[5.0 Discussion] Talent Discussions

[Deleted]

Anybody else seeing the Ursol's Vortex -> Mass Entanglement -> Solar Beam incoming from balance druids in rbgs(/arena)?

I wonder if Nature's Swiftness (the +50% duration part) will apply to pvp aswell. Insant hibernate for 15 seconds? Instant Cyclone for 9 seconds?

[Braindwen]

No, not really. 15 yard radius for the vortex,, 2 second cast on ME that's easily interruptible (I mean you pull your enemies on top of you).
Gorefiend's grasp->mass entanglement could be pretty sick though. GG has a little bit longer range, and doesn't need to pull everything onto the druid (heck it can pull it away so they don't get interrupted doing it).

Honestly the mass of abilities being added could make PVP both incredibly fun and nightmarish to balance.

[Deleted]

No, not really. 15 yard radius for the vortex,, 2 second cast on ME that's easily interruptible (I mean you pull your enemies on top of you).
Gorefiend's grasp->mass entanglement could be pretty sick though. GG has a little bit longer range, and doesn't need to pull everything onto the druid (heck it can pull it away so they don't get interrupted doing it).

Honestly the mass of abilities being added could make PVP both incredibly fun and nightmarish to balance.

True. That could very well be more suitable if a DK is present

Vortex -> Wild Charge -> Entanglement -> Solar Beam. Depending on how far you would bounce back.

The mass of abilities could grant a lot of new, great, good, fun synergy, or terrible balance problems indeed.


So much possiblities. Would be nice to have more insight on all the particular things it does for the different specs. I mean, as of now we have no clue about what Incarnation will do for balance; ofcourse its gonna be a major cooldown, but will it be better than say wild charge (bare in mind you can use that to pull yourself out of danger by shifting to caster aswell) or treants?

[Deleted]

Where did Moonkin benefits go ?

[Vutar]

Ya know this new talent tree is being sold as "more choice." And as an example look at the rogue level 60 tree. If you are a pvp rogue explain to me the awesome "choice" you have their. There isn't one of course. It's take shadowstep, period.

[ELEDIN]

As balance druid i hope moonkin form will be optional.

now for the spec :

tier 1 - i ll go or feline swiftness (passive speed is always nice and turning into cat form to run for one point to another it would be exelent, exept if they change travel form to work indoors) or the blink vanish (i always love espape mechanics last person alive mass rez etc, or remove dots.)

tier 2 - in both tree i could find nice uses not sure yet (of they will change)

tier 3 - typhoon or mass entaglement depend on the situation boss fight etc. and if they change as easily as glyphs the ill change the for diferent battles.

tier 4 - incarnation if moonkin form is mendatory (just for 30 secs to change my apearance) or force of nature if moonkin is optional.

tier 5 - hmm etra aoe cc or aoe pull mass rooting and detonate shroomz i can find uses for both of them . i even like bear hug and im hoping for a nice animation :P

tier 6 - heart of the wild all the way i already can see lots of uses for this talent , situation that a healer is dead brez on cd pop it and for 45 may be critical to beat a boss :P or even tanking if the bonuses are enough to allow me tank for the duration. and who know cat form in situations i want something diferent and loosing some dps isnt critical for that battle :P

I actually love the new system love the fact that using an ability automaticaly change me to another form, more synergy bettwen forms i may feel like a druid in next expansion And maybe ill change my main spec if i can use balance abilities more in other forms...

[Braindwen]

Tier 1 provides movement utility, and if you don't care for dash/disp. beast you could always pick up the passive MS increase.
Tier 2 provides healing utility, if you don't want to heal others the 30% self heal will probably be off-gcd like similar effects.
Tier 3 provides slowing utility, if you don't care for the other two you can just pick up typhoon and be like live.
Tier 4 provides a disengage, treants, or a currently unknown CD in incarnation.
Tier 5 provides strong CC utility. If you don't care to shift forms for cc, you can drag stuff onto shrooms with vortex. The majority of t5 will require synergy with other classes to see much use.
Tier 6 provides benefits should you ever have to leave form, for example casting tranq. If you don't want to heal or heart/MSS end up poorly tuned, you can pick up disentanglement for an additional 20% self heal for a powershift.

Plenty of benefits, and in fact the entire point of the talents is that they aren't mandatory dps increases (or if they are, as in t4, they have competition).
Bah, I type too slow.

[Deleted]

Where did Moonkin benefits go ?

if you are referring moonkin form and other spec-like abilities; those will (most likely) be baked into picking balance as a spec. It could be that moonkin form will become a cooldown (Incarnation) aswell though.

