Endgame? [Video]

[Malthurius]

With the incentive of continued progression/upgrade, yup.


Um, no.

Topic asks:
Q. My question is, will you miss this kind of never-ending endgame?
A. Nah. But I wonder if Anet can effectively replace it.

Q. Do you think the dungeons will make up for no raids?
A. Not a chance. Too sparse. It's a gamble.

Q. Aside dungeons, are the open world dynamic events enough in terms of PvE content to keep the players who don't adore PvP busy?
A. Nope. DEs are an inherently bad mechanic as endgame, I feel.

Anything else outside of that is your baggage.

I don't believe that you can feel a sense of enjoyment from doing Lich King 100 times for the same reward that refuses to drop. At some point it just isn't fun anymore and the reward doesn't matter, at that can happen in a different number of runs depending on the person. For example, I'd tire of running the same place over and over in about 6 or 9 runs depending on how fun the actual fight is until I don't care about a reward any more. Others might be able to enjoy it 50 or 500 times before they tire of it, it's just all to personal goals.

I don't understand how dungeons couldn't replace raids. Think of them like raids except with 5 people. The incentive to do it is still gear, just not stats, but with the distinct looks on gear they still carry a sense of progression because you had to work to achieve them.

I also don't see how DEs can't be valid PvE content either, because you also achieve gear from doing them and that incentives you just as much as dungeons do to do them.

On top of that, you don't really need a never ending chain of things to do because you're not paying for your time on the servers, so it's okay to run out of things to do and go do something else for a change, like real life things or another game for that matter.

But honestly, I don't see why the reason to play just can't be "It's Fun".

[sacrypheyes]

I don't understand how dungeons couldn't replace raids. Think of them like raids except with 5 people. The incentive to do it is still gear, just not stats, but with the distinct looks on gear they still carry a sense of progression because you had to work to achieve them.

well that's the point, raids have something to them 5man dungeons don't : more people.
having less people certainly make it harder to hold when you lose someone but on the other hand, i can perfectly understand it feels less "epic" as the effort and coordination required to make a full raid succeed in just something else. i myself may miss that feeling from time to time, thus my hopes for large scale elite DEs (or anything involving more than 5 people).

[Malthurius]

well that's the point, raids have something to them 5man dungeons don't : more people.
having less people certainly make it harder to hold when you lose someone but on the other hand, i can perfectly understand it feels less "epic" as the effort and coordination required to make a full raid succeed in just something else. i myself may miss that feeling from time to time, thus my hopes for large scale elite DEs (or anything involving more than 5 people).

I led raids in WoW, and I really never got that feeling of epicness or coordination between my peers. Dps did what they needed to, Tanks did what they should, and healers healed. I never really felt like a coordinated team in a large group of 25, it was just me shouting at 24 people to do what they should. I personally feel more epic doing large bosses with a smaller group. 5-mans in other MMOs don't feel epic because they're not made to be epic, they're made to be stepping stones. They could make 5-mans the most epic thing ever in Guildwars 2 if they put any kind of effort in doing so. Just the fact that you would really, actually have to physically use your abilities together as a group to do 5-mans would make them just as epic as a 40-man raid in my opinion.

Large numbers don't make epic, just look at a lot of single player console games, they feel epic even though you're alone, like Bayonetta or Okami.

[Durzlla]

well that's the point, raids have something to them 5man dungeons don't : more people.
having less people certainly make it harder to hold when you lose someone but on the other hand, i can perfectly understand it feels less "epic" as the effort and coordination required to make a full raid succeed in just something else. i myself may miss that feeling from time to time, thus my hopes for large scale elite DEs (or anything involving more than 5 people).

I've never saw how more people = more epic, the way i always thought of it was less people = more epic, any ass hole can grab 24 other people charge into some dudes castle and kick the crap out of him and all his friends in unfair 1v25 fights, it takes skill to charge into the same dudes place and take him on with only 5 people...

As for the actual coordination of it, it really isn't epic, the hardest part is to try to find 24 competent people (including healers and tanks) to actually stay in a group for longer then the first 10 minutes of the raid...

[sacrypheyes]

well one thing for sure, you two almost sound like you never enjoyed raiding.

[Blznsmri]

Topic asks:
Q. My question is, will you miss this kind of never-ending endgame?
A. Nah. But I wonder if Anet can effectively replace it.

Armor/ Weapon skins. Vanity items. Things in your home instance. Etc.
Those are (semi)tangible incentives.
The primary incentive to do thing would because you find it fun.

