Well, atleast I tried to repair the damage and get a proper discussion going, but I only got what, 2 replies? Personally I find the whole carrot-on-a-stick an interesting problem from design standpoint and would enjoy seeing some fresh takes on it, even if they didn't work for me.
But well, I think I'll give up, too.
Well it's a design problem for mostly theme park games really. How do you keep someone playing your game? Most theme parks rely on gear progression and that is done mostly by raiding.
I'd much rather have a world to play in that doesn't boil down to obtaining better gear from a power standpoint. Really what I want is a sandbox but there aren't any big name or big money developers willing to make one.
In regards to GW2 (and GW since it has the same payment model) is it doesn't need to have that gear grind treadmill to keep you playing. I understand people want a purpose to keep playing a game that they have enjoyed up to that point. But I just find the current WoW model to be lackluster at best (which is why I usually quit playing that game for 10 months or greater at a time, pick it up again for xpac and then quit again a bit later).
Well, I did also ask for possible alternatives. Gear progression isn't the only possible type of cyclic progression, there could well be other meaningful incentives and methods for guilds/groups/players feeling they are progressing and thus retain the interest. But I am simply not creative enough myself to figure out what those alternatives could be.
What about a status progression? Such as political status. I have always thought that a sandbox type mmo with the idea of controlling the world an interesting way to go. So you do your pve and/or pvp type things to gain status and political favor. So instead of housing (or in addition to it) you can control a city, a country, or an empire. Then you also compete with other players to vest control of that area, whether it be on a micro or macro scale, via different methods (pve or pvp) for ultimate power.
here's is my issue with this line of argument; first, are you in any of those guilds for you to assume you can speak on their behalf and know what they want from an MMO or GW2 in particular? second, why would you assume that the same incentives are required in GW2 to so called "please" the raiding crowd? and if your answer is because that is what it's like in WoW, Rift, etc <insert whatever gear treadmill game> then there is nothing more to discuss on that issue.
the issue is you think that these things are negatives, but refused to acknowledge not only the opinion of ALOT of people who resented the whole concept of the gear treadmill, who grew tired of the treadmill, and the most important group the developers of the GW2. and if you think that was attacking someone, then i don't know what to tell you.
none of the things you listed are incentives provided by the game. those are player challenges that the community decides to make important, so i fail to see how that is an argument one way or the other that ANet "has" to give players a specific set of incentive to keep them playing the game.
i have said it earlier but apparently i need to repeat myself, raiding as it exists now is an evolution of gameplay incentives to the point where it has become the norm, before it was popularized in late vanilla/early TBC in WoW, so to say that the system that GW2 has now cannot be a new evolution of gameplay incentives is faulty at best. people adapted to the "raid or die" mentality because that was the only source of progression that games that follow that system offer. someone has already mentioned this, but outside of bragging rights and all that fluff the main driving force to compete and complete content is the challenge itself, but that is so easily forgotten by many proponents who claim some form of stat/upgrade progression is required for GW2 to have longevity. if GW2 can provide that challenge for players then the community will find a way to make it competitive themselves, which is exactly the same thing they did in WoW.
to comment on some of your other points, the reason i answered your posts was because you exacerbated the faulty line of thinking that GW2 has to provide progression content akin to those provided in games like WoW and EQ. then you went on to say things like they will be splitting their potential audience yet they have been upfront about what they think is fun for the game they are making and that they would want to play themselves. i and others in this thread have shown you that GW2 has progression content, it's just cosmetic or if you prefer it's lateral as opposed to vertical progression but you seem adamant that it will not be good enough for raiders. and for some reason you are hung up on thinking that because raid style content exists in the open world it is somehow prone to being zerged without every taking into consideration how scaling significantly reduces the ability to even zerg in the first place.
if you really did want to present a sound objective opinion then first provide a coherent argument; first you say that upgrade progression content is required, then that raid content is required, then you ask such open ended question about what happens after launch like "how well will they update" and "will the content be robust enough", but then you say you have your doubts that ANet will be able to deliver yet provide no reason as to why. this discussion could have actually been meaningful had you not taken the earlier stances you did in this thread, before i even replied, and which you just compounded after i replied. it's a pity though, i was bored and i was looking for an invigorating debate. /sigh
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Please point me to where I claimed to know what they want. Saying "whether or not" includes both options and doesn't imply a preference either way.
I didn't. It was a question, not a statement.second, why would you assume that the same incentives are required in GW2 to so called "please" the raiding crowd?
Again, please do point where I said that ANet "has" to do anything. I merely presented a question with several different answers and I didn't imply anything beyond that.none of the things you listed are incentives provided by the game. those are player challenges that the community decides to make important, so i fail to see how that is an argument one way or the other that ANet "has" to give players a specific set of incentive to keep them playing the game.
Last edited by mmoc3b091e0ba3; 2011-11-06 at 02:39 AM. Reason: My mistake on quoting.