Ya know this new talent tree is being sold as "more choice." And as an example look at the rogue level 60 tree. If you are a pvp rogue explain to me the awesome "choice" you have their. There isn't one of course. It's take shadowstep, period.

Ofcourse, but other tiers offer other viable choices.

Just look at the rogue 45 and 75 tier, let alone the 90.

Depending on comp you could actually not pick shadow step (think playing 2dps where prep or even burst of speed could grant WAYYY more survivability.)

[Deleted]

Its very strange that Feral Cat Druids gonna have Typhoon to knock away and Ursol's Vortex to grip everyone closer at same time, coz no more choices of pick:
1) Feline Swiftness
2) Renewal
3) Typhon or imp. Faerie Fire to slow target to 50%.
4) Wild Charge(no added bonus effects to cat yet) or Incarnation.
5) Ursol's Vortex, no choice again
6) Heart of the Wild

[Duilliath]

I have to agree with this. It seems like the other classes have pretty good choices all around (though warrior still seems like it has some that are specifically for dps not tanks and vice versa) and druids got a whole buunch of 'we want you to shift a lot for buffs and play a little bit of everything', which sounds nice for pvp but not so much for pve.

Have a look at Enhancement Shamans. I still don't get what those are supposed to take.

I rolled a druid in vanilla because I wanted to be a hybrid.

True dat.

[vaccine]

For Master Shapeshifter in PVE they are not going to want you to keep shifting out and back in to obtain optimal DPS.

I saw two good uses for it though. For parts when a boss is out of reach. For example the 4.3 Gunship encoutner has parts where melee have nothing to do and ranged are hitting dragons. For this part (or imagine Onyxia landing) you could throw a few spells whilst they're out of melee range and start the next phase with a nice fat AP boost.

The other point is adding burst. For example on Rag HC our P2 DPS is not really needed. The only part is the burst during the last World in Flames. We have to stand about doing nothing till he starts casting. Again this is a perfect opportunity to work up the +30% AP with some puny wrath's and when the burn phase starts you've got a large boost.

Overall though I'm really impressed with this change. Do remember though it's early days. Whole talents can be replaced and the numbers are not finalised.

[Doonarion]

These talents are fing masing i juts love the new aproach of acctualy having to shapeshift etc. +since pvper i juts love that i wil be able to take on alot of different roles in a unique way. This is what druid and pvp needed.

[Deleted]

For kitty
Level 15
Feline Swiftness: PVE one, passive movements speed will be more beneficial
Displacer Beast: PVP one, loss of DoT and random Blink.
Timeless Pursuit: PVP one, another sprint and another root breaker. Disentanglement kills this off

Level 30
Natures Swiftness: Meh, No heal will outheal the Renews 30%, while one a long cd. Instant cyclone on 3 min cd vs self heals from others
Renewal: The 'oooh shit' heal
Cenarion Ward: Depends on how heals scale, for sustained self healing, 30 sec duration and 30 sec cd. AKA a DOT mitigation

LeveL 45
Faerie Swarm: 12% armour reduction
Mass Entanglement: Not castable in form and may have situational use
Typhoon: Pointless; you knock opponents away from you...PVE=loss of DPS, PVP=VS casters it works against you, VS melee may be good to let a heal get cast when you low other than that they are away from you so u cant dps.

Level 60
Wild Charge:nothing has been stated for cats
Incarnation: PVP=Vanish and use of Ravage. PvE= Use of ravage in rotation(may be useful with berserk, assuming it counts as a core ability, and execute phases)
Force of Nature: depends what they do

Level 75
Demoralizing Roar: seems meh
Ursol Vortex: feral aoe deathgrip..perfect if a caster knocks back in AoE or pull casters in range. Good be good in PVP to pull into a Frost ring or Mass Entanglement...any other classes aoe CC
Bear Hug: will be PVP opener i imagine, since you full HP. PVE it may be quite good since you may be near max health more often. Depends if it works if u can't stun bosses. Could be deceptively strong.

Level 90
Heart of Wild: Gives kitties the bear tanking ability on CD, Value of being able to cast may be situational
Master Shapeshifter: Looked and thought could be good, 30% AP will be huge, then i saw 15 seconds.....you will be stance dancing like a bitch to keep that up.EDIT: Seeing as Cenerian Ward and Typhoon has mana cost and useable in form IF you can cast in form it will be alot nicer but 15 seconds i feel is too short
Disentanglement: PVP king and be unrootable again. 20% heal every 30 secs could be strong. Bears will like for tank swaps (or if they have the balls to do it inbetween boss swings)

Italics is what i think will be important for PvP and Bold is PvE.
Level 30's is going to be a look and see between the two normal coloured ones.
Level 60's is wait for more info
Level 90's MSS will should be the best for PvE but the fact you may need to stance dance is really annoying.

Apart from the odd talent it doesnt actually do anything there will still be Cookie Cutter builds

[Meejum]

I am really excited to see how treants can be worked into being beneficial for restos!

Like 3 treants come out, run to three group/raid members and are shield for them, or channel a heal or something. Sounds really cool.

[Elunedra]

Bearhug anyone?

[Deleted]

Master Shapeshifter is screaming PvP utility to me. Heart of the Wild is much more in line with traditional PvE talents.

It realy does scream pvp, but fucking hell 30% damage increase, it will be awesome for pve aswell, but i dont think that talent is ment for pve

[huth]

Master Shapeshifter: Looked and thought could be good, 30% AP will be huge, then i saw 15 seconds.....you will be stance dancing like a bitch to keep that up.EDIT: Seeing as Cenerian Ward and Typhoon has mana cost and useable in form IF you can cast in form it will be alot nicer but 15 seconds i feel is too short

Look closer. You lose a charge every time you use a melee ability. It won't even last for anything remotely close to 15 seconds. Constantly shifting would probably still incur a DPS loss.

Also, if you only need to move every 2min or so but need to do it rilly rilly fast when you do, Tireless Pursuit would be clearly superior to feline swiftness in PvE.

[Deleted]

Look closer. You lose a charge every time you use a melee ability. It won't even last for anything remotely close to 15 seconds. Constantly shifting would probably still incur a DPS loss.

Also, if you only need to move every 2min or so but need to do it rilly rilly fast when you do, Tireless Pursuit would be clearly superior to feline swiftness in PvE.

Oooh i ignored that i thought it was retarded when i saw you had to cast to gain AP....so that then guarantees that will be a retarded talent. More likely go disentanglement so i can pvp in same spec or depending what the other feral does go for the emergency tank one.
That assumes that we loss both dash and stampeding roar(if this goes then blizzard did an awesome job designing an ability for 1 expansion which is no where near OP), also its vary rare there are situations where you need the real sprint situations, most of it is moving with the boss or moving to target swap where the passive run speed boost is more dramatic.


Displacer beast with the 10 second vanish and DoT removal and random blink will easily be the PVP talent for balance and resto, passive runspeed and sprint arent as good.

[chisuji]

As far as Master Shapeshifter is concerned, its obviously the only dps tool in the final tree for a feral cat, Disentanglement being the option for increased survivability.....But the way I see it, Master Shapeshifter from a PvE standpoint is simply a frontloaded dps tool. As the pull is beginning, cast 3 Regrowths on yourself or spread them to you, the tank, and some other dude, who cares....and then go cat for the pull, pop your Incarnation, and lawl at the 30%/20%/10% Ravage spam at the start.

The only other time to stack it is in phase transitions when you can't melee, or whatnot. Situational, but still, its the only dps increase of the three available. Take it as you will.

Disentanglement: PVP king and be unrootable again. 20% heal every 30 secs could be strong. Bears will like for tank swaps (or if they have the balls to do it inbetween boss swings)

I haven't feraled for a while, being stuck restoing, but query...did they break powershifting at some point and I didn't know about it? Otherwise !Bear Form ftw for Disentanglement heals.

[dotnumb]

I am trying to think of what build I would go for Balance:

Tier 1: Displacer Beast - If the stealth works as an aggro drop, could have some good uses. If not, no-brainer with Feline swiftness.

Tier 2: Renewal - Seems like the only logical choice, assuming that Cenarion Ward would pop you out of Moonkin form (and that moonkin form will still exist)

Tier 3: Typhoon - This spell has been worth Stormwind's weight in gold for me since its inception

Tier 4: I am really undecided here. If Force of Nature functions the same as it does now (for balance) then I would be more interested in using Incarnation (if it provides a SP increase). Though I am interested in Wild Charge and could see its being valuable to push into a new eclipse faster, not to mention the added mobility of a disengage. Though I feel WC would need to add some sort of +dmg component to actually be competitive (and have a very low CD) with the other burn cooldowns.

Tier 5: Vortex - Think of add fights like Chogall or H rag. Having the ability to move certain mobs would be amazing.

Tier 6: Disentanglement - I would just view it as a free 20% heal every 30 seconds. Have to move for dmg, just power shift, bam healed. The others seem a bit lack luster/PvP oriented for me to really look at them seriously as a PvE Owl.