1. #24601
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Viable, even marketable as, again, The Division is showing, but 3rd person shooter vs traditional fantasy MMO are quite different style of games. Definitely not my cup of tea for what I'd want from FFXIV. It would be an interesting concept for a separate entry into Final Fantasy series and could inject some cool life into one of the side brands like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles, though.
    Well that's what mainly turned me and my friend away from Guild Wars II. The game looks truly gorgeous and leveling/exploring was a lot of fun.
    But both of us prefer to play heal/tank. Since that didn't exist in PvE it was rather boring for us.

    Elementalist feels like "spam everything -> switch element -> spam everything -> swutch element -> spam everything" rinse repeat. You couldn't choose to
    e.g.: stay in water and heal people. Or stay in earth and tank. Nope super long CDs on everything, might as well switch instead of auto attacking.

    Division is a different animal entirely and absolutely NOT to my liking. The combination of "ego shooter with head shots" with "whittle down a mobs HP" just feels wrong to me.

    As for FF-XiV: I openly admit that in 4mans, there's already way too much DPSing going on when you are a healer. Doing Mythic dungeons with my priestess as holy was refreshing (even though I dislike WoWs healing model with the super small heals that barely get a players HP moving) but at least I could HEAL people again and not throw stones 80% of the time.

    As a last note: SodiumChloride needs to get it into his skull that you cannot design content challenging for solo play and then let 10+ people loose onto it w/o it going complete faceroll.
    The moment you ramp up the difficulty to accommodate more people -> you just introduced a baseline at which everyone must perform or the encounter will beat the players.

    What he wants is just not possible.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2016-04-04 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #24602
    It's a little sad that 80-90% is being described as a speed run. If you can't be counted on to put three quarters of effort into playing without it being described as a speed run then I suppose the pug community just isn't for me anymore. What arbitrary point does it not become a speed run? 50-70%? Is it literally half ass it or instant speed run?

  3. #24603
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I mean, if we're only talking about some boogeyman of a player who only auto-attacks and dies all the time and makes the run last 2 hours (Kidding! ) then sure, that's not fun, but does it REALLY happen? I'm not sure I ever saw something like that. It would suck, but lets not pretend it's some common thing that ruins all our days!
    Cause of bad DPS is people not chaining GCDs. I see it all the time when I observe random BLMs.
    They have 2-3 second breaks between their casts.

    Stuff like "Imma ice mage!!11" is exceedingly rare. So far I have not encountered it myself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Museigen View Post
    It's a little sad that 80-90% is being described as a speed run.
    I don't know man.
    80th - 90th percentile parses is pretty damn awesome.

    Most of the time I did NOT get that high during my raid days. :X

  4. #24604
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Cause of bad DPS is people not chaining GCDs. I see it all the time when I observe random BLMs.
    They have 2-3 second breaks between their casts.

    Stuff like "Imma ice mage!!11" is exceedingly rare. So far I have not encountered it myself.
    Indeed. Just sub-optimal play is not enough to make me start going on rants about, "Kids these days are lazy!"

  5. #24605
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Indeed. Just sub-optimal play is not enough to make me start going on rants about, "Kids these days are lazy!"
    90% of the time I'm way too busy playing well myself in order to have the time to watch others like a hawk. :X

  6. #24606
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well that's what mainly turned me and my friend away from Guild Wars II. The game looks truly gorgeous and leveling/exploring was a lot of fun.
    But both of us prefer to play heal/tank. Since that didn't exist in PvE it was rather boring for us.
    I tend to prefer DPS and GW2 didn't click for me either. Part of that was the lack of the trinity strategy aspect.

    Division is a different animal entirely and absolutely NOT to my liking. The combination of "ego shooter with head shots" with "whittle down a mobs HP" just feels wrong to me.
    Division itself aside, I meant the instance world, up to 4 player group concept being something that could be interesting to explore a bit. Like I said, Crystal Chronicles seemed like it's tried to step into this territory before with mixed results. Something more Divisiony set up for the instanced world and its approach to solo/group play might work with a more action RPG design. Crystal Chronicles would be my vote to explore the possibility, though, not a full blown MMO.

    I think the suggestion can work, but not for a true MMORPG where everyone shares the world. In my opinion, you'd need an instanced world where only your party shares it.


    I've been enjoying Division, but I only play with 2 other friends. No other gameplay at all. One is a more charge in DPS type and the other is wanting to focus on healing and sniping (stay far away from the firefight). So I think I'm going to have to change my playstyle to the tank type abilities and start drawing fire.

    Approaching it from an RPG mentality is the only way to accept it, though. Headshots are just "guaranteed crit" for whittling down HP is all.

  7. #24607
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sure, and that's ok.

