to come. But if that's your take I'll be happy to chip back in in 12 months and say "I told you so."

Feel free. I really do hope by that point they have achieved those goals; I just don't feel that the present talents offer the choices sufficiently well to do so.

[deathonabun]

"The goal is to have you sit to another next to another combat rogue, and this combat rogue will actually have different talents than you do!"

I just don't see from these talent builds that that is going to happen. Far from it, the subtlety rogue sat next to your combat rogue is actually very likely to have the same talents that you do.

I don't see this as a problem because the "spec kit" of abilities should offer two different play styles even if the talent builds are the same.

[Xtortion]

They've removed all the complexity, choice and theorycrafting, and replaced it with a talent system simple enough for a 2 year old. Count me as unsubscribed when H Deathwing is down.

Talent trees gone and replaced with 9 talent choices? Wow, immense possibilities.

S T F U and just leave

I voted HELL YEAH!

Ive been playing a lock as my main since 2007 when I first started the game. I have 7 level 85s in total and will NEVER change my main. Ever LOCKS FTW

Loving the overall look of MoP and loving the incoming lock changes in 4.3 and MoP.

Lock4Life

[Deleted]

Character customization was the original point of talents in the first place but overtime cookie cutter builds dominated the scene.

There is nothing here that says to me that is going to change. There might be occasional tweaks on a per-encounter basis, but as with Glyphs, those will be in the minority; there will still be one prefered talent build in the majority of circumstances depending on your prefered direction of content. I'm sorry if it offends you that I just can't get excited about a change that doesn't actually change anything and cannot conceivably offer what it promises.

Well if we go by the idea that there will always be an ideal spec/talent build. so either you use that or you're stupid. Wouldn't it be a lot better to just remove specs, talents, etc all together and just let you pick between 30 or now 34 classes? Same with glyphs, just remove them and just give everyone the ideal options. Professions, same thing. Races, there we go.

So far for the sarcasm.

I genuinly think things like the T4 talents for instance can be balanced to make it preference thing. Do you want a button to push or do you want something passive. It's like with trinkets, I'll steer away from on use trinkets and prefer procs, just because i feel this is more exciting gameplay. If they can balance them so that the difference only matters to those top 0.01% guilds than I feel this will offer us more choices than before. As in now you have 2-3 free talent points, in MoP you might have 6 choices.

[Bodygrinder]

I'm sorry but setting myself on FIRE!?

HELL YES!

-Foeralk

[Deleted]

Jessicka, I think you kinda stuck with the idea that "this new talent tree is the one thing that indicate the importance and uniqueness of each spec" while actually in MoP, its not. This talent tree is not something that will create the difference between each spec, instead, it creates the difference between each "player" which will have different raid comp, different arena comp, and different strat to kill the boss. That's their goal for this new system. Nothing related to the spec at all. You get your own unique spec from what you choose at lv10 or respec at the class trainer.

You choose your real talent at lv10, then get all the uniqueness of the spec through out the progress of lvling which we all have no idea what will change yet. Then this new talent tree is more like a seconday talent tree that we can choose. What happened right now is, all destro pve lock has the same glyph, same talent tree, nothing different at all since you are force to pick the most benefit talent for your dps. But with the new talent system, you dont have to do that anymore, they got all of those dps related talent for us in the lvl learned skill/ability, which makes sense since its what we all are doing with the current tree already, this time they just pick it for us. There is no different at all, since now, we all will be forced to pick the same-best talent for our dps anyway.

I'm saying the other 5 tiers aren't interesting enough, or at the very least lack enough interesting variety to make the choices real choices; the options feel very much PvE Vs PvP as they presently stand. The level 75 ones on the other hand do offer DPS increases, and as such can clearly be mathed out.

With the new system, you will have a chance to pick something different and play each spec differently from it is right now without losing the real uniqueness of the spec. Destro can have a very strong self healing and good burst, aff can stun, nether ward, and still have a strong multitarget dps. What you said about the real different that you need from the new system is just something you can only have in theory. Because in the end, its either about dps increase, or it will be about utility, if it go dps way, we all will have the math to help us pick the best one, but if it go the utility way, then we will have to adapt to each situation There's nothing more you can do other than these two. Do you want a talent tree that provide you the choice of your Fire color? or the size/name/appearance of your pet? or the cast animation? Everything about dps will always be calculated and people will have to pick it to maximize the dps. There is nothing they can do to make you to decide your REAL CHOICE out of it. The new system is a lot better than the current one which is absolutely "no brainer" that everyone, even with the different raid comp, different strat, will have to pick the same talent. While with the new system, it wont be the same. You will have to pick something that fit your raid/arena team/play style best.

IT WILL ALWAYS EITHER MATH, OR SITUATIONAL CHOICE. There's nothing else. Thinking that there's something more than these seem to be very confusing and unrealistic to me tbh.

[Deleted]

I'm sure that other classes will start whining about Warlocks and Blizzard will nerf us from 5.0.1 untill the next expansion