Q. Do you think the dungeons will make up for no raids?
A. Not a chance. Too sparse. It's a gamble.

What makes a dungeon different from a raid? The number of people? Go back to WoW, scale ICC down to 5 person groups. They'd still be the same fight. Just fewer people.

Q. Aside dungeons, are the open world dynamic events enough in terms of PvE content to keep the players who don't adore PvP busy?
A. Nope. DEs are an inherently bad mechanic as endgame, I feel.

You say that they'll be Zerg-able? The Tequatl and Shatterer fights weren't. They all had mechanics (mobs to kill, npc's to defend, siege weapons to use, etc.). It scaled with the number of people present. People that outright die (i.e. don't get revived during their "fight for your life" thing) get ported at the nearest waypoint, usually a bit of a trek away (and lose money for the port to the waypoint) and can either come back to the fight and learn from their mistakes, or give up. The difficulty of the fight is no different with 10 people than it is with 80, so if you've got 9 people who suck at life and can't play the game to save their lives, you're going to lose. If you've got 9 people who are awesome at life, then you'll will (same goes for 72 bads/pros).

They'll be raid bosses without the fixed group requirements and stupid instances.

[Malthurius]

well one thing for sure, you two almost sound like you never enjoyed raiding.

It was fun the first time, killing a boss for the first time after trying for a week or so was really fun. Killing the boss in one shot for a couple of months for gear wasn't because you kind of just auto Pilot after that first kill because nothing changes. (Unless your raid comp changed.)

That's why I quit WoW, I realized that after I killed all the bosses once, I really didn't care, because doing the bosses again for gear over, and over, and over, wasn't appealing to me, and it was only fun when it was actually challenging and new.

[Durzlla]

It was fun the first time, killing a boss for the first time after trying for a week or so was really fun. Killing the boss in one shot for a couple of months for gear wasn't because you kind of just auto Pilot after that first kill because nothing changes. (Unless your raid comp changed.)

That's why I quit WoW, I realized that after I killed all the bosses once, I really didn't care, because doing the bosses again for gear over, and over, and over, wasn't appealing to me, and it was only fun when it was actually challenging and new.

^This, except for the reason for quitting wow, i have my own reasons, and this isn't really the thread to share them all lol

[Valeron]

well one thing for sure, you two almost sound like you never enjoyed raiding.

When raiding turns into a grind, which after the first few times it does, then they aren't very enjoyable. It all becomes a numbers game, because at that point all you are doing is raiding in hope that you can get something with more numbers. And for what? So that when the next raid comes you can do it all over again ad nauseum. Personally, I'd rather stick my head through a meat grinder than raid ever again.

[Desh]

I believe this to be the REAL gamble Anet is planning and the true risk of the game. To some this will be appealing, to others-- not so much. Anet is splitting their potential audience right down this divide I feel.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Trying to please both sides, like a certain other MMO, causes conflict within the community. Catering to both sides is rarely a good thing.

[Durzlla]

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Trying to please both sides, like a certain other MMO, causes conflict within the community. Catering to both sides is rarely a good thing.

And then with Anets B2P strategy (if you'd call it that), they don't need to make the game to keep you playing forever and ever and ever, they just need to make the content good enough that you'll want to buy it, so what? It doesn't last you a full 1 year per expansion, who cares as long as you enjoyed it right? not like you'll be wasting your $40.

[Odeezee]

stuff

tbh, you want GW2 to provide you something that goes against the design philosophy and the stated core mechanics of the game, so in all likelihood you will not get instanced raids though there are world raid bosses, you won't get power creep on gear so you will need to come up with a new incentive for yourself to enjoy the content or you will end up very sad, and there will be no inherently zergable content as that is a function of a static non-scaling system which is the opposite of GW2. this stance on refusing to embrace something new and playing it for what it IS as opposed to what you WANT it to be is something you and others who think like you are going to have to come to grips with or you will end up just making yourselves miserable and miss out on a great opportunity to just have fun.

i skimmed through your post and was going to give an passionate retort but i realized something; i am just glad that i can enjoy GW2 for what it is and just be grateful that i am not going to miss out on it thinking the way you do.

[Deleted]

i skimmed through your post and was going to give an passionate retort but i realized something; i am just glad that i can enjoy GW2 for what it is and just be grateful that i am not going to miss out on it thinking the way you do.

You're being terribly thick here. She's trying to discuss whether or not GW2 PvE-wise will provide enough of an incentive for highly-competitive and skilled groups/guilds like e.g. Wodka or Paragon to keep their interest and whether or not cosmetic gear will be enough of an incentive for people who like raiding in the other MMOs.

Stop attacking someone just because she's trying to make for a proper discussion weighing the negatives in.