    I mean, if we're only talking about some boogeyman of a player who only auto-attacks and dies all the time and makes the run last 2 hours (Kidding! ) then sure, that's not fun, but does it REALLY happen? I'm not sure I ever saw something like that. It would suck, but lets not pretend it's some common thing that ruins all our days!
    I guess maybe I am unlicky, because I see it all the time. Or Monks who just use only Boot Shine, not even bothering to build the haste buff up. I see terrible stuff in around 25% of the dungeons I run.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Museigen View Post
    It's a little sad that 80-90% is being described as a speed run. If you can't be counted on to put three quarters of effort into playing without it being described as a speed run then I suppose the pug community just isn't for me anymore. What arbitrary point does it not become a speed run? 50-70%? Is it literally half ass it or instant speed run?
    Yeah, I knoda thought by saying I just want everyone performing at 80-90% of what they are capable of would be pretty clear I did not want a speed run. Speed runs everyone is at at least 90-95% and no breaks, no talking, no anything, go in get it done, get out. That is certainly not what I expect from and random group. I do expect people to at least try though, and if you are at least trying, you should be able to get a minimum of 80% of what you are capable of. It's just that people don't try, or don't even pay attention, and just don't care.

  8. #24608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I guess maybe I am unlicky, because I see it all the time. Or Monks who just use only Boot Shine, not even bothering to build the haste buff up. I see terrible stuff in around 25% of the dungeons I run.
    I do expect people to at least try though, and if you are at least trying, you should be able to get a minimum of 80% of what you are capable of. It's just that people don't try, or don't even pay attention, and just don't care.
    Heh. If you support the current definition (according to you) of "team play", that everyone is responsible for the outcome of your shared objective, then you just got to suck it up.

    WoW has been operational for over 10 years. Nothing has changed. Players as a collective haven't gotten any "better". 10 years of yelling, complaining on forums, flaming people ... all for naught.
    Internet forums are more for circlejerking (patting each other on the back) than actual discussion (exchange and analysis of information and points of view). Took me long enough to realise ...

  9. #24609
    All this about people half assing it in DF, yet here I am having to AFK to answer nature's call on last trash pack before Calcabrina the other day, only to get back just in time to find the other 3 folks had went ahead and pulled the boss, so I got locked out...only to see they easily handled the boss and I ended up with 2 commendations.

    That run took 22-23 mins total, even with my untimely afk.

    Moral of the story: If you need commendations...now you know what to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    People have provided many good options here. But honestly crafting/gathering is going to be your best way to get disposable income. Even at low levels you can make bank off low level mats.

    I just don't understand people who feel so strongly against the relic. It's time consuming, but still possible to advance it even with only minor effort each day.
    While it's grindy as hell, it's probably one of the friendliest grinds I've ever seen. There's 3-4 different options for obtaining the unidentified items. The fate grind portion can be done on alt jobs. The items for the third step can be acquired well before one even formally starts that particular quest (same applies for the recently added step to get the weapon to 230). Not to mention it's one path to a 230 weapon; the other being lore + tomestone/whatever from Midas. I still give the edge to the relic due to future stat customization.

    I'm just now getting started on it personally (didn't play during 3.1). I already have about 20% of the unidentified items in a span of a week and a half from just doing daily roulettes. The new relic gave me the extra push/motivation to stop being a lazy slob and unlock the level 50 roulette (which I had to do about 10 dungeons to finish unlocking).

    So far I want to throw things due to my crap luck with the crystals, but I'll end up leveling up another job as a result of finishing that quest, so it's not the end of the world.

  10. #24610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Your entire debate isn't about time. Time is just an detrimental effect regarding the root cause.

    The root cause is effort. It's offensive to a lot of players watching someone AFK in a dungeon when they can do more. If they try and fail and own it, people understand and adapt.

    The issue has, and always will be some moron wants to watch netflix while running Totorak for the 663rd time, forcing me to have to play even harder to make up for his apathy.

    That's toxic behavior.

    The fact that the run takes 23 mins or 15 minutes is irrelevant. We're not mad it took longer, we're mad that you had no respect to try and help out to speed it up. This is not about going for speed runs. This is about pushing more than 1-2 buttons over and over.

    This is why I'm actually have fun with Blade and Soul. I can solo some group content and it provides a significant challenge, if I want to do it easier, I just group up. I always put forth the most effort I can in group content.
    You do know in Toto as s DRG one button is kinda mx dps if behind target

  11. #24611
    The Undying Butter Emails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    The main detractors for me are:
    1) the WHM staff is ugly.
    2) I know it will be nerfed HARD later on.
    3) I don't raid -> I don't need the player power.


    If your time is so limited you can't accomodate a run with weak players, you should refrain from doing group content.
    Yes I like speedruns and good DPS too. But I don't give damn whether my expert takes 15 or 23 minutes.
    240 version looks gorgeous imo.

