[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[SodiumChloride]

Outside of Mythic / Savage, perfect play is hardly a requirement. Oo

I usually only play casters.
Even I can tank dungeons no problem and currently I almost exclusively do hit that DRK-I-Win insta queue button because waiting 15 minutes sucks.

And you complain LFD/LFR is boring ...

You know why it's boring?

Let me put it this way, developer can either

a) decouple an individual player success from the performance of his/her group mates (at least in such a way that players won't drag each other down but can help each other)

b) make the content foolproof

And to be frank, "b)" isn't all that effective, as people will still bitch and whine over the tiniest of mistakes that might slow down the run ...

[Granyala]

Oh please...

You can make content and mechanics relevant yet still provide comfortable margin for player error.

Don't act as if it has to be Mythic Raiding vs Training dummy that doesn't fight back.

[Advent]

Well I'll be honest. My reasons for not wanting a damage meter are completely selfish. I came from WoW, like a lot of people. Specifically a raiding guild where mistakes were penalized and people were heavily scrutinized. After a couple of years of that, I grew out of wanting someone else looking at how I play a game and telling me--or advising me on how to do it. I don't play games for others to--essentially--be backseat gamers.

When I'm playing the game, sometimes--most of the time--I'm playing like crap. Often, because there's a lot of things I'm keeping track of, and it's easy to lose sight of some of them if I'm trying not to die, or if I'm just distracted by something happening on my end. I don't have a LOT going on around me, but sometimes I want to run a dungeon knowing full well that I don't have to be at 100%. Sometimes I want to play at 60%, sometimes less. And it's relaxing to know that whatever I contribute isn't going to be a severe detriment to the group as a whole. Because I like being around others--even virtually. It's why I enjoy group content. Because I've never met people who I can play MMOs with.

But having a tool around--widely used--which gives another player the ability to scrutinize my play, and then "offer" their advice on how to do it "better", is intrusive in a way I'm not comfortable with. Maybe it's because I don't take these games as seriously anymore? Or, maybe I'm lazy. Maybe I just like the idea that, even though I'm playing these games essentially alone, I don't have to abide by anyone's rules but the game's.

It's late, I dunno.

[SodiumChloride]

Oh please...

You can make content and mechanics relevant yet still provide comfortable margin for player error.

Don't act as if it has to be Mythic Raiding vs Training dummy that doesn't fight back.

That's not the point.

No matter how big of a margin you create, there will be players who feel "cheated" because some noob is doing 29k DPS instead of 35k DPS although the "margin" allows you to clear the dungeon easy at 60k DPS with 2 DPSers and the other DPS is pulling in 40k - or some noob fails a mechanic because he just didn't know, and the fight extends for 1 more min; lets not forget that even in WoD LFR level content there have been wipes ... that content has a fucking large margin.

This is human nature/behavior we are talking about.

You can't tune up/down/sideways but it doesn't matter when the base concept is to shackle everyone at the ankles such that any one noob can interfere with everyone's goals/objectives.

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Well I'll be honest. My reasons for not wanting a damage meter are completely selfish. I came from WoW, like a lot of people. Specifically a raiding guild where mistakes were penalized and people were heavily scrutinized. After a couple of years of that, I grew out of wanting someone else looking at how I play a game and telling me--or advising me on how to do it. I don't play games for others to--essentially--be backseat gamers.

When I'm playing the game, sometimes--most of the time--I'm playing like crap. Often, because there's a lot of things I'm keeping track of, and it's easy to lose sight of some of them if I'm trying not to die, or if I'm just distracted by something happening on my end. I don't have a LOT going on around me, but sometimes I want to run a dungeon knowing full well that I don't have to be at 100%. Sometimes I want to play at 60%, sometimes less. And it's relaxing to know that whatever I contribute isn't going to be a severe detriment to the group as a whole. Because I like being around others--even virtually. It's why I enjoy group content. Because I've never met people who I can play MMOs with.

But having a tool around--widely used--which gives another player the ability to scrutinize my play, and then "offer" their advice on how to do it "better", is intrusive in a way I'm not comfortable with. Maybe it's because I don't take these games as seriously anymore? Or, maybe I'm lazy. Maybe I just like the idea that, even though I'm playing these games essentially alone, I don't have to abide by anyone's rules but the game's.

It's late, I dunno.

I second this. Thank you.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I still can't be arsed to put in the effort and gil for the 210 version. Feels so bad to work so hard for an item that is worse than my current tome weapon.

If it at least would look pretty.... but ... not even that. ._.