[Valeron]

You're being terribly thick here. She's trying to discuss whether or not GW2 PvE-wise will provide enough of an incentive for highly-competitive and skilled groups/guilds like e.g. Wodka or Paragon to keep their interest and whether or not cosmetic gear will be enough of an incentive for people who like raiding in the other MMOs.

Stop attacking someone just because she's trying to make for a proper discussion weighing the negatives in.

Well there is no one game that is for everybody. For those guilds like what you mentioned they will have to stick with WoW or another raid heavy game to find what they are looking for. Not every game has to be the same.

[Muzjhath]

Actually, players of those guilds might enjoy GW2 as long as the content works and is well planned. Many of the absolute tops don't really play for the gear. They play for the challange.
So, as long as the PvE content that GW2 actually offers is really, really, challanging they'll play it. Maybe not grind it as much as they do WoW but if they can get a real bloody challange out of the game I can't see them not trying them.

[Deleted]

Actually, players of those guilds might enjoy GW2 as long as the content works and is well planned. Many of the absolute tops don't really play for the gear. They play for the challange.
So, as long as the PvE content that GW2 actually offers is really, really, challanging they'll play it. Maybe not grind it as much as they do WoW but if they can get a real bloody challange out of the game I can't see them not trying them.

Here's a good example to Odeezee: a well-thought-out response that poses an argument in favor of GW2 without attacking another person.

As for the argument itself: atleast in WoW-world the challenge is about what place you get in the ladder of guilds having downed the encounter as soon as possible after release. Ie. they fight really, REALLY hard for #1 spot, and the fight for up to #5 is still strong. After that the interest mostly wanes. In GW2 however as all that content is available from the get-go, simultaneously, there can not be such a ladder. Perhaps for a "who beats the encounter the fastest", but these kinds of guilds/groups want a spot that can not be taken away from them after they've reached it, so again I doubt that would still work for some of them. Of course, for some it would/will work and I have no doubt that some guilds and people will indeed compete rather hard for the best time ever and they'll likely have enormously fun time doing that.

[Valeron]

Actually, players of those guilds might enjoy GW2 as long as the content works and is well planned. Many of the absolute tops don't really play for the gear. They play for the challange.
So, as long as the PvE content that GW2 actually offers is really, really, challanging they'll play it. Maybe not grind it as much as they do WoW but if they can get a real bloody challange out of the game I can't see them not trying them.

Well of course. But that is up to the player themselves and what they want out of the game. If they are looking for a competitive raid PVE game then they will have to look elsewhere. But if they want a challenge then I'm sure they can find it in GW2.

However, the argument in this thread seems to be the longevity of the game and how it will retain players if doesn't have a carrot on the stick model. My answer (and the devs answer really) is that it isn't that type of game. It is ok to not play for a month or more. Once some new content comes, whether through a patch or expansion, then you can return and play.

[Fencers]

Whose this aimed at?

The guy above me. I was in a hurry and didn't click the quote thingy XD

People have said the same thing I could say a hell of a lot better but hears my 2 cents. Gear as a motivation is just fuckin stupid in my eyes. Pixelated items should not be my motivation for playing a game. I should want to play a game because I find it fun and awesome. If Purple pixelated items are my only motivation for playing a game then the game designers have failed to make a fun game to me, simple as that.

I don't know about that totally. Historically there have always been carrots to chase in games. From a high score to green mushrooms, dings, loots or whathaveyou.

I can't really think of any game that doesn't give players some kind of feedback for playing aside from the experience of playing. RE: MMOs which are traditionally meant to be long term affairs, this feedback is usually gear that allows access to high(er) tiers of that game.

Guild Wars 1 secret weapon was a B2P model so the compulsion was less ingrained to the core design. We're gonna have to see if it works in GW2 in the face of Rift, SWTOR, Rift and more games now abandoning the subscription model. With the "buy it & play it like Call of Duty" gimmick of GW1 being less so with high quality games in pipe with no sub.

I think GW2's success (or failure) will be a really important seachange for the industry. Just to see if it works.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Trying to please both sides, like a certain other MMO, causes conflict within the community. Catering to both sides is rarely a good thing.

Yea, we're gonna have to see how it pays off. At best, it's awesome. At worst, really interesting for the industry.

tbh, you want GW2 to provide you something that goes against the design philosophy and the stated core mechanics of the game so in all likelihood you will not get instanced raids though there are world raid bosses, you won't get power creep on gear so you will need to come up with a new incentive for yourself to enjoy the content or you will end up very sad, and there will be no inherently zergable content as that is a function of a static non-scaling system which is the opposite of GW2. this stance on refusing to embrace something new and playing it for what it IS as opposed to what you WANT it to be is something you and others who think like you are going to have to come to grips with or you will end up just making yourselves miserable and miss out on a great opportunity to just have fun.

Um, no?

The entire gist of what you are saying here is basically an assumption or fantasy on your part. You are literally replying to things I have never said, claimed, expected or suggested as wanting or desiring in GW2.

Here let's settle it and put our cards on the table-- I don't mind there is no gear system in GW2. I like that the DEs have consequence, dungeons as fun romps sound... fun. Vanity item chasing is a big draw to me in MMOs- huge. GW1 had an awesome story line, the sequel looks so far so good on story. Better even.

That is what I expect out of GW2, personally.

However, that is not relevant to anything in the thread. The thread asks if GW2s endgame systems will be comparable and as success as the endgame compulsion of WOW, Rift or EQ. Essentially if it's endgame will be as sustainable to hardcore PVE MMO players.

If your issue is that the thread's premise is faulty; fair enough. Address the topic starter as you see fit. But you have addressed me, who happens to feel GW2's endgame models (however well intended) are not comparable or will be as successful as endgame for hardcore PVE players.

I am aware of the philosophy of the GW2/Anet as well. I am aware the dungeons and DEs have different intentions as gameplay mechanics than those in WOW, EQ or Rift. Etc.

Attempts to explain the GW2 philosophy, gameplay systems and language [such as above] which supposes GW2 is "the wrong game for me" or I have an false expectation for GW2 are unneeded, inappropriate, wholly irrelevant to the topic and (very) terrible forum posting.

You talked about reading comprehension earlier and I am baffled how you can miss the point of the topic. And even more so how you have demonstratively [would be happy to repost & juxtapose as needed] replied to sentiments you... kinda made up about me. O.o

[Valeron]

This thread = A --> B --> A --> B --> A

is going nowhere, close it down

[Durzlla]

The guy above me. I was in a hurry and didn't click the quote thingy XD

I don't know about that totally. Historically there have always been carrots to chase in games. From a high score to green mushrooms, dings, loots or whathaveyou.

I can't really think of any game that doesn't give players some kind of feedback for playing aside from the experience of playing. RE: MMOs which are traditionally meant to be long term affairs, this feedback is usually gear that allows access to high(er) tiers of that game.

Guild Wars 1 secret weapon was a B2P model so the compulsion was less ingrained to the core design. We're gonna have to see if it works in GW2 in the face of Rift, SWTOR, Rift and more games now abandoning the subscription model. With the "buy it & play it like Call of Duty" gimmick of GW1 being less so with high quality games in pipe with no sub.

I think GW2's success (or failure) will be a really important seachange for the industry. Just to see if it works.

Yea, we're gonna have to see how it pays off. At best, it's awesome. At worst, really interesting for the industry.

Um, no?

The entire gist of what you are saying here is basically an assumption or fantasy on your part. You are literally replying to things I have never said, claimed, expected or suggested as wanting or desiring in GW2.

Here let's settle it and put our cards on the table-- I don't mind there is no gear system in GW2. I like that the DEs have consequence, dungeons as fun romps sound... fun. Vanity item chasing is a big draw to me in MMOs- huge. GW1 had an awesome story line, the sequel looks so far so good on story. Better even.

That is what I expect out of GW2, personally.

However, that is not relevant to anything in the thread. The thread asks if GW2s endgame systems will be comparable and as success as the endgame compulsion of WOW, Rift or EQ. Essentially if it's endgame will be as sustainable to hardcore PVE MMO players.

If your issue is that the thread's premise is faulty; fair enough. Address the topic starter as you see fit. But you have addressed me, who happens to feel GW2's endgame models (however well intended) are not comparable or will be as successful as endgame for hardcore PVE players.

I am aware of the philosophy of the GW2/Anet as well. I am aware the dungeons and DEs have different intentions as gameplay mechanics than those in WOW, EQ or Rift. Etc.

Attempts to explain the GW2 philosophy, gameplay systems and language [such as above] which supposes GW2 is "the wrong game for me" or I have an false expectation for GW2 are unneeded, inappropriate, wholly irrelevant to the topic and (very) terrible forum posting.

You talked about reading comprehension earlier and I am baffled how you can miss the point of the topic. And even more so how you have demonstratively [would be happy to repost & juxtapose as needed] replied to sentiments you... kinda made up about me. O.o

Sorry didn't read like ANY of your post, but is rift actually going B2P?!

If so I'm gonna do a backflip cause it was a fun game just not one I wanted to payoney for =D