    I also get the feeling that people say it's ugly because they've already convinced themselves they don't wanna do the wotk. As I said I know people who hold the same sentiment who sit around eso, law, allied and centurion capped for more or less months while running stuff.

    Have no clue where you get the idea that it's gonna be nerfed. MMO developers avoid needing anything unless it's completely unbalanced to the point of being unfair. The relic is going to be slightly stronger than equivalent ilvl items but that's it. One of the people I was talking about above though, had convinced himself that the 3.25 relic was gonna be 220 and 3.3 was 230, insisting that he had no reason to do it cause of that and not listening otherwise.
    Last edited by Butter Emails; 2016-04-05 at 11:48 AM.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  12. #24612
    The Insane Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    240 version looks gorgeous imo.
    I also get the feeling that people say it's ugly because they've already convinced themselves they don't wanna do the wotk.
    Have no clue where you get the idea that it's gonna be nerfed.
    Have screenshots for that? I only know the 210 version. WHM one looks like a broken Thyrus/Seraph haphazardly glued back together.

    Disliked the 210 version before I knew what was necessary in order to get it.

    Zodiak Relic set the precedent. It's reasonable to assume that they will ease up on Anima as well, when it is no longer considered current content.

  13. #24613
    The Undying Butter Emails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Have screenshots for that? I only know the 210 version. WHM one looks like a broken Thyrus/Seraph haphazardly glued back together.

    Disliked the 210 version before I knew what was necessary in order to get it.

    Zodiak Relic set the precedent. It's reasonable to assume that they will ease up on Anima as well, when it is no longer considered current content.
    http://m.imgur.com/a/vyXEi

    DRK and WHM concept art for 3.3

    When you said nerf I thought you meant in power.

    Yeah zodiak was nerfed in 3.0 when it became completely irrelevant and for glam only. The anima is already puss easy to get, even easier than some of the nerfed steps of zodiak, so I don't see any nerfs coming.

    I managed all my crystals in about 10 hours of fate farming, the dungeons took 4 hours and that was with 1 friend. I had my 200 anima the day the patch dropped, and then my 210 I got just by playing the game normally, trading allied seals, law and poetics for unidentified items, doing my beast tribes and daily treasure chests. There's no real way they could nerf it, and the only conceivable thing I'd see is making unidentified items available from more sources.
    Last edited by Butter Emails; 2016-04-05 at 02:00 PM.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  14. #24614
    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    http://m.imgur.com/a/vyXEi

    I managed all my crystals in about 10 hours of fate farming, the dungeons took 4 hours and that was with 1 friend. I had my 200 anima the day the patch dropped, and then my 210 I got just by playing the game normally, trading allied seals, law and poetics for unidentified items, doing my beast tribes and daily treasure chests. There's no real way they could nerf it, and the only conceivable thing I'd see is making unidentified items available from more sources.
    My prediction is you will be able to purchase 2 types with grand company seals and the other 2 will drop from Void Ark with no lockout.

  15. #24615
    i'm sure at some point they'll either nerf the 80 items to 40 or make them cost half as much tomes. that is the biggest timesink atm. they'll probably also buff fate crystal drop rate.

  16. #24616
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The issue with this line of thinking is the assumption that every instance of ineptitude is attributable to malice. The assumption that any given instance of less-than-perfect play is an intentional slight at your person. (While, of course, attributing all of one's own shortcomings to, "Mistakes that I'll just fix" or something.)

    It's almost like a form of paranoia, assuming that everyone is intentionally being bad for the sake of inconveniencing everyone else. And you know, maybe they are slacking a little. Maybe they're not pushing at "progression raid levels" of play for that Toto-Rak run. Are we really going to be so dramatic over it?
    What is this... I don't even.... /facepalm. I've had enough of you. No need to response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    You do know in Toto as s DRG one button is kinda mx dps if behind target
    Indeed I do. Impulse Drive spam.

    Allow me to clarify. What I am referring to is that you're actually pushing buttons. For instance in any (especially low level) dungeon I don't expect next level dps, but I expect you to be active. I've seen countless runs where ACT shows me doing 1200 DPS over the entire course of the run (my reset is set to 30s so it never actually resets), the healer doing 800, the other DPS doing 750, tank doing 600, then the ilvl 205 NIN doing literally 395. Honestly, just spamming 1 the entire dungeon would probably yield more than that. The problem was this guy was literally just afk running the dungeon occasionally pushing one button.

    The ONLY person in this equation that is an issue is the NIN. The healer, tank and other DPS all contributed regardless of their optimization. The NIN deliberately was just milking our effort. In my experience (as someone who runs a parser), this happened approx. 40% of the time. Still less than half, but WAY more than it should ever happen.