240 version and customizable stats. /flex

[Granyala]

When I'm playing the game, sometimes--most of the time--I'm playing like crap. Often, because there's a lot of things I'm keeping track of, and it's easy to lose sight of some of them if I'm trying not to die, or if I'm just distracted by something happening on my end. I don't have a LOT going on around me, but sometimes I want to run a dungeon knowing full well that I don't have to be at 100%. Sometimes I want to play at 60%, sometimes less. And it's relaxing to know that whatever I contribute isn't going to be a severe detriment to the group as a whole.

I don't understand this mindset.
I get not wanting to to "Ermagawd 110% minmax". I rarely do that myself to be honest, because playing on that level IS stressful. But when I enter group content, I damn well make sure that I am (if humanly possible, we all know sometimes shit happens you need to react to) not disturbed/distracted by RL stuff and I try to play well. Say 80%+.

Maybe that's why I never got flamed over DPS numbers in WoW in like ... ever.

This is human nature/behavior we are talking about.

Yes there will always be assholes in an anonymous environment. I personally guarantee you, that even if you implement an individual-reward system, these same assholes would still flame you to death because "they feel cheated for having to play better than necessary to stay alive because the noob they wanted there to help them died".

@The Batman: Well I'll make do with the 230 lore weapon then. As a healer gear past a certain point is largely irrelevant anyway. ._.

[Eleccybubb]

Tbh they could just bring in DPS meters and just use the same rule they do with ACT. Be a dick with em then you get banned/suspended.

[SodiumChloride]

Yes there will always be assholes in an anonymous environment. I personally guarantee you, that even if you implement an individual-reward system, these same assholes would still flame you to death because "they feel cheated for having to play better than necessary to stay alive because the noob they wanted there to help them died".

That's exactly the situation I want to avoid.

Individual objective and reward. You are ultimately responsible for your own success. No one owes you shit.

They will have no one to blame but themselves.

Will it remove all asshole behaviour in the game? Of course not. But players will have one less excuse to be an asshole to each other.

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Tbh they could just bring in DPS meters and just use the same rule they do with ACT. Be a dick with em then you get banned/suspended.

Doubt SE has the manpower to police the game. They can't even control Gil seller spam ...

Laws without the capability to enforce them are worthless.

[Granyala]

That's exactly the situation I want to avoid.
Individual objective and reward. You are ultimately responsible for your own success. No one owes you shit.
They will have no one to blame but themselves.

That is NOT possible. Simple as that.
You either have team play or you don't.

If the others performance doesn't matter, you don't have team play you have a single player experience.
The whole POINT of team play is to rely on each other in order to overcome a challenge.

[SodiumChloride]

Again, no. That's the point of team-based play, you rely on each other. If you don't like that, then that content just isn't for you.



They actually do enforce it pretty well. It's why I like their stance on it, guilds can log and analyze, random dicks in pugs have one less thing to be a dick about.

Again no what?

[SodiumChloride]

That is NOT possible. Simple as that.
You either have team play or you don't.

If the others performance doesn't matter, you don't have team play you have a single player experience.
The whole POINT of team play is to rely on each other in order to overcome a challenge.

Not much more I can say when you choose to define team play that narrowly.

/shrug

Ja ne.

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You, uh...quoted it....

You seem to be attacking a strawman of sorts.

All I'm saying is current content design causes problems in the form of toxic behaviour resulting in the subsequent stunting of social contact among players.

That's all I'm saying. You disagree?

[SodiumChloride]

The thing is that you don't stop there, you keep talking about how you want that team play removed or changed. So no, that's not "all you're saying".

Prove it. Don't put words in my mouth.

I know you are trying to draw me into the argument and I refuse to partake.

I'm just stating facts and letting others come to their own conclusions.

[SodiumChloride]

Uh, you've said it over and over. You don't want to rely on others, you want your success to only rely on your solo play, you don't want the team to pass or fail as a whole.

It's funny, I see the exact same patterns of discussion, verbiage and so on from people who push these stances. So extremely similar in fact, that it's almost like many of you guys are the same poster on different accounts. Guys like Rym, Injin and yourself who seem to absolutely hate the idea of playing with a team, but insist on injecting yourselves into content that is based around said teams.

How is that having "teamplay" changed or removed?

How is having my type of content meaning the removal of your type?

[SodiumChloride]

What is your argument then? I've already told you that "your type of content" exists everywhere, in all manner of games. You're the one that keeps talking about MMOs and raiding and complaining about having to rely on a team.

As I said, I'm just stating facts and letting people decide on their own.

[SodiumChloride]

By people you mean, "Everyone else here who has already made their stance and feelings on the topic clear." as opposed to yourself, who seems afraid to own a position or even their previous statements?

Just pointing out the problems in current content design.

What to do about it, if anything, I don't wish do debate. It's subjective judgment call. ​

De gustibus non est disputandum.

[Granyala]

Not much more I can say when you choose to define team play that narrowly.

You are the one yapping and raging against a system w/o actually providing viable ideas.

I's always easy to say: "I don't like attribute X of system Y, make it better!11".
It doesn't make for a very interesting discussion at all.

Team work = working together.
Yet somehow you want to work together w/o it mattering that you work together.
That is by definition not team work.

Example:
Lets say you attack Boss X. You could solo boss X if you are a great player.
You are not. So you take another player with you, because X will be a lot easier if you duo it.

The other dude dies. You could finish alone, but you too fuck up and die.

Net result: you flame the other dude, because it is human nature to blame all other factors before we seek the blame where it mostly lies: within ourselves.

What changed? You designed the content to be "completeable w/o having to rely on others" yet you still get the exact thing you want to avoid:
players raging at each others failure.

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What to do about it, if anything, I don't wish do debate.

Well then... kindly drop the matter if you aren't interested in a discussion in the first place. Oo

[SodiumChloride]

You are the one yapping and raging against a system w/o actually providing viable ideas.

I's always easy to say: "I don't like attribute X of system Y, make it better!11".
It doesn't make for a very interesting discussion at all.

Team work = working together.
Yet somehow you want to work together w/o it mattering that you work together.
That is by definition not team work.

Example:
Lets say you attack Boss X. You could solo boss X if you are a great player.
You are not. So you take another player with you, because X will be a lot easier if you duo it.

The other dude dies. You could finish alone, but you too fuck up and die.

Net result: you flame the other dude, because it is human nature to blame all other factors before we seek the blame where it mostly lies: within ourselves.

What changed? You designed the content to be "completeable w/o having to rely on others" yet you still get the exact thing you want to avoid:
players raging at each others failure.

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Well then... kindly drop the matter if you aren't interested in a discussion in the first place. Oo

I'm interested in talking about it, the pros and cons of various ways to structure/design content, and possible solutions to existing problems.

I'm just don't want to advocate any one "solution".

[Cthulhu 2020]

@The Batman: Well I'll make do with the 230 lore weapon then. As a healer gear past a certain point is largely irrelevant anyway. ._.

Most of the gear for any class is largely irrelevant past a certain point if you're not doing the extreme/savage content. I'm not really sure what the prices of the items are on your server that would make them so expensive, but then again to some people, 250k each for 16 items (4m) is "expensive". I know on my server, Jenova, it's not uncommon to see people selling them for far less than the MB in PF. I just waited for when I saw those, while casually gathering the unidentified objects from poetics/law and doing beast tribe dailies and I had mine weeks before 3.2.

[Granyala]

I think somewhat between 3-4M. Not really a big deal, considering a single treasure map sells for 70K. Even casuals can make that money by the time they have the 80 objects.

To me the 80 objects are the problem. I don't enjoy any of the ways of getting them.
So to force myself through that just for some ugly stat stick would be nonsensical.

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I'm interested in talking about it, the pros and cons of various ways to structure/design content, and possible solutions to existing problems.

No, you are not. You are raging on about the perceived "problems" of the current iteration and that's that.

I have not seen anything interesting from you on the last few pages, regarding the topic at all and the few posts that try to shed light on some of your arguments/hinted at propositions get ignored.

When cornered you evade and hide behind Latin phrases, thinking it makes you somehow "look smart".
Here's a hint: using a dead language doesn't make you look smart. Even if we don't understand the sentence right away, we all know how to use google.
No one is impressed.

[SodiumChloride]

No, you are not. You are raging on about the perceived "problems" of the current iteration and that's that.

Err ... That's what talking about cons mean.

I have not seen anything interesting from you on the last few pages, regarding the topic at all and the few posts that try to shed light on some of your arguments/hinted at propositions get ignored.

... We are just talking in circles now since you won't even acknowledge the problems/downsides/cons the current system has.

Not sure why you are even replying to me when you aren't even listening to a word I say.

When cornered you evade and hide behind Latin phrases, thinking it makes you somehow "look smart".
Here's a hint: using a dead language doesn't make you look smart. Even if we don't understand the sentence right away, we all know how to use google.
No one is impressed.

It's a common saying. /shrug