    I've sat in terrible DF groups with people who were god awful, but they were TRYING. I would push myself as far as I could go to help them get a clear (see Bis/Rav ex, A1S pugs etc.) I have 0 tolerance for someone who doesn't try and uses others to get what they want.

    I'll give another example. My friend refuses to DPS as a healer. It annoys me, but thats fine, I'll just tank in Sword Oath, wear all STR accessories (pre recent vit change), and stat STR. It was hilarious. I had less HP than the other DPS in the run. My buddy had to bust his butt to keep me alive (thats the way he likes to heal), and I tried my best to use only damaging attacks (i.e. as little flashing as possible, PLD, level 51 i think?)

    Result.

    PLD #1 DPS. Doing a solid 20% more than the highest DPS (Who was synced down). Effort is king. Even the one DPS said that was one of the most fun dungeon runs he had ever done. He was also running ACT and said that he was busting his butt trying to get ahead of me. Even if this dudes optimization was garbage, at least he tried.

  17. #24617
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    i'm sure at some point they'll either nerf the 80 items to 40 or make them cost half as much tomes. that is the biggest timesink atm. they'll probably also buff fate crystal drop rate.
    The problem isn't so much the timesink but that the effort to get people doing more old content means they split up the items across multiple resources, which is fine, but they still only do this for some of them.
    So i breezed through the esoteric ones, then currently im at the last few that either require poetics that are rewarded in smaller numbers from things that even as DRK have longer ques, beast tribes so you get one every 4 days per tribe -and only 3 of the tribes including HW tribes, or spam hunts if you can find a hunt linkshell or spam alexander gordias like 200 times.
    Its tedium because you either plan it extremely specifically, farm crazily to the point of burnout or just do it bit by bit and eventually reach the point the progress dramatically slows down because the types are limited to separate currencies. Reducing the amount means this problem still occurs, but giving more options to get all of them now means that it will still take a while, but you arent going to be having to do things like choose if you want to do your daily roullette for endgame or poetics for a few things.
    Last edited by dope_danny; 2016-04-05 at 03:13 PM.

  18. #24618
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    I'll give another example. My friend refuses to DPS as a healer. It annoys me, but thats fine, I'll just tank in Sword Oath, wear all STR accessories (pre recent vit change), and stat STR. It was hilarious. I had less HP than the other DPS in the run. My buddy had to bust his butt to keep me alive (thats the way he likes to heal), and I tried my best to use only damaging attacks (i.e. as little flashing as possible, PLD, level 51 i think?)

    Result.

    PLD #1 DPS. Doing a solid 20% more than the highest DPS (Who was synced down). Effort is king. Even the one DPS said that was one of the most fun dungeon runs he had ever done. He was also running ACT and said that he was busting his butt trying to get ahead of me. Even if this dudes optimization was garbage, at least he tried.
    That's exactly what my PLD friend does with Healers who do not DPS, lol.

  19. #24619
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    What is this... I don't even.... /facepalm. I've had enough of you. No need to response.
    Ok? Then why did you reply? Just to get that snipe out?

    Other people managed to discuss it just fine, you always seem to need to go down this particular path, though.

    In my experience (as someone who runs a parser), this happened approx. 40% of the time. Still less than half, but WAY more than it should ever happen.
    Yeah, like we discussed already, it can suck when you run into a flat out "I'm a ice mage!" type of guy, but it's so rare. 40% seems like some incredible fantasy number. And when I did see players like that, my first instinct wasn't to assume that they were intentionally being bad for the sake of it, or "leeching off of me" or whatever.

    In other words, like I said, I didn't automatically attribute any issues to malice.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2016-04-05 at 04:20 PM.

  20. #24620
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    [FONT=Verdana]Yeah, like we discussed already, it can suck when you run into a flat out "I'm a ice mage!" type of guy, but it's so rare. 40% seems like some incredible fantasy number. And when I did see players like that, my first instinct wasn't to assume that they were intentionally being bad for the sake of it, or "leeching off of me" or whatever.
    I said absolutely nothing regarding an "ice mage" type of mentality. What I referred to was lack of effort. You're referring to ignorance. These are 2 very different situations.

    You then assume I judge these players based on their skill when my response above clearly detailed that I do not judge based on skill (I used word optimization, but they are synonymous). I judge them based on their effort. I can tell effort by looking at my parser and seeing what abilities they are using and how many of them they are using. If I do 40 abilities (see casts) in a fight, and you do 11. That's a red flag that says you're half assing it. I could argue the person is doing even less than half assing it. That's what I am talking about, not being bad or adhering to some ignorant roleplaying dream.

    Easily 40% of the time I see players who are deliberately doing as little as possible to abate the chore of running dungeons daily. Anyone who runs a parser sees